JacksBratt

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I am going to fall on my sword here and state that I am pre trib.

The reasons for this are as speculative as those for mid and post. To deny a rapture at all begs the question to those that do not sleep and who will be caught up in the clouds to meet their savior in the air.

My reasons are this:

1/ We are to comfort each other with the thoughts. I'm not comforted with the thoughts of going through the hell of the great tribulation.

2/We meet our savior in the clouds... He does not descend to the earth at this time... We don't meet Him and come down.. We meet Him and go for our judgement, rewards, marriage of the bride and marriage feast. Just look at the Jewish marriage. The groom goes and prepares a place and can come at any time for his bride.

3/ If the one world government is to carry out as the bible portrays... how many Christians will live the 7 years. We cannot take the mark... or we will be forever damned.. But without the mark you cannot buy, sell, work, travel.... and everyone else will be out to hunt you down.

So, how many are going to survive to the end... for the "post" rapture to be counted as those who join the "dead who rise first"? I bet...........zero. nobody will be left to ascend to the clouds after the dead in Christ rise.

4/ We are the bride of Christ and we are to return with Him to fight at Armageddon... Do we, then, do a great "U" turn as we rise to meet our savior and then turn around to join in the battle?

5/ The event comes as a surprise... Mid trip would be easy to calculate, as would the post trib... we know that this is a 7 year period and it would be easy to predict.
The only surprise event will be the pre trib rapture that can happen at any moment now. We are to be ready. How can you worry about being ready if the tribulation has not yet begun and you hold to the mid or post trib view?

6/There are estimated 2.2 billion Christians in the world. Can you imagine trying to justify the murder or execution of this number of people? Which is what would have to take place.

7/ Jesus stated that He would never leave me or forsake me. The "one that restrains" is believed to be the Holy Spirit, who was sent in Jesus place, to comfort us. The "one that restrains" will be removed from the earth for the tribulation to take place.

If Christ removes the one He sent to comfort us yet leaves us here... He is then forsaking us and leaving us alone. He promised not to do this.

I believe that when the Rapture takes place, the church (bride of Christ) or all Christians, are removed as well as the "one who restrains" who is the Holy Spirit.

This leaves Satan and his ilk to run wild and do as he will....


This argument can go on and on. I accept that others do not hold the same belief as I do. I don't condemn them, criticize them, or condescend them as not knowing scripture. Many theologians with much more biblical knowledge than I, have argued both sides of this debate.
 
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With only 2 (Enoch & Elijah) exceptions, every man born so far has died. There's going to be a LOT more during the tribulation. Why would a car or plane crash be so much worse?

edit - FWIW, I do not believe in pre trib rapture, I am simply pointing out a flaw in your logic.

I'm not saying death would be worse, i'm saying that people who think God would be negligent are wrong, because we can all at least agree that God is perfect.
 
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I am going to fall on my sword here and state that I am pre trib.

The reasons for this are as speculative as those for mid and post. To deny a rapture at all begs the question to those that do not sleep and who will be caught up in the clouds to meet their savior in the air.

My reasons are this:

1/ We are to comfort each other with the thoughts. I'm not comforted with the thoughts of going through the hell of the great tribulation.

2/We meet our savior in the clouds... He does not descend to the earth at this time... We don't meet Him and come down.. We meet Him and go for our judgement, rewards, marriage of the bride and marriage feast. Just look at the Jewish marriage. The groom goes and prepares a place and can come at any time for his bride.

3/ If the one world government is to carry out as the bible portrays... how many Christians will live the 7 years. We cannot take the mark... or we will be forever damned.. But without the mark you cannot buy, sell, work, travel.... and everyone else will be out to hunt you down.

So, how many are going to survive to the end... for the "post" rapture to be counted as those who join the "dead who rise first"? I bet...........zero. nobody will be left to ascend to the clouds after the dead in Christ rise.

4/ We are the bride of Christ and we are to return with Him to fight at Armageddon... Do we, then, do a great "U" turn as we rise to meet our savior and then turn around to join in the battle?

5/ The event comes as a surprise... Mid trip would be easy to calculate, as would the post trib... we know that this is a 7 year period and it would be easy to predict.
The only surprise event will be the pre trib rapture that can happen at any moment now. We are to be ready. How can you worry about being ready if the tribulation has not yet begun and you hold to the mid or post trib view?

6/There are estimated 2.2 billion Christians in the world. Can you imagine trying to justify the murder or execution of this number of people? Which is what would have to take place.

7/ Jesus stated that He would never leave me or forsake me. The "one that restrains" is believed to be the Holy Spirit, who was sent in Jesus place, to comfort us. The "one that restrains" will be removed from the earth for the tribulation to take place.

If Christ removes the one He sent to comfort us yet leaves us here... He is then forsaking us and leaving us alone. He promised not to do this.

I believe that when the Rapture takes place, the church (bride of Christ) or all Christians, are removed as well as the "one who restrains" who is the Holy Spirit.

This leaves Satan and his ilk to run wild and do as he will....


This argument can go on and on. I accept that others do not hold the same belief as I do. I don't condemn them, criticize them, or condescend them as not knowing scripture. Many theologians with much more biblical knowledge than I, have argued both sides of this debate.
My friend this is done with so much love, thank you. However, 1 Thessalonians says "In the clouds" refers to revelations where God gives John the vision of the people who are described as "These are they who have overcome"
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Coleton Bryce Ritmanich said:
Prepare for a barrage of post with twisted scripture, and/or verses about the Second Coming. You've been warned.
Btw, A Pre-Trib Rapture is only made up by the people too scared to face the Great Tribulations.
Yes, your right
Indeed. Even Paul and the Apostles endured hardships and tribulations while proclaiming the Gospel of Christ......I am post trib-pre wrath.........

Revelation 2:10 "tribulation 10 days"
Revelation 2:10 No yet one thou be fearing! which-things thou are being about to be suffering. Behold! the Devil is being about to be casting ye into a prison<5438>, that ye may be being tried.
And ye shall be having Tribulation<2347> of ten days,
Be thou becoming! faithfull until death! and I shall be giving to thee the crown of the life.
Matthew 24:9
Then they shall be delivering ye up in to tribulation and shall be killing ye
and ye shall be being hated by all of the nations because of the Name of Me
Mark 13:9
Yet be ye looking out yeselves!
For they shall be delivering ye up into Sanhedrins and into Synagogues, and ye shall be being lashed<1194>
and upon Governors and Kings to be standing on account of Me, into a witness/testimony to them.
Luke 21:12
Yet before all of these, they shall be laying the hands upon ye and shall be persecuting/pursuing ye,
delivering ye up into the Synagogues and Prisons
,
being led upon Kings and Governors on account of the Name of Me
========================
The trials and tribulation/distress of Paul:

2 Corinthians 11
22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? I am speaking like I am out of my mind, but I am so much more:
in harder labor,
in more imprisonments,
in worse beatings,
in frequent danger of death.
24 By Judeans five times forty minus one.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods,
once I was stoned,
three times I was shipwrecked. I spent a night and a day in the open sea.
26 In my frequent journeys, I have been in dangers of rivers
and to dangers of bandits,
in dangers from fellow race,
from the Gentiles,
in city and in wilderness,
in danger on the sea
and to dangers in false brothers,
27 in labor and toil and often without sleep,
in hunger and thirst,
and often without food, in cold and exposure.
========================
The word "TRIBULATION" does not occur in Luke's Gospel.
Has anyone noticed that?

Daniel 12:1

"In that time Michael shall stand-up, the chief/prince, the great, the one, standing over sons of thy people.
And time of distress<06869>, which not occurred since to become of a nation, until the time, that.
And in that time, thy people shall escape<4422>, Every of the one being found being written in scroll. [Luke 21:23-36]

Matthew 24:
9 - “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
21 for then shall be great Tribulation<2347>, such as was not from the beginning of world till now, no, nor may be becoming

Mark 13:19

For in those days shall be tribulation<2347> such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Luke rather uses great distress and wrath upon the Jews [which I and many others view happened in 70ad]

Luke 21:
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress<318> in the land and wrath upon this people.

36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching<69>, in every season<2540> beseeching<1189> that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming
and to stand before the Son of the Man.[Daniel 12:1]
 
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Indeed. Even Paul and the Apostles endured hardships and tribulations while proclaiming the Gospel of Christ......I am post trib-pre wrath.........

Matthew 24:9
Then they shall be delivering ye up in to tribulation and shall be killing ye
and ye shall be being hated by all of the nations because of the Name of Me
Mark 13:9
Yet be ye looking out yeselves!
For they shall be delivering ye up into Sanhedrins and into Synagogues, and ye shall be being lashed<1194>
and upon Governors and Kings to be standing on account of Me, into a witness/testimony to them.
Luke 21:12
Yet before all of these, they shall be laying the hands upon ye and shall be persecuting/pursuing ye,
delivering ye up into the Synagogues and Prisons
,
being led upon Kings and Governors on account of the Name of Me
========================
The trials and tribulation/distress of Paul:

2 Corinthians 11
22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? I am speaking like I am out of my mind, but I am so much more:
in harder labor,
in more imprisonments,
in worse beatings,
in frequent danger of death.
24 By Judeans five times forty minus one.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods,
once I was stoned,
three times I was shipwrecked. I spent a night and a day in the open sea.
26 In my frequent journeys, I have been in dangers of rivers
and to dangers of bandits,
in dangers from fellow race,
from the Gentiles,
in city and in wilderness,
in danger on the sea
and to dangers in false brothers,
27 in labor and toil and often without sleep,
in hunger and thirst,
and often without food, in cold and exposure.
========================
The word "TRIBULATION" does not occur in Luke's Gospel.

Some people confuse Post-Trib Rapture with the Second Coming. The second coming involves the same ideas but not exactly the same events.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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oh boy, another anti-(Pre)Rapture thread.... :unamused::unamused:
No, more like against the demon doctrine in Dispensationalism.
The Saints did/will go thru tribulations up until the final wrath is poured out on Jerusalem [much like what happened in the 1st century leading up to the final Wrath poured out upon Jerusalem in 70ad......
The 1st century Saints escaped the wrath upon Jerusalem by escaping out of Judea.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matthew 24:16
then those in the Judea let them be fleeing! into the mountains

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Reve 11:2/13:10]

The same 70ad event shown in Revelation 13:

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance<5281> and the faith of the Saints

But did/will escape the wrath [those who follows Jesus instruction in

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God didn't appoint us to wrath
, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library
.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking. So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place.
No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture. This feature is its…
=================
The Rapture!
This morning, I've been struggling with the rapture. Some very faithful prophets are saying it will be pre-tribulation, but the Bible says that those who endure to the end will be saved, and all of that. So confusing! Both the pre-trib camp and the post-trib camp have good points, that's why it's so confusing.
 
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Willie T

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Can anyone who believe there will be a rapture before the great tribulation, tell me where it is in the bible.
Can anyone even show where a future event named "The Great Tribulation" is even mentioned? Ya can't, because no such event is ever mentioned.
 
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Can anyone even show where a future event named "The Great Tribulation" is even mentioned? Ya can't, because no such event is ever mentioned.

Challenge accepted! Read Matthew 24:21!
 
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Childofgodharrison

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Can anyone even show where a future event named "The Great Tribulation" is even mentioned? Ya can't, because no such event is ever mentioned.
Matthew 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Revelation 7:14 - And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
 
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Childofgodharrison

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Can anyone even show where a future event named "The Great Tribulation" is even mentioned? Ya can't, because no such event is ever mentioned.
Matthew 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Revelation 7:14 - And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
 
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Childofgodharrison

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Can anyone even show where a future event named "The Great Tribulation" is even mentioned? Ya can't, because no such event is ever mentioned.
Matthew 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Revelation 7:14 - And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
 
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Matthew 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Revelation 7:14 - And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Well, I know these are very important scriptures, but three of the same posts? Is that really necessary or is the site glitching out?
 
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Childofgodharrison

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Well you have very few who can answer your post. And why? It is not in scripture. It has to be twisted into a formula that can create a "pre-trib" taking of the Church while sinners stay on earth scenario. None of it makes sense and those who believe in it can not make sense of it either. This is why your post has no one to help you with scripture.
Blessings
Right
 
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Childofgodharrison

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Well, I know these are very important scriptures, but three of the same posts? Is that really necessary or is the site glitching out?
Yes the site is not showing the right alerts, you have to hunt them down
 
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JacksBratt

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My friend this is done with so much love, thank you. However, 1 Thessalonians says "In the clouds" refers to revelations where God gives John the vision of the people who are described as "These are they who have overcome"
So, what happens to someone who you have been witnessing to for years.. a tough case... but they finally accept Christ and then the tribulation starts... a new baby Christian... are they going to have the strength to resist the mark... maybe be decapitated?

What do you say to the innocent 12 year old child, just baptized.. and now have to face the events of this time?

Is God going to put my 82 year old mother through all of this? As what, a test?

I don't believe that those who have had the faith to accept Christ as their savior, and are striving to live a life that would shine for Jesus, are going to face the record breaking devastation of the great tribulation.

I also believe that the tribulation will be when the righteous are judged, rewarded and the marriage of Christ and His bride take place, along with the marriage feast.... Then, we return with Christ at the end.
 
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Is God going to put my 82 year old mother through all of this? As what, a test?

No. That would be Satan.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Those in verse 11 above cannot be under the blood of the Lamb, and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

.
 
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So, what happens to someone who you have been witnessing to for years.. a tough case... but they finally accept Christ and then the tribulation starts... a new baby Christian... are they going to have the strength to resist the mark... maybe be decapitated?

What do you say to the innocent 12 year old child, just baptized.. and now have to face the events of this time?

Is God going to put my 82 year old mother through all of this? As what, a test?

I don't believe that those who have had the faith to accept Christ as their savior, and are striving to live a life that would shine for Jesus, are going to face the record breaking devastation of the great tribulation.

I also believe that the tribulation will be when the righteous are judged, rewarded and the marriage of Christ and His bride take place, along with the marriage feast.... Then, we return with Christ at the end.

The Lord Comes as a "Thief in the Night." If they are truly saved, there won't be any problems, as they will learn to rely only on Jesus Christ.
 
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