Paul was still keeping the Feast Days years after Jesus death, but weren't they abolished?

Torah1st2019 · Jun 4, 2019

Shimshon said:
The testimony of Yeshua is the command of God. To follow the commandments of God is to testify about Yeshua. And I don't mean just speak to others, or debate on a forum. Our very lives are to be a witness of the testimony of Yeshua. This is the command of God, and what all his commandments lead to and represent. All God's commandments testify about Yeshua. But, the testimony alone does not save you. You MUST come to the One who is offering the gift. You must become one with the Holy One of Israel.

Do you find it hard to respond to what I am presenting? That is because I am telling you the truth. They teach us in school to repeat what we have memorized. That is the only way we are going to pass. When I went to college I had professors that gave open book tests. You had to apply the concepts to get the answers. They designed tests that 60% would fail so everyone's grade had to be based on a curve. I analyze data for a living. I was a self-centered hedonist who became a believer. As I read the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation (intently), things did not line up with what my pastor was telling me. I saw Matt 7:21-23 and it scares the **** out of me. I read, I prayed, I analyzed. Big organizations are controlled by "spiritual wickedness in high places" that is how satan deceives the whole world. Your pastor is not going to pursue anything. What I am saying, he/she will discount it. You have been hearing the same stuff every week for years, why not research own your own?

All I am saying is investigate before you invest your eternity on what you have been “told”. Maybe I am a lunatic on a forum or maybe there is truth to what I am saying. You can see for yourself the Messiah clearly states but “if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17 in black and white

Torah1st2019 · Jun 4, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
They could certainly still honor God but celrbrating the Passover feasts and as well as others. They are not forbidden.

Although widely accepted, they are clearly forbidden.

[Deu 12:32 KJV] 32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Look up the history of xmas. You will find it was banned for a long time. It used to be a week long drunken orgy. It got a makeover with "A Christmas Carol". Messiah was clearly born in the fall not on the winter soltice.

Torah1st2019 · Jun 4, 2019

Shimshon said:
The Torah is not the light, the Torah leads to the light. The Torah is not life, the Torah leads to life. The Torah is not Yeshua, the Torah leads and points to Yeshua.

Whom will I believe?

Pro 6:23 For the commandment [is] a lamp; and the law [is] light; and reproofs of instruction [are] the way of life:

Psa 119: Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. ... 130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

Torah1st2019 · Jun 4, 2019

Shimshon said:
What you seem convinced of is that the Torah leads to Yeshua who then leads you back to the Torah. Can you not see how you have been fooled down a dead end road? The enemy has used the very law itself to turn you back around and go backwards, so denying you the path to righteousness which is a life in union with Yeshua. He seems to have convinced you to use the Torah as a mirror and place it as the center of God's world and command. By doing this he has prevented you from moving to the actual presence of God. The Torah is supposed to lead you to Yeshua, and Yeshua is supposed to lead you to God, the presence of God and eternal life.

What is so confusing?

In the beginning was the Word(Logos, Torah, Instruction, Commandment), and the Word was with Eloah, and the Word was Elohim.... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,... John 1:1,14

AHYH possessed me (Torah, Logos, Word, Instruction) in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was....Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways....For who so findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of AHYH. But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Proverbs 8:22-23,32,35-36

The Word/Torah became Flesh. How could He cross His own nature?

Shimshon · Jun 4, 2019

Torah1st2019 said:
Do you find it hard to respond to what I am presenting? That is because I am telling you the truth.

Again, seriously? After 10 pages of responses between basically you and I? It appears you have a hard time understanding or even paying attention to what I've been saying. Let this be clear, I don't believe you. I'll explain a little more below.

Torah1st2019 said:
As I read the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation (intently), things did not line up with what my pastor was telling me. I saw Matt 7:21-23 and it scares the **** out of me. I read, I prayed, I analyzed.

Always take your questions to God. Speak to him first and foremost. Develop an intimate relationship that will last an eternity with him.

However, you are not given a spirit of fear, but of power, and self-control. 1 Timothy 1:7 Through the power of the Holy Spirit who lives in us we carefully guard the precious truth that has been entrusted to us. 1 Timothy 1:14

Keep searching, you will find. What you think you have found is not where you should stop.

Torah1st2019 said:
Your pastor is not going to pursue anything. What I am saying, he/she will discount it. You have been hearing the same stuff every week for years, why not research own your own?

All I am saying is investigate before you invest your eternity on what you have been “told”.

I have never had a pastor. I was born and raised a Jew. I ran from God for 18 years till I returned to him, and realized he was with me all the time. He pointed me up stream to the source of the water, where I found Yeshua. In the early 90's when a Jew did this they would 'assimilate' into Hebrew Christianity. I only considered myself a Jewish believer. And still did not get the call to 'join the church' in my spirit. I have never been a Christian, but I do not forsake them either. Nor their traditions. I may not care to entertain them myself but I do not judge others for doing them. Love triumphs over sacrifice every time. I don't have a favorite pastor, I do have a favorite rabbi, or two. All of whom have the same love for Yeshua and the restoration of Israel. But I do not go to men for decisions, council maybe, but never for the final say. The Lord formed me in the wilderness and I have learned from only him all my days.

Torah1st2019 said:
You can see for yourself the Messiah clearly states but “if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17 in black and white

How are you 'keeping the commandments'? I've been showing you, with scripture how Messiah said it was to be. And if you don't see scriptural quotes, look it up yourself. What I say is what He has testified to. Every word.

Learn what it means to be emptied of yourself, and filled with His Spirit. Then you will have found the key to keeping his commandments. All else is vanity.

Torah1st2019 · Jun 4, 2019

Shimshon said:
To a Jew you just said that our Messiah has replaced Judaism at the Cross. Such a Christian thing to say don't you think?

In my mind there is only one group, Israel. Everyone is grafted in or out.

I did not say anything. I repeated what is clearly in the Scriptures.

The Levitical Priesthood was replaced by the Blood of HaMashiach.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Is 1John 1:9 not a better covenant?

Shimshon · Jun 4, 2019

Torah1st2019 said:
Whom will I believe?

When will you see it's reality? Do you really believe the light brings you back into the shadows? How can a pattern of something to come actually BE that something? When my father dies and puts all his inheritance in me, does he cease to exist? Or does he live on in me and through my 'name'?

Word in hebrew is davar, it means to speak. Torah means instruction or law. The word made flesh does NOT mean Yeshua was a living Torah scroll only proclaiming the words given Moses. Yes, the imagery is awesome, in synagogue worship as a Messianic Jew it's heavenly. But it's a pattern, a proto-type, not the real thing. Yeshua is ALIVE and live within us, in real-time. He is the light for our path. And the one who leads us down it. There is no law against this, it is the promise of Abraham. For all who believe.

Torah1st2019 · Jun 4, 2019

Shimshon said:
Again, seriously? After 10 pages of responses between basically you and I? It appears you have a hard time understanding or even paying attention to what I've been saying. Let this be clear, I don't believe you. I'll explain a little more below.

Always take your questions to God. Speak to him first and foremost. Develop an intimate relationship that will last an eternity with him.

Is God speaking to you audibly? How do you know its God? Does He tell you what to do? Did He tell you what to write in these posts? Are you confusing your conscious mind with God? Is it a still small voice or normal volume? Does He have an accent? Does He use the KJV when quoting? You have a relationship I am sure you can share all the details that prove the Creator of the universe is whispering in your ear so that you never make a mistake, right? Your buddy gives you all the answers because you believe real hard. 2 Cor 11:13

Maybe I should consult a psychic, no way they would mislead me. Why read and study, when I can just receive divine info.

Obviously I am being sarcastic. Maybe you have a relationship that I am envious of. So until I get the lottery numbers a day ahead of time I am going to keep praying that I hear as clear as you.

Torah1st2019 · Jun 4, 2019

Shimshon said:
There is no law against this, it is the promise of Abraham. For all who believe.

Abraham received the blessing because he obeyed. Gen 26:5

When he almost killed his son it was obedience/faith that the Creator knew better than he did. It was not new age spiritual "double talk". How can the Father have a Kingdom if you do not obey? That is what happened in heaven, they rebelled. This time there will be obedience, Period. In or out.

Shimshon · Jun 4, 2019

Torah1st2019 said:
Abraham received the blessing because he obeyed. Gen 26:5

When he almost killed his son it was obedience/faith that the Creator knew better than he did. It was not new age spiritual "double talk". How can the Father have a Kingdom if you do not obey? That is what happened in heaven, they rebelled. This time there will be obedience, Period. In or out.

Abraham did not receive his physical inheritance. He lived the remainder of his days as a foreigner sojourning in a foreign land. It's where the word Hebrew comes from.

Abraham knew that God would provide a lamb interestingly enough it was a ram, no? The point is that Abraham knew through faith that God would provide. Yes he obeyed the commands given to him Because of the faith that he had in his heart. But he received nothing in regards to what is spiritual, eternal life he like all of us receives it through faith. He knows that he will receive it. Just as he knew that God but provide a lamb.

God promised the descendants of Abraham the land, a land that Abraham never saw in its fullness. Abraham believed that God would do what he said he would do. God spoke to Abraham in person. I guess Abraham needed a psychiatrist.

In fact Abraham not only heard and spoke to God he also fed him. Abraham also cut up animals in half set him on sides and walk through them. The point is we do what God commands us to do. Today he has commanded you to put your faith in the Son of God so that your sins may be washed clean and that you may live a new life in and for him.

Now I'll be honest with you, I realize how Christian that sounds.I would love nothing more than to revel in the Jewishness of my ancestors and promote the love of Torah and observance thereof to all the world. In the Torah is goodness in the Torah is life eternal yes. But only because it will lead Yeshua who will place all of his laws and words and everything the full extent of his Spirit, within your heart. That is how the law is being written upon your heart, through the spirit, through his daily relationship with you. If you are not surrendering all thoughts to the mind of messiah then you need help. And that is a humble statement.

1 Corinthians 5:8
Therefore let us celebrate the feast not with old hametz, the hametz of malice and wickedness, but with unleavened bread—the matzah of sincerity and truth.

Why the adjustment? Why not just confirm the law instead of qualify it?

Romans 14:17
for the kingdom of God is not about eating and drinking, but righteousness and shalom and joy in the Ruach ha-Kodesh. 18 For the one who serves Messiah in this manner is pleasing to God and approved by men.

BNR32FAN · Jun 5, 2019

Torah1st2019 said:
Although widely accepted, they are clearly forbidden.

[Deu 12:32 KJV] 32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Look up the history of xmas. You will find it was banned for a long time. It used to be a week long drunken orgy. It got a makeover with "A Christmas Carol". Messiah was clearly born in the fall not on the winter soltice.

How are the feasts forbidden by the verse you quoted? If anything the Passover was commanded by God to be observed by the Jews for all time.

“'Now this day will be a memorial to you, and you shall celebrate it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations you are to celebrate it as a permanent ordinance.”
‭‭EXODUS‬ ‭12:14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Shimshon · Jun 5, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
How are the feasts forbidden by the verse you quoted? If anything the Passover was commanded by God to be observed by the Jews for all time.

He isn't referring to the feast but Christian traditions not commanded by God.

So, considering what you said about the exodus, which is directly linked to the passover, how do you understand this prophecy through Jeremiah?

Jeremiah 16:13-15 Tree of Life Version (TLV)
13 So I will cast you out of this land into a land that you have not known—neither you nor your fathers—and there you will serve other gods day and night. For I will give you no grace.’

Returning From All Lands
14 “Therefore, the days are quickly coming,” declares Adonai, “when it will no longer be said. ‘As Adonai lives, who brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt.’ 15 Rather, ‘As Adonai lives, who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north and from all the lands where He had banished them.’ So I will bring them back into their land that I gave to their fathers.

Or this one.

Jeremiah 3:16
It will be in those days when you multiply and become fruitful in the land.” It is a declaration of Adonai. “They will no longer talk about the ark of the covenant of Adonai, nor will it come to mind or be remembered. Neither will it be missed or another one made again.

In just two verses, both of which are qualified as declarations from the Lord himself, the prophet Jeremiah swiftly does away with everything that deals with the heart of the Torah given Moses.

And, do you notice when these things are to come about? In the end of days when God returns to the house of Jacob and restores them. They will be revived and renewed yet never once think of the ark of the covenant, nor ever make one again. And the regathering of Israel back to the Land from out of the whole world will completely overshadow the original exodus. Because that was a foreshadowing of the Great exodus to come. Curses and all...or have you not understood the revelation given John about the coming of the Messiah, the Holy one of Israel? That book was given before the church you understand existed. It was a military polemic writing directed at the Roman persecution of Israel.

The latter church fathers ironically used Hillel's rules and overlayed themselves into the prophecy. Once all forms of Judaism were outlawed that is.

Shimshon · Jun 5, 2019

Torah1st2019 said:
Is God speaking to you audibly? How do you know its God? Does He tell you what to do? Did He tell you what to write in these posts? Are you confusing your conscious mind with God? Is it a still small voice or normal volume? Does He have an accent? Does He use the KJV when quoting? You have a relationship I am sure you can share all the details that prove the Creator of the universe is whispering in your ear so that you never make a mistake, right? Your buddy gives you all the answers because you believe real hard. 2 Cor 11:13

Maybe I should consult a psychic, no way they would mislead me. Why read and study, when I can just receive divine info.

Obviously I am being sarcastic. Maybe you have a relationship that I am envious of. So until I get the lottery numbers a day ahead of time I am going to keep praying that I hear as clear as you.

Thanks for the chuckle, seriously.

Every person has to come to terms with the need to have a personal relationship with the creator and king of the universe. All too many Christians believe the only relationship they can garner is through a book they call the Bible. And conversely, many Jews think they can attain this relationship through the Torah. Either by study or works there in. Way too many religious people place the substance of their relationship on immaterial things. And so the enemy uses this to create idols even of your most treasured traditions, through buildings and books. All applied just like wooden idols.

Have you not notice how every individual in the scriptures that we are to listen to or follow has had a direct communication with the holy one of Israel? Name one person in the blessed line of Yeshua who did not speak or hear from God in person? Who was ever lead to God only through another person? All the prophets said that God himself would lead the way, would give the command, would speak that which was prepared from the foundation of the world. A prophet points to the One. He does not say I will take you, or this will take you, he says He will...

I struggled with the intimate voice of God for many years. The enemy was drowning out his voice with distractions, because I was not whole hearted. If he can't keep you from getting to Yeshua he will distract you endlessly even as you progress. This is why the importance of emptying out yourself of all your desires and motives. And keeping a constant focus on the one who is with you. We are like children in an amusement park. And Yeshua is trying to lead us through to the greatest ride in all the universe. While the enemy sets up shop all along the way and mimics the place you are being led. Like vaudville schisters they will woo and harass you to pay attention to them. All the while Yeshua is trying to hold your hand.

His presence is real. Have you never called out to him and he came? You seem to believe you're saved, so you must have had some experience that made you place your trust in him, with your life?

Seek and you will find, call and he will answer. Who has fooled you that God remains silent throughout your days? IF he is writing his ways upon your heart through the power of the Holy Spirit then how is it you can not 'hear' him in your inner being? I'm sure you know the voice of yourself, you've been hearing it since you were speaking. I sure know when it's me and my mind. It's selfish, and not focusing on the needs of Yeshua and others. But there is this voice, like yours but not yours. Meaning it's not another personality of you because it speaks things that are not coming from your mind. Like motivating you to do something for someone when it was the last thing you were thinking of. Have you ever placed a fleece out for God like Gideon did? How many times have you talked to him? You do talk to him right? Who are you talking to? Do you not think he will answer you in some way? And after so many decades of forming this relationship with him don't you think you would start to recognize his voice? It's more than just an audible recognition too. It's a spirit that motivates you in things that you would never consider yourself.

So again I ask, do you not talk to him? If so, don't you think he would like to answer? And if hearing from God personally is a mental condition, then the entire of scripture is a contrived fantasy. As it's completely based upon a direct communication with God. The whole reason for the Torah itself was to bring Israel into complete communion with God. When you take the bread and drink the wine we eat of his flesh and drink of his blood. We become one.

How do you think this works?

Matthew 3:11 NIV
11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Matthew 12:32 NIV
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mark 12:36 NIV
36 David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord:“Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.” ’

The Holy Spirit spoke through David as he prophesied about Yeshua. Proving that though the Spirit was given to all who believe at Shavuot (pentecost), it was obviously given to some who believe beforehand. Namely the prophets.

Joel 2:28 NIV
28 “And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.

Mark 13:11 NIV
11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

Do you need more biblical proof of how the great commission operates?

Luke 1:35 NIV
35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

1 John 3:2 NIV
2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Luke 2:25 NIV
25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him.

Before Shavuot!

26 It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Messiah.

Revealed by the Holy Spirit. Not through a book or one mans testimony, but by God's Spirit himself.

John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no benefit. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and are life!

John 16:13
But when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on His own; but whatever He hears, He will tell you. And He will declare to you the things that are to come.

See, I don't have to just live by these scriptures. I don't simply 'believe' this can happen. I believe it will happen to all who are his. I once heard of him, and I thought I knew him through the bible, through who others said he was. But when his Spirit came and made a home in my heart I found out who he was/is/and will be personally. From within.

How else do you think the Torah of the Spirit is applied to your life?

I have decades of personal testimonies, visitations, and miraculous occasions of life preserved when I should have died. It took me years to establish a relationship, where as my wife was almost born with it. I have found the key is to seek with all your heart. It's that simple but never easy.

Torah1st2019 · Jun 5, 2019

Shimshon said:
.

Maybe we can establish some common ground. I will show you what I see and you let me know when you disagree.

Malachi 3:6 For I am AHYH, I change not.

Things that the Fathers does are repeated

Genesis 15:6 ABRAHAM

And he believed in AHYH; and he counted it to him for righteousness. UNMERITED GRACE

Genesis 26:3, 5 ABRAHAM

…and I will be with thee, and will bless thee…Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. OBEDIENCE THEN BLESSING

Exodus 12:13 ISRAEL

And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you. UNMERITED GRACE

Deuteronomy 11:26-27 ISRAEL

Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; 27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of AHYH your Eloah, which I command you this day: OBEDIENCE THEN BLESSING

Matthew 26:28 GENTILE ISRAEL

For this is my blood of the new (renewed) testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins (not eternal life). UNMERITED GRACE

Revelation 22:14 GENTILE ISRAEL

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (this is eternal life) OBEDIENCE THEN BLESSING

Ezekiel 37:23 FUTURE ISRAEL

Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their Eloah. UNMERITED GRACE

Ezekiel 37:24 FUTURE ISRAEL

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. OBEDIENCE THEN BLESSING

"they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them" Are these spiritual judgments and statutes?

Torah1st2019 · Jun 5, 2019

Shimshon said:
Thanks for the chuckle, seriously. Every person has to come to terms with the need to have a personal relationship with the creator and king of the universe. All too many Christians believe the only relationship they can garner is through a book they call the Bible. And conversely, many Jews think they can attain this relationship through the Torah. Either by study or works there in. Way too many religious people place the substance of their relationship on immaterial things. And so the enemy uses this to create idols even of your most treasured traditions, through buildings and books. All applied just like wooden idols.

Every morning I get up and read approx 10 verses from Genesis to Revelation over and over again. I also do the Psalms that way. This was this mornings Psalm portion.

[Psa 78:1-8 KJV] 1 Give ear, O my people, [to] my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. 2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old: 3 Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us. 4 We will not hide [them] from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the AHYH, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done. 5 For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children: 6 That the generation to come might know [them, even] the children [which] should be born; [who] should arise and declare [them] to their children: 7 That they might set their hope in Eloah, and not forget the works of Eloah, but keep his commandments: 8 And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation [that] set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with Eloah.

I believe He speaks through His Word to us.

Shimshon · Jun 5, 2019

Torah1st2019 said:
Malachi 3:6 For I am AHYH, I change not.

I do not agree with taking a part of a sentence out of context to imply that the law will forever be ministered as it was given Moses.

Do you not believe this? That Yeshua's ministry is to further 'enable' the ministry given Moses? The law given Moses and the words Yeshua speak are not the same. You recognize a change in the priesthood but you seemingly refuse to accept or acknowledge the transformation of the law by changing the priesthood.

The actual context of this sentence is in regards to Israel. God does not change, he will NEVER forsake Israel. Even though Christians for over a thousand years have been teaching that God has. His promise of blessing for Israel will NEVER change. Israel will remain the focal point of God's interaction with this world. No matter who says otherwise. He will not change in this matter.

Malachi 3
6 "But because I, ADONAI, do not change, you sons of Ya'akov will not be destroyed.
7 Since the days of your forefathers you have turned from my laws and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot.

The heart of God for Israel will never change.
But even the Torah itself testifies to an evolution in God's plan. 'what is to come' is not what has already come. The enemy is using a fragment of a sentence that keeps you from fully accepting the actual blessings you speak of.

Torah1st2019 said:
Genesis 15:6 ABRAHAM

And he believed in AHYH; and he counted it to him for righteousness. UNMERITED GRACE

Genesis 26:3, 5 ABRAHAM

…and I will be with thee, and will bless thee…Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. OBEDIENCE THEN BLESSING

Obedience to a Torah that was not given for 430 yrs later? The assumption is that these commandments and laws are that which was given later? The reality is they were the instructions God gave through the Angel of the Lord (Yeshua) to him personally. Don't conflate Abraham's obedience with the obedience required through Moses. Sure some of the basics are there but the actual covenant was not made with Israel for 430 yrs. Abraham was under his own covenant with God. Not the same one as Moses. Not the exact same commands. So, if God does not change then Moses was given something completely different than Abraham, what now? (ark/preisthood/land)

The Torah does not cancel out the Promise given Abraham, but the Promise is surely also not based on the Torah.

Galatians 3:16-18 Tree of Life Version (TLV)
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. It doesn’t say, “and to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “and to your seed,” who is the Messiah. 17 What I am saying is this: Torah, which came 430 years later, does not cancel the covenant previously confirmed by God, so as to make the promise ineffective. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise. But God has graciously given it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Blessings=inheritance. Our inheritance is not based on law, but on a voice of promise. Which was believed through faith. And then accepted as righteousness. This is the promise.

Otherwise, yes Abraham followed the audible voice of God in all that he commanded him throughout his life. Which was surely not the exact Torah given Moses 430 yrs later.

I disagree that these commands and laws and ordinances were based and patterned on the law given Moses. They are two completely different things. You seem to conflate these. If not, then of course Abraham followed the commands of God. What does that have to do with the law given Moses?

Torah1st2019 said:
Exodus 12:13 ISRAEL

And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you. UNMERITED GRACE

Deuteronomy 11:26-27 ISRAEL

Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; 27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of AHYH your Eloah, which I command you this day: OBEDIENCE THEN BLESSIN

I think you forget that if any person did not OBEY the instructions of the passover they were cut off and killed immediately. Not so unmerited really.

As for Deut, yes if you don't obey the law you are guilty. Thank God we have a savior! Who does bestow the gift of unmerited grace upon all who believe THEN enter a relationship with him through the Spirit. The cure for the curse!

An obedience that comes through faith and faith alone.

Is it this? That you believe grace only comes after you obey the law?

Torah1st2019 said:
Matthew 26:28 GENTILE ISRAEL

For this is my blood of the new (renewed) testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins (not eternal life). UNMERITED GRACE

Revelation 22:14 GENTILE ISRAEL

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (this is eternal life) OBEDIENCE THEN BLESSING

Death is the final outcome of sin, sin leads to death. Directly related. Yeshua removes our sin, and has attained victory over death. His promise is to remove our sins and restore our bodies like Him after we die. Like Him we will be raised to newness of life eternal. And we who are in him now are first fruits of this. The Spirit boldly lives in our bodies even in this sinful world.

Now, you are starting to use Hebrew roots terminology. Gentile Israel? Renewed covenant/testament? I disagee that the remission of sins is not related to eternal life. A division you seemingly make. And I fully disagree that obedience to the law of Moses IS eternal life. The blessing does NOT come through obedience but by grace through faith, not of ourselves by by the power of the Spirit.

Torah1st2019 said:
Ezekiel 37:23 FUTURE ISRAEL

Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their Eloah. UNMERITED GRACE

Ezekiel 37:24 FUTURE ISRAEL

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. OBEDIENCE THEN BLESSING

"they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them" Are these spiritual judgments and statutes?

When Yeshua ministered to Israel he pointed them to the law, because that was the law's purpose. To lead and point to Yeshua. When Yeshua testifies about hiimself, which is actually the testimony of the Father, he does not lead and point to the Torah, he testifies about Him and His work, His words. Meaning, Yeshua did not become a 'more sure word of Torah' he became a more sure word altogether. He proved that he was the one who the Torah was talking about, who would come and redeem our people and the world.

John 15:2-4 Tree of Life Version (TLV)
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He trims so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I will abide in you. The branch cannot itself produce fruit, unless it abides on the vine. Likewise, you cannot produce fruit unless you abide in Me.

Cleaned by the power of the Word, the Spirit of the Living God.

Shimshon · Jun 5, 2019

Torah1st2019 said:
Maybe we can establish some common ground.

I believe our dichotomy is that you believe the Torah given Moses is THE center of the universe according to God's commands. AND that Yeshua ONLY promoted and (re)established this law.

I do not believe the Torah of Yeshua is the same as the Torah of Moses. (John 6:43-58)

John 6
29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” 30So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? 31Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”

35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Messiah Yeshua testified and witnessed that the work of God is to believe in his words, in the Messiah's Torah. So they rightly ask, what about Moses?? Does what Yeshua do and say equal what Moses said and did? Yeshua said his Torah was 'the true' Torah to be eaten and drank.

Messiah Yeshua testified and witnessed that the will of the father is for everyone to look on the Son and believe in him. All who do will be forgiven and redeemed, forever.

Messiah Yeshua testified and witnessed that he himself came down from heaven to do the will of God. Which was and is to look upon and believe in Messiah Yeshua for the forgiveness of our sins and the redemption of our souls.

43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves.44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.45It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—46not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.47Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

48 I am the bread of life.49Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.50This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.54Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.56Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.57As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

Messiah Yeshua testified and witnessed that God is teaching everyone to come to Yeshua for eternal life. The bread we eat is not like the bread our fathers ate. What came down from heaven for them sustained them for a time, but still allowed them to die. What comes down from heaven for us now, if eaten will sustain us forever. Many seem to want to suppose that Yeshua was leading all back to the fathers bread, as if he is testifying and witnessing the Torah of Moses. But it's the other way around, Yeshua is testified and witnessed by the Torah given Moses. Messiah does not compare his food (Torah) with Moses' as 'the true' food if the bread the fathers ate was to be fed to us for life.

My words.....the true food.....not like the food Moses fed.....

Shimshon · Jun 5, 2019

Torah1st2019 said:
I believe He speaks through His Word to us.

I agree whole-heartedly. So, what has God commanded you today? Don't you realize that by keeping you focused on a law you can not obey in actuality may be keeping you from actually doing the commandments God is speaking to your heart through the Spirit? No these commands do not negate or go against the law given Moses. They contain the Spirit of those laws, but if God told you to give something to someone, or do something for someone that would require you to loose something you find dear. Would you? Or would you start to distinguish between Torah and non-Torah, Israel and non-Israel and blah blah blah...

If you ran into a needy person on the street would you only seek to display your observance to the Torah given Moses or would you be moved by the Spirit within you to do what is required in that moment?

A non-Jew is not going to be interested in your take on Torah, and a Jew is going to run from you. So what will you do when your Torah observance is of no consequence to others? Observe it even harder in hopes that this will provoke a jealous response?

I know this, offering someone something that you have that they need even though it removes what you have all together is the actual living out of the Torah. "On these two all the law is hung"... LOVE God, LOVE others. And we have a perfect example of what love is through Yeshua's life, death and resurrection and subsequent gifting of all who believe with not only the Spirit of God but eternal life. Yeshua shows us the full extent of what love is. And how to love others. And he didn't have to lead the disciples into the temple to do so, just like he didn't lead the gentiles into the temple to do so. Because our relationship is not based on the Torah, but on Yeshua and the Spirit. Which is not against the law but fulfilling the law completely.

Shimshon · Jun 5, 2019

Torah1st2019 said:
Abraham received the blessing because he obeyed. Gen 26:5

When he almost killed his son it was obedience/faith that the Creator knew better than he did. It was not new age spiritual "double talk". How can the Father have a Kingdom if you do not obey? That is what happened in heaven, they rebelled. This time there will be obedience, Period. In or out.

You are correct. But what is it that you believe you are to obey? You keep pointing to the Torah/Law given through Moses. And I keep pointing to the testimony given through Yeshua. And if you tell me the testimony given through Yeshua was pointing to the testimony given Moses we will both have to realize we have a bridge that can not be connected.

When Yeshua restores heaven and earth it will not be like the covenant made in Moses day. I've given you much scriptural proof text. You will have to study it more. And please seek the Spirit above all things. You keep pointing to how important obeying God's commands are. Well you should focus more on that one my friend. It will help with any other issues greatly.

The Kingdom of God is at hand. The threshing floor is the earth, and we are the stalks holding both grain and chaff. The Spirit is the wind that blows on our souls as God SMASHES us to the floor! Those who blame God for this smashing turn and hate him for this. While those who allow God to discipline them sprout like grains and water. Those who blame are those who don't understand the testimony that was spoken. They have rejected it. Those who 'obey' understand the testimony of the King who has commanded us to lay down our lives as He did for the good of the people.

We all have a hope of a future as trees along side the river of life. Which flows out of Yerushalayim in Tziyon. But we must be harvested, and the land must be tilled, and the seeds must be planted in order to grow into a forest of fruit. All this starts at the threshing floor with a fresh bundle of pure wheat. Oh the irony. Oh the majesty of God's grand plan.

Torah1st2019 · Jun 5, 2019

Shimshon said:
I do not agree with taking a part of a sentence out of context to imply that the law will forever be ministered as it was given Moses.

How is anything out of context? The Creator is giving you one of His character traits. HE does not Change. Because it does not fit your narrative, in your mind it is out of context. But your theology is in direct opposition to one of His character traits. HE does not change.

2+2 =4 does not imply that 2+2=4 forever??? That is what you are saying.

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie [unless it does not fit the narrative], promised before the world began;

But He is lying here:
Malachi 3:6 For I am AHYH, I change not.

But He is lying here:
Matt 19:16 "...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

But He is lying here:
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I know you have a better relationship than I do, so which Scriptures should I believe?

Paul was still keeping the Feast Days years after Jesus death, but weren't they abolished?

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