3 People Groups Going into the Lake of Fire

setst777 · May 14, 2019

aiki said:
No, I'm saying you have misunderstood Scripture,
.

Hi Aiki,

You had brought up the bad conduct of the Corinthians twice as an example of those Christians living in a carnal or worldly way, yet still saved, thus attempting to show that obedience is not essential for salvation because the word "must" is not used.

Firstly, Paul in no way condoned their activity, but rather condemned it and warned them that they must repent of such activity, for those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God 1 Corinthians 3:18-21; 1 Corinthians 6:7-11.

Secondly, by admission from you concerning the Corinthians, you agree that a Christian, the Spirit living in them, can still live for the carnal nature, therefore:

they are still sowing to the flesh, which if not repented of, will lead to corruption or destruction: Gal 6:7-8.
they are still walking according to the flesh which, if unchecked, will lead to death: Rom 8:12-13

There are many other such warnings in Scripture to show this truth. For instance:

Lord Jesus places the responsibility on Christians to repent from their fallen condition or be lost...

Revelation 2:4-7 (WEB) 4 But I have this against you, that you left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I am coming to you swiftly, and will move your lamp stand out of its place, unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of my God.

Revelation 3:2-5 … 2 Wake up, and keep the things that remain, which are about to die, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it, and repent.
If therefore you do not wake up, I will come as a thief, and you won't know what hour I will come to you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

The point is that Galatians 6:7-8 and Romans 8:12 are written to Christians to warn backsliding Christians (like the Corinthians) to not walk in or reap to the flesh or they would reap destruction. Instead, Christians are obligated to live by the Spirit they received by faith to inherit eternal life. In fact, Lord Jesus places the responsibility to remain faithful and to repent - not on the Spirit, but squarely on their shoulders to get their acts together to be saved.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Another disagreement we are having is that because Scripture does not use the word "must" when commanding us to obey Christ, you conclude that obedience from us is not required or essential for salvation, but is instead a work.

For instance:

setst wrote:
<<
Your faith must lead to obedience...

Romans 1:5 (NIV)
5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.
>>

Aiki writes: See? Paul doesn't use the word "must" in this verse.

setst RE: Is the word "must" used when we are commanded to believe in Jesus to be saved? No

Does that mean believing in Jesus is not a must to be saved, just optional? John 3:16-18

setst quoted:
<<
Romans 6:16 (NIV)
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey — whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
>>

Aiki RE: No "must" in this verse, either.

This is a statement of fact. If you are a slave to sin you will die. If you are obedient, this leads to righteousness.

setst quoted:
<<
Romans 16:25-27 (NIV)
... 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith— 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
>>

Aiki writes: See? Paul doesn't use the word "must" in this verse.

setst RE: Not all Gentiles will come to obedience that comes from faith, but that is what God commanded. So the command is not optional, even though not all Gentiles will obey the command.

setst RE: However, Aiki, you neglected to quote and respond in like manner to the other verses in that list as follows:

Hebrews 5:8-10 (NIV)
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

John 14:21 (NIV)
21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

John 14:23 (NIV)
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

1 John 2:4 (NIV)
4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person... 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

Romans 6
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Here is a Passage with the word "must"

2 Timothy 2:19 (NIV)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”
>>

Aiki, your response is as follows:
<<
No, your faith ought to lead to obedience, it will lead to obedience when it is governed by God's truth and submitted to, and led by, the Spirit. Saying, though, that one's faith must lead to obedience makes obedience necessary to the Christian life when it is only inevitable.
>>

setst RE: Ought to? Faith and Obedience are inseparable. What if your faith does not lead to obedience? You will not be saved.

Anyway I disagree that 'obedience to the Christian life is only inevitable.'

Obedience is not inevitable, because believers can fall into sin, and sometimes they fall away and are lost or cut off...

You mentioned how the Corinthians were living worldly. Was their obedience inevitable?

1 Corinthians 6:7-11 (NIV)
7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Nothing inevitable in Jesus' warnings to the Churches in Revelation

So many other Scripture warnings about the possibility of falling away, or being cut off for unfaithfulness including Romans 11:19-27

For instance, I don't see anything inevitable in the following Passage:

Hebrews 3:12-13 (NIV)
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.

So, I don't see here how obedience is inevitable. I also see that, if they, personally did not obey Jesus and repent, they would be lost. And Christians (not gentile nations as you stated) can certainly be cut off and be lost if they to not remain faithful: Romans 11:19-27

You, Aiki, continue as follows:
<<
This is akin to saying that an apple tree must bear apples. This is obviously false. There are apple trees that, because of immaturity, or disease, or malnourishment, or lack of water do not bear apples.
>>

setst RE: Your analogy does not work. Christ Jesus only used such analogies to show that bearing fruit, or good fruit, is essential. And if not bearing such fruit, such trees or branches will be cut down, or cut off and put into the fire: Mtt 3:10, Jn 15:1-5; Lk 13:6-9

Matthew 10:38 (NIV)
38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

The obvious implication is that, by faith (the Spirit empowering your faith) you cannot be saved without leading a holy life.

Aiki quotes me (setst) as follows:
<<
Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
>>

Aiki RE:
But this verse says exactly the opposite of what you have! It is by the Spirit that a person lives as a born-again believer and it is by the Spirit that they may also walk as such.
>>

setst RE: The Passage states "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit"

The subject is the person who has the Spirit. The "those" "we" and the "us" are believers who are obligated to live by the Spirit and to walk by the Spirit they received by faith.

Notice several verses earlier Paul is putting the responsibility on the Galatians to walk in the Spirit, because he warned them that what they were doing now, 'biting and devouring each other' would destroy them.

Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

So Paul was warning them to not bite and devour each other anymore, but instead to walk in the Spirit so they will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Also, that was a warning to the Galatians, in that, if they don't walk in the Spirit they will not inherit the Kingdom of God:

Galatians 5:21 I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Live like how? They way the Galatians were now living.

Continued...

setst777 · May 14, 2019

aiki said:
No, you have this precisely backwards. The faith, obedience and eternal life of a believer is the fruit of a renewed life accomplished by God. See above.

Aiki continues:
<<
It is not, then, up to the believer to live and walk spiritually but the Spirit, who gives the believer spiritual life and enables the believer to live rightly. (Ephesians 2:1; Romans 8:9-11; Titus 3:5; Philippians 2:13) Yikes! You have badly misunderstood how to walk with God!
>>

setst RE: The Passages you quoted do not in any way prove your point. Let's take a look at those Passages...

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins

setst RE: What does this prove? This is segment of a sentence that provides no details. I am not sure why you quoted it.

Romans 8:9-11 shows that we have the Spirit living in us, however, in the very next couple verses (Rom 8:12-13), Paul puts a condition on this statement, that even though we have the Spirit, we are obligated to live by that Spirit to receive life. The obligation is not on the Spirit, but on the one who has the Spirit.

You want to keep putting the obligation on the Spirit to do it for you. Paul says, no... YOU are obligated to live by the Spirit you received to live.

<<
Titus 3:5 (NIV)
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit
>>

setst RE: This Passage does not state the details of how this all occurs. You have to read the Biblical instruction given regarding such issues.

For instance:

We received the Holy Spirit of rebirth and renewel by a repentant and obedient faith (Acts 2:32, Act 2:38, Jn 14:15-17).

For this renewal to take place we are, by that same faith, obligated to live and walk by that Spirit to be saved.

For instance:

After you receive the Spirit by an obedient repentant faith, then - by that same faith empowered by the Spirit living in you - you are obligated to:

to put to death the misdeeds of the body to live: Rom 8:12-13
offer ourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness: Rom 8:19
to live by and walk by the Spirit we receive so we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh: Gal 5:16
to sow to the Spirit to reap eternal life: Gal 6:8
to live by the Spirit to fulfill the requirements of the whole law: Rom 8:3-4
to take off the old self and to put on new self: Eph 4:24-25; Col 3:9-10
to abstain from reaping to the flesh so we may enter the Kingdom of God: 1 Cor 6:7-10; Eph 5:1-6
to live as slaves to God by which we reap holiness leading to eternal life: Rom 6:22 . . .

Romans 6:15-22 (NIV)
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.
21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of?
Those things result in death!
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

setst RE: Notice they are set free from sin by choosing obedience to righteousness - this is the pattern of teaching that has claimed our allegiance.

Notice the summary comparison made in Romans 6:20-22. . .

sowing to shameful deeds result in death
while being slaves to God reaps holiness resulting in eternal life.

You are obligated live by that Spirit in you as a slave of God unto holiness to receive eternal life.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Aiki quotes me (setst) as follows:
<<
Up to you to sow to the Spirit you received by faith to reap life

Galatians 6:8 (WEB) 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
>>

Aiki RE: And how is a person who was once "dead in trespasses and sins" able to "sow to the Spirit"?

setst RE: All of Romans 8 was written to Believers who have the Spirit. Paul is teaching those already saved that they must sow to the Spirit they received by faith. It's the same thing as saying:

to live by and walk by the Spirit we receive so we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh: Gal 5:16
to live by the Spirit to fulfill the requirements of the whole law: Rom 8:3-4
to take off the old self and to put on new self: Eph 4:24-25; Col 3:9-10
to abstain from reaping to the flesh so we may enter the Kingdom of God: 1 Cor 6:7-10; Eph 5:1-6
to live as slaves to God by which we reap holiness leading to eternal life: Rom 6:22

These are all written to Christians who have the Spirit living in them. The Bible is the Christians' Book of instruction.

Aiki quotes me (setst) as follows:
<<
You must live according to the Spirit you received by faith

Romans 8:3-4 (NIV)
3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
>>

Aiki RE:
<<
Again, Paul never uses the word "must" in this passage. A believer ought to live according to the Spirit and he will when he is walking rightly with God, but Paul does not say here that he must do so. No, the word Paul uses is "might," that is, possibly, not certainly. Here, again, you have let your SAL, works-salvation doctrinal lens contort what Scripture actually says.
>>

setst RE: The word "must" doesn't have to be used because it's statement of act, just as "must" doesn't have to be used when saying those who believe receive eternal life, John 3:16-18 because that is the way it is done.

This is primary grade 3 communication.

As far as the word "may" or "might," Passages use those words in regards to our salvation too. For instance:

Romans 8:29 (NIV)
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

What does that mean? That it is not for sure that Jesus might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters? That might be the case, because not everyone who believes will remain faithful to the end. Many will fall away or be cut off.

The same here in our present Passage: Not everyone will remain faithful to living according to the Spirit. Many will fall away. But those that do continue to live according to the Spirit, the law will be fully met in them - they will be righteous and holy before God, which results in salvation.

setst wrote:
<<
If you believe in Jesus then, Christ commands of You to deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Him to be saved...
>>

Aiki RE: Amen! But this the result of God's work in us by His Spirit; it is not the product of our Self-effort. No man can crucify himself physically. It's just impossible. And no man can crucify himself spiritually. Doing so is also impossible, which is why God has crucified us with Christ.

setst RE:
The Spirit is our helper for those who believe. The Spirit will not believe for you. Faith is your responsibility not only to receive the Spirit, but also to receive the help of the indwelling Spirit.

As a note: Keep in mind that Jesus' disciples, except for Judas, gave up everything and followed Jesus before ever receiving the Spirit, and Jesus commended them.

Matthew 19:27-28 (NIV)
27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”
28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Also Abraham is the father of faith for the New Covenant. He believed God, and God credited his faith with righteousness.

Note that all the Old Testament believers demonstrated their faith by obedience to God, even though not perfectly. The Book of Hebrews lists some of them.

In the New Covenant, when we repent and believe, we receive the Spirit of God to be our helper. That does not mean the Spirit guarantees our faith; rather, that the Spirit empowers our faith to follow Him if we remain in the faith. Many will fall away from the faith and be cut off.

You quote me as follows:
<<
setst RE: Were Spirit-filled believers still having problems with sin in that Churches the Paul wrote to?
>>

Aiki RE: Absolutely! See his first letter to the Corinthians. The believers at the church in Rome and the Galatian believers were also having serious issues.

You quote me as follows:
<<
So does having the Spirit assure us that we are dead to sin and bearing fruit, or are we responsible, by the Spirit to put to death in sin our lives, and to live righteously?
>>

Aiki RE: Of course, we ought to work out what God by His Spirit has first worked into us. But our salvation doesn't rest upon doing so. Our salvation is a work of God, not something we have accomplished for ourselves. And it rests upon the finished, perfect work of Christ, not our Self-effort.

setst RE: Ought to! The Scriptures scream out that we are to die to sin and live in obedience to the Spirit to be saved. I quoted a number of those Passages. One Passage comes to mind:

1 John 2:3-4 (NIV)
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

2 Tim 2:19 “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

No mincing words here, so not hard to figure out.

So what happens if you don't turn away from wickedness? You are lost.

What happens if you confess the Lord and turn away from wickedness? You are saved.

setst RE:
<<
Did the Old Testament believers have Spiritual regeneration so they could believe and walk in faith?
>>

Aiki RE:
<<
No. The "believers" in the OT were not of a kind with the born-again believers of the NT. They believed God, yes, but they were not indwelt constantly by His Spirit, renewed and redeemed as the Christians of the NT were. And it showed. King David was a murderer and adulterer; Moses was a murderer as well, and at times cowardly, temperamental, and doubting; Abraham was a liar and a coward; Jacob was conniving and deceitful; and so on.
>>

setst RE: True Daniel sinned, but he also repented and God forgave him. I would not doubt that out of the millions of Christians, that some of them also have killed someone, but later repented and God forgave them.

When I asked you "Were Spirit-filled believers still having problems with sin in the Churches the Paul wrote to? You responded:
<<"Absolutely! See his first letter to the Corinthians. The believers at the church in Rome and the Galatian believers were also having serious issues.">>

True enough, one male believer even had sex with his own mother. Paul finally forgave them.

So, are Christians today really that much different in regards to sinful issues then the believers in the Old Testament?

My point is that a person can believe in God and walk with God demonstrated in obedience before ever receiving the Spirit. And God was pleased with them, crediting righteousness to their account.

So their faith and obedience was not considered "works" to God, because their obedience came from faith.

However, many of the Jews in ancient Israel, and even the Pharisees in Jesus' day, did not live faithfully, but they did works, like offering sacrifices for their sins, giving to charity, fasting, putting ash on their faces, and other such things to prove that they bore the fruits to prove their faith was real. Their works and sacrifices were a stench in God's nostrils.

In summary: The works of the faithful pleased God, but the works of the unfaithful were not done out of love for God, rather they were works done to justify themselves before God. But God could see right though it. Do you see the difference?

Faith demonstrated by obedience is not a works salvation according to God. However hypocrites who do all kinds of works to prove their faith is genuine is a stench to God - because it is a works salvation.

So in consideration of the OT believers, we in the NT who have the Spirit by faith, what do we learn regarding the Spirit that repentant believers receive?

We learn that the Spirit was not sent to indwell believers so as to interfere with our choice to repent and believe in God, or to remain faithful. Rather, the Spirit was sent to dwell in those who have a repentant faith to work with their faith to free them from slavery from sin and death so they may live holy lives before God. This is salvation, the new life.

setst777 · May 14, 2019

aiki said:
I don't "believe the opposite" to what you've written here. I disagree with the conclusions you're drawing from these things - as Scripture itself does. See above.
No, you have this precisely backwards. The faith, obedience and eternal life of a believer is the fruit of a renewed life accomplished by God. See above.

You quote me (setst) as follows:
<<
The Power to be saved is only received by faith

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed — a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
>>

Aiki RE: And where does the faith to believe come from? God. See above.

setst RE: Where did the faith of the OT believers come from?

Faith comes by hearing the word about Christ. Rom 10:17

The Spirit works with the Gospel message to draw all men to Christ.

John 12:32 (WEB)
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Ephesians 6:17-18 (WEB)
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

Hebrews 4:12 (WEB)
12 For the word of God is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

The preaching of the Gospel is the Word of God coupled with the Spirit's convicting power that Christ commanded was to be preached to every creature.

The drawing of the Spirit and Word is, therefore, that worldwide work which is outside the person, when Christ would draw all people to himself through the Gospel preaching; yet, this drawing only led to salvation if the person did not resist.

If they did not resist, then they were drawn to repentance and faith.

For instance, the Disciples believed in Jesus and his words, and Jesus said the Spirit was with them, but not yet in them.

The same is true for the Old Testament believers - they were drawn by the Word of God and the Spirit before regeneration of the indwelling Spirit. However, many resisted just as Scripture states.

The Spiritual Life he promised to those who believe in the NT was the inward working of the Spirit - only by faith, but was only possible after Jesus was glorified.

John 7:37-39
38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them." 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

The point is that, the drawing work of the Spirit does not bring about inward change or regeneration - only the indwelling Spirit accomplishes this.

This Convicting, Enlightening and Drawing by the Spirit and Word is Not Irresistible – Many have and will Resist according to Scripture. . .

Acts 7 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do.”

Isaiah 63 (WEB) 10 But they rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit. Therefore he turned and became their enemy, and he himself fought against them.

Psalm 106 (WEB) Bolding mine…32 By the waters of Meribah they angered the Lord, and trouble came to Moses because of them; 33 for they rebelled against the Spirit of God, and rash words came from Moses’ lips.

Ephesians 4 (WEB) Bolding mine… 30 Don’t grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, outcry, and slander, be put away from you, with all malice.

Hebrews 10 (WEB) Bolding mine… 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Therefore, although the Spirit draws all people to Christ through the Gospel, not everyone drawn will believe because they resist.

Also, those who believe, those who have the Spirit, can so grieve and insult the Spirit of grace so as to lose their salvation. As the Scriptures say:

‘You must remain in Christ (the Vine) to be eternally saved.’
‘You must remain faithful to remain in the Holy Olive Root to remain saved or you will be cut off’ (See: Romans 11:19-27).

So obedience the comes from faith is not a works salvation. God delights in our obedient faith, and we only receive the Holy Spirit by an obedient faith.

Jesus became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him: Heb 5:8
Those who love Jesus will keep His commands, and the Father and Son will love that person and make their home with them Jn 14:21
Jesus commands us to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him to be saved.
we can examine ourselves to know if we are in Jesus or not: that if you claim to live in Jesus, then we MUST live as Jesus did: 1 Jn 2:5-6
in like manner, if someone says they know Jesus, but do not do what he commands, is a liar and the truth is not in that person: 1 Jn 2:4
“The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.” 2 Tim 2:19

AFTER you receive the Spirit by an obedient repentant faith, then You are obligated to:

to put to death the misdeeds of the body to live: Rom 8:12-13
offer ourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness: Rom 8:19
to live by and walk by the Spirit we receive so we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh: Gal 5:16
to sow to the Spirit to reap eternal life: Gal 6:8
to live by the Spirit to fulfill the requirements of the whole law: Rom 8:3-4
to take off the old self and to put on new self: Eph 4:24-25; Col 3:9-10
to abstain from reaping to the flesh so we may enter the Kingdom of God: 1 Cor 6:7-10; Eph 5:1-6
to live as slaves to God by which we reap holiness leading to eternal life: Rom 6:22 . . .

Romans 6:20-22 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of?
Those things result in death!
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness,
and the result is eternal life.

Notice the comparison made in Romans 6:20-22. . .
sowing to shameful deeds result in death
while being slaves to God reaps holiness resulting in eternal life.

You are obligated live as a slave of God unto holiness to receive eternal life.

aiki · May 14, 2019

setst777 said:
You had brought up the bad conduct of the Corinthians twice as an example of those Christians living in a carnal or worldly way, yet still saved, thus attempting to show that obedience is not essential for salvation because the word "must" is not used.

No, you have been using the word "must" in describing how a Christian ought to behave, citing a number of verses/passages that you think support your view. But none of the verses/passages you offered used the word "must." Not one. This should give you pause, at least. Why are you using a word in relation to obedience and salvation that Paul never does?

The Corinthian believers were petty, jealous, prideful, carnal, and even embroiled in gross sexual sin, but Paul still referred to them as "brethren," and "babes in Christ," God's "building" and His "field," as well as the "temple of God," saying also that they were Christ's. (See 1 Corinithians 3) How could they be so caught up in sin and still be considered by Paul to be of the faith? If he thought as you do, he would have considered them all apostate, believers who had lost their salvation. But he doesn't think this way about them at all.

setst777 said:
Firstly, Paul in no way condoned their activity, but rather condemned it and warned them that they must repent of such activity, for those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God 1 Corinthians 3:18-21; 1 Corinthians 6:7-11.

Did I say that Paul condoned their sin? No. He was obviously opposed to their carnality which is why, in part, he wrote to them.

setst777 said:
Secondly, by admission from you concerning the Corinthians, you agree that a Christian, the Spirit living in them, can still live for the carnal nature, therefore:

they are still sowing to the flesh, which if not repented of, will lead to corruption or destruction: Gal 6:7-8.

they are still walking according to the flesh which, if unchecked, will lead to death: Rom 8:12-13

Well, here's a glaring problem with your thinking: At what point does a Christian who is living according to the flesh, who is carnal like the Corinthian believers were, find himself unsaved? Where's the line that divides a carnal man who is still a Christian (like the Corinthians believers were) from one who has finally lost his salvation? I know of no place where such a line is defined or even mentioned. If one is carnal for two months, is one unsaved? Or maybe its two months plus a day? Perhaps a man must tell fifty lies before he's unsaved? Or is it fifty-one? Or two hundred? Scripture does not say. It seems clear to me that this is because such a line does not exist! Not for one who is truly born-again.

setst777 said:
Lord Jesus places the responsibility on Christians to repent from their fallen condition or be lost...

Revelation 2:4-7 (WEB) 4 But I have this against you, that you left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I am coming to you swiftly, and will move your lamp stand out of its place, unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of my God.

I already addressed these verses. The Church at Ephesus is being confronted here corporately. The corporate church - not any particular individual - will have its "lampstand," or public witness, removed. (See Matthew 5:14-16) In verse 7 the Spirit is no longer addressing the church corporately but the Christian individual, "him who overcomes" (1 John 4:4), making him a promise (not a threat) that as an overcomer, a born-again believer, he will one day eat of the Tree of Life in Paradise. I see no ground for a works-salvation, SAL doctrine in this passage. None. You have read into the passage, forced upon it, your thinking.

setst777 said:
Revelation 3:2-5 … 2 Wake up, and keep the things that remain, which are about to die, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it, and repent.
If therefore you do not wake up, I will come as a thief, and you won't know what hour I will come to you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

Again, there is an initial address to the church corporate at Sardis, warning the church as a corporate entity of its nearing dissolution and urging repentance. Only at verse 4 does the address to the Sardis church turn to actual individuals within it. And those genuine believers, or "overcomers," are made the promise that they will never have their names blotted out from the Book of Life. Where is the threat of salvation lost? Where is a works-salvation doctrine taught? No where.

setst777 said:
The point is that Galatians 6:7-8 and Romans 8:12 are written to Christians to warn backsliding Christians (like the Corinthians) to not walk in or reap to the flesh or they would reap destruction.

But in neither instance does anything like "backsliding Christians are warned..." appear in these verses. As I already pointed out concerning these passages, they describe contrasting states (saved and unsaved) and their resulting effects. Paul did not write in Galatians 6:7-8, "The Christian who sows to his flesh..." or "The brother who sows to his flesh..." No, Paul wrote, "He who sows..." which is used in a very generic sense in the verse. It seems evident to me from this that Paul did not have Christians in view when he wrote the verses, but, as I said, is merely putting forward a contrast between the saved and unsaved person.

Paul does the very same thing in Romans 8. He sets up a contrast between the unsaved person who walks according to the flesh and the saved person who lives according to the Spirit. The former is fleshly-minded, the latter spiritually-minded.

Romans 8:9 (NKJV)
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Here it is very evident Paul is describing, not a single person operating in two different states, but two different people operating in two different states. And what distinguishes them from each other, Paul writes, is whether or not the Spirit is indwelling. The person "in the flesh," who is fleshly-minded, does not have the Spirit within and thus is obviously not saved, or, "not His."

Romans 8:10-11 (NKJV)
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Here is the contrast to what Paul described in verse 9. This is the person in whom the Spirit dwells, infused with the divine spiritual life of Christ. Such a person is not in the flesh, but in the Spirit and thus a saved person.

Romans 8:12-13 (NKJV)
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Those people in whom the Spirit dwells are not under any compulsion to live according to the flesh, Paul writes. Those compelled by the flesh will die, he explains, but those who are Spirit-indwelt can put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit and live. It seems evident to me that Paul is saying that any among the church at Rome who are living in a fleshly-minded way, in doing so, identify themselves as those in whom the Spirit does not dwell. To these people Paul warns that they will die because they have yet to be genuinely saved.

Did Paul think that all who were a part of the Early Church were truly born-again believers? No, he didn't. (Gal. 2:4; 2 Cor. 11:13; 2 Cor. 11:26; Tit. 1:10-11; 1 Tim. 6:3-5; 2 Tim. 3:1-8) When he wrote to "the brethren," he understood that some of his readers would be false converts, "false brethren," he called them, the "tares" of which Jesus spoke. It is to them, I think, Paul wrote the sorts of things found in Galatians 6:7-8 and Romans 8:13.

setst777 said:
Another disagreement we are having is that because Scripture does not use the word "must" when commanding us to obey Christ, you conclude that obedience from us is not required or essential for salvation, but is instead a work.

No, this is a mischaracterization of my words. You have been using "must" in describing what Paul wrote when he doesn't ever use the word himself. I pointed this out as an example of how you are adding to Paul's words, going farther than he does in making your case for works-salvation.

I do believe God expects us to live holy, righteous lives. It is an important part of what the believer is called to as an adopted child of the Most High. In fact, such living is inevitable for the truly born-again person, though not always immediately so. But the inevitability of good works, of a righteous life, for one who has been born again does not equate to the necessity of good works to their salvation.

To say that works are required, are necessary for salvation is to hold to a works-salvation doctrine which the Bible repeatedly and explicitly denies. (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5)

setst777 said:
setst RE: Is the word "must" used when we are commanded to believe in Jesus to be saved? No

Does that mean believing in Jesus is not a must to be saved, just optional? John 3:16-18

Acts 16:30-31 (NKJV)
30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Acts 4:12 (NKJV)
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Hebrews 11:6 (NKJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

setst777 said:
Aiki writes: See? Paul doesn't use the word "must" in this verse.

setst RE: Not all Gentiles will come to obedience that comes from faith, but that is what God commanded. So the command is not optional, even though not all Gentiles will obey the command.

This is an evasion of my point. You said that one must obey - do good works - in order to be saved. But none of the verses you cited in support of this contention ever use the word "must." The explanation you give above is largely irrelevant to my point.

setst777 said:
setst RE: Ought to? Faith and Obedience are inseparable. What if your faith does not lead to obedience? You will not be saved.

aiki · May 14, 2019

Faith and obedience are inseparable? I suppose when one is talking about a saving faith this is true. But, again, this doesn't make obedience (ie. good works) necessary to salvation; it only makes obedience inevitable.

setst777 said:
Obedience is not inevitable, because believers can fall into sin, and sometimes they fall away and are lost or cut off...

Well, for reasons I have already carefully explained, I don't think this is what the Bible teaches. Believers may fall to temptation and sin - and even do so repeatedly and frequently. But if they do so totally comfortable in their sin, never experiencing the conviction of the Spirit and the discipline of the Heavenly Father, it seems very obvious to me, not that they have backslidden to such a state but have never been saved.

setst777 said:
You mentioned how the Corinthians were living worldly. Was their obedience inevitable?

Of course - for those who weren't false converts. But the inevitability of obedience doesn't necessitate immediately perfect obedience - as the Corinthian believers demonstrated. It is inevitable that a pot of water will boil when you put it on a red-hot stove element but this doesn't mean it will boil immediately.

setst777 said:
You, Aiki, continue as follows:
<<
This is akin to saying that an apple tree must bear apples. This is obviously false. There are apple trees that, because of immaturity, or disease, or malnourishment, or lack of water do not bear apples.
>>

setst RE: Your analogy does not work. Christ Jesus only used such analogies to show that bearing fruit, or good fruit, is essential. And if not bearing such fruit, such trees or branches will be cut down, or cut off and put into the fire: Mtt 3:10, Jn 15:1-5; Lk 13:6-9

The analogy works very well to illustrate that the nature of a thing is not necessarily always revealed in its "fruit" - as the Corinthian believers demonstrated.

John 15:1-5 is an oft-used proof-text for a saved-and-lost doctrine but a more careful reading of the passage reveals it is not. I have gone into long explanations of why this is so on other threads and am not terribly interested in doing so here right now. You can certainly look up my comments on these other threads, if you're really interested.

setst777 said:
Matthew 10:38 (NIV)
38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

The obvious implication is that, by faith (the Spirit empowering your faith) you cannot be saved without leading a holy life.

But this isn't implied at all. Jesus only says that those who neglect to die to themselves are not worthy of him. People receive things of which they are not worthy often, however. In fact, no born-again person has ever been worthy of the gift of salvation. And yet, God extends salvation to us anyway. So, no, the above verse does not imply that one cannot be saved without leading a holy life. Again, this is your twisting of the verse.

setst777 said:
setst RE: The Passage states "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit"

The subject is the person who has the Spirit. The "those" "we" and the "us" are believers who are obligated to live by the Spirit and to walk by the Spirit they received by faith.

I didn't argue against who the subject of the verse was. I pointed out that, whatever obligation you think the believer has to live rightly, they are only able to do so by the Spirit - which is exactly what the verse says, not the believer-centered twisting of the verse you posited.

setst777 said:
setst RE: The Passages you quoted do not in any way prove your point. Let's take a look at those Passages...

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins

setst RE: What does this prove? This is segment of a sentence that provides no details. I am not sure why you quoted it.

Ephesians 2:1 (NKJV)
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV)
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:1 (RSV)
2 And you he made alive, when you were dead through the trespasses and sins

Ephesians 2:1 (ASV)
2 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,

setst777 said:
Romans 8:9-11 shows that we have the Spirit living in us, however, in the very next couple verses (Rom 8:12-13), Paul puts a condition on this statement, that even though we have the Spirit, we are obligated to live by that Spirit to receive life. The obligation is not on the Spirit, but on the one who has the Spirit.

You want to keep putting the obligation on the Spirit to do it for you. Paul says, no... YOU are obligated to live by the Spirit you received to live.

And this is why I am...concerned about your walk with the Lord. Paul makes it very clear in the verses I posted that the believer's living out of their faith is entirely enabled by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:13 (NKJV)
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Not only is it from the Spirit that the very life of the believer issues (verses 9-12) but the ability to put to death the sinful deeds of the body is also facilitated by the Spirit. That you make out as though this isn't evident suggests very strongly to me how disingenuous you're being in our discussion.

setst777 said:
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit
>>

setst RE: This Passage does not state the details of how this all occurs. You have to read the Biblical instruction given regarding such issues.

But it does! Are you blind? The salvation of a believer is accomplished by the Spirit, as Paul explains in the verse above. The Spirit washes, regenerates, and renews. In Romans 8, Paul explained that the Spirit quickened, or made alive, those who were previously "dead in trespasses and sins." The Spirit is the means by which a believer is put in Christ and he in the believer. This is how vital, how fundamental, to the Christian life the Spirit is! That you are attempting to deflect or downplay this fact is simply dishonest and treats God's word very badly.

setst777 said:
After you receive the Spirit by an obedient repentant faith, then - by that same faith empowered by the Spirit living in you - you are obligated to:

to put to death the misdeeds of the body to live: Rom 8:12-13

By the Spirit, the verse stipulates.

setst777 said:
offer ourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness: Rom 8:19

You've got a wrong reference here.

setst777 said:
to live by and walk by the Spirit we receive so we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh: Gal 5:16

This is mind-boggling. The verse that is about the centrality of the Spirit to the life of a believer you have made into a verse about the duty of the believer. I've never seen such manhandling of Scripture. We live by the Spirit. We walk by the Spirit.

setst777 said:
to sow to the Spirit to reap eternal life: Gal 6:8

Is it merely sowing that produces eternal life? No. It is sowing to the Spirit that does this! You can't get away from how central and vital the Spirit is to Christian living. There simply is no Christian life without the Spirit - a fact you are illustrating in the verses you're citing.

setst777 said:
You are obligated live by that Spirit in you as a slave of God unto holiness to receive eternal life.

Of course, a Christian is obligated to live as a slave of righteousness. But he is only able to do so by the Spirit. Nothing you've pointed out so far has done anything to diminish this fact.

You know, as a former High School English teacher, I had students who thought they could obfuscate or hide their ignorance and/or lack of preparation for exams by simply writing enormous reams of words in answer to exam questions. Your responses remind me very much of these wordy students. You are, with a great multitude of words and Bible references, often talking completely past my points. I can't tell if you simply don't understand them or are purposefully obfuscating and deflecting.

setst777 said:
Aiki RE: Amen! But this the result of God's work in us by His Spirit; it is not the product of our Self-effort. No man can crucify himself physically. It's just impossible. And no man can crucify himself spiritually. Doing so is also impossible, which is why God has crucified us with Christ.

setst RE:
The Spirit is our helper for those who believe. The Spirit will not believe for you. Faith is your responsibility not only to receive the Spirit, but also to receive the help of the indwelling Spirit.

See? Here's what I mean by talking past my point. I'm talking about the necessity of being crucified by God, not Self-effort, but you're responding by talking about the Spirit not believing for you. How is your response at all relevant to my point about how a person is crucified with Christ?

setst777 said:
Aiki RE: Of course, we ought to work out what God by His Spirit has first worked into us. But our salvation doesn't rest upon doing so. Our salvation is a work of God, not something we have accomplished for ourselves. And it rests upon the finished, perfect work of Christ, not our Self-effort.

setst RE: Ought to! The Scriptures scream out that we are to die to sin and live in obedience to the Spirit to be saved. I quoted a number of those Passages. One Passage comes to mind:

Here, too, you talk past my point again. I've made a point about the salvation of a believer being accomplished by God through Christ but you go off about Scripture "screaming," and dying to sin, and being obedient to the Spirit. Are you even actually reading and considering what I write? It doesn't seem like it.

setst777 · May 15, 2019

aiki said:
Faith and obedience are inseparable? I suppose when one is talking about a saving faith this is true. But, again, this doesn't make obedience (ie. good works) necessary to salvation; it only makes obedience inevitable.

Hi Aiki,

You quote me (setst) as follows:

<<
You had brought up the bad conduct of the Corinthians twice as an example of those Christians living in a carnal or worldly way, yet still saved, thus attempting to show that obedience is not essential for salvation because the word "must" is not used.
<<

Aiki replies:
<<
No, you have been using the word "must" in describing how a Christian ought to behave, citing a number of verses/passages that you think support your view. But none of the verses/passages you offered used the word "must." Not one. This should give you pause, at least. Why are you using a word in relation to obedience and salvation that Paul never does?

The Corinthian believers were petty, jealous, prideful, carnal, and even embroiled in gross sexual sin, but Paul still referred to them as "brethren," and "babes in Christ," God's "building" and His "field," as well as the "temple of God," saying also that they were Christ's. (See 1 Corinithians 3) How could they be so caught up in sin and still be considered by Paul to be of the faith? If he thought as you do, he would have considered them all apostate, believers who had lost their salvation. But he doesn't think this way about them at all.
>>

setst RE:
Using your logic.. No Passage states we "must" believe in Jesus to be saved.

We have to know how to communicate before we can understand instruction of any kind. For instance a Biblical command or instruction to obey anything does not have to have the word "must" to know that it is a "must." For instance, I know I must believe in Jesus to be saved because of the instruction given in the Gospel, but no verse states that I must believe in Jesus to be saved.

God is patient, in that he allows time to repent, as revealed by Lord Jesus when admonishing the individuals in the churches in Revelation. That patience does not mean that obedience is optional, or that walking in the Spirit is optional, but that God is giving them time to repent.

But if they didn't repent of walking in the flesh, if they did not walk in the Spirit, they would not enter the kingdom of God, just as Paul warned the Corinthians and the Galatians.

Also in Revelation Lord Jesus warned the Christians in the Churches to repent or be lost.

For instance:

Galatians 5:
14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. ... I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

No Christian is permitted to continue in sin and still think he will still enter the kingdom of God. God places the responsibility on us to -

not only stop living in the flesh -
but to walk by the Spirit,

as Paul was instructing the Galatians to do.

It is up to each Christian not to go on sinning, but to live a new life of the Spirit.

Romans 6:1-6 (NIV)
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life....

Aiki writes:
<<
Where's the line that divides a carnal man who is still a Christian (like the Corinthians believers were) from one who has finally lost his salvation?
>>

setst RE: God accepts nothing less from a born again Christian then to walk by the Spirit he causes to dwell in you by faith - to live righteous and holy lives before Him.

Yes, God will allow repentance, and God is patient, however, to those who are given much, much is required...

Old Testament believers also lived their faith in obedience to God, however God holds Christians to a higher standard because they were given the indwelling Spirit.

Since Christians are given God's special help by the indwelling Spirit, then they should not expect to be controlled by any sin or vice and still think they are acceptable, or that God will overlook it.

Both the OT believers and NT believers are saved by an obedient faith. There is no difference there.

The difference is, that Christians are born of God by faith in Jesus Christ, thus held to the highest standard of holiness because they are receiving the help of the Counselor.

Faith must be demonstrated by obedience.

Acts 26:20 (NIV)
20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

The responsibility is on YOU to turn away from unrighteousness:

2 Timothy 2:19 (NIV)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

The responsibility is on you to walk by the Spirit God gave you to be saved. The OT believers didn't have the Spirit of God, but they still believed and walked with God. So don't use the born of God card to think you are not obligated to live and walk by that Spirit to be given eternal life or that you are guaranteed to be saved. You are commanded to sow to the Spirit you received by faith to inherit eternal life, just as the Scriptures teach.
>>

After I quoted Revelation 2:4-7, Aiki Responds (in part) as follows:
<<
In verse 7 the Spirit is no longer addressing the church corporately but the Christian individual, "him who overcomes" (1 John 4:4), making him a promise (not a threat) that as an overcomer, a born-again believer, he will one day eat of the Tree of Life in Paradise.
>>

setst RE: When Lord Jesus addressed the church corporately, was he commanding a church building to repent, or was Jesus talking to each Christian within the corporate church to repent?

And the ones who did repent, what is the outcome?

Revelation 3:2-5, which I also quoted previously, makes more clear for you that Jesus was not talking to a church building, but to the Christians in the Church:

Revelation 3:4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

Notice that besides those who have not defiled their garments, Jesus is also calling on the others in the church to repent so they too can be counted worthy to receive white robes, and their names remain in the Book of Life.

The implication here is that if you do not repent, then your name is blotted out from the book of life - meaning once saved does not mean always saved. You must remain faithful. Jesus is not addressing believers and non-believers in the Churches, he is giving those in the churches time to repent of their laxity of faith and love, and for their bad deeds.

You quote me (setst) as follows:
<<
The point is that Galatians 6:7-8 and Romans 8:12 are written to Christians to warn backsliding Christians (like the Corinthians) to not walk in or reap to the flesh or they would reap destruction.
>>

Aiki RE: But in neither instance does anything like "backsliding Christians are warned..." appear in these verses.

setst RE: The Galatians were backsliding. That is why Paul wrote the letter to the Galatians - to address their many issues.

Read Galatians 5.
He warns them not to be deceived, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. Paul is writing that as instruction and warning to those reading what he wrote - Christians.

When I read it, I take it personally, just as Paul meant it to be written. I am not all of the sudden thinking that anytime Paul is talking about sinning or walking in the flesh that this does not pertain to me. I take such Passages as sober reminders to be diligent and not become lax in my faithfulness to my Lord.

So, relating this instruction to the Corinthians and the Galatians, Paul in no way condoned their activity, but rather condemned it and warned them that they must repent of such activity, for those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God: Galatians 5:13-21; 1 Corinthians 6:7-11.

Secondly, the instruction in Galatians 6:7-8 is a valid comparison because:

• Since the Galatians are still walking in the flesh, then, if not repented of, will lead to corruption or destruction:
Gal 6:7-8 - as Paul instructed - "would not inherit the kingdom of God."
• they are still walking according to the flesh which, if unchecked, will lead to death. See also Rom 8:12-13

Notice, that the whole letter to the Galatians was to be read, not parts of it. Same as the Epistle to the Corinthians. It's all for their instruction.

Aiki writes:
<<
Paul did not write in Galatians 6:7-8, "The Christian who sows to his flesh..." or "The brother who sows to his flesh..." No, Paul wrote, "He who sows..." which is used in a very generic sense in the verse. It seems evident to me from this that Paul did not have Christians in view when he wrote the verses...
>>

setst RE: How does a (generic) unbeliever sow to the Spirit???
That is your opinion; however, Paul doesn't write Galatians 6:7-8 in a vacuum. He meant those verses to be read in the context that was intended. Let us look at the very next verse:

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let US not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time WE will reap a harvest IF WE do not give up.

Pretty clear for anyone with an unbiased mind to see that Paul's instruction about reaping and sowing was directed to the Galatians as a lesson and warning that they will:

reap a harvest "IF" WE do not give up.
"give up" would mean that "WE" reaped to the flesh instead.
To 'reap a harvest' means that "WE" would have to sow to the Spirit to reap a harvest - eternal life, unless you think Paul was talking about the barely crops that year.

In context, Paul wrote Galatians 6:7-9 because the Galatians were, in fact, sowing to the flesh - they were walking in the flesh, in which case Paul warned that those who live like this will not inherit the Kingdom of God...

Galatians 5:13-26 (NIV)
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

After that, Paul warns them that those who live like that, along with a list of other sins, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now in the immediate context of Galatians 6:7-9 we can readily understand that the reaping and sowing Passage was written as instruction and warning to the Galatians within the context, because Paul is not even discussing non-believers, but rather addressed the Galatian' brothers and sisters...

Galatians 6:1-9
1 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5 for each one should carry their own load. 6 Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Can you see the context? It thought all flows together in an orderly smooth fashion. This instruction to the Galatian' brothers and sisters flows smoothly from verse 1 to verse 9.

Paul does not show a break in thought to discuss unbelievers. Rather, Paul summarizes his thoughts by telling Brothers not to live for the flesh but live for the Spirit who gives eternal life. If you cannot see this, that is not the fault of the instruction given, but your own refusal to admit this.

Also, who did Paul have in mind when he similarly wrote about reaping in the following verses:

Romans 6:19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations.
Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Notice the comparison made:
• that shameful deeds reaped no benefits and resulted in death
• while being slaves to God reaps holiness resulting in eternal life.

Notice the similarity of Romans 6:21-22 with Galatians 5:7-9 about:

sowing to the flesh reaps destruction and
sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.

Clearly Paul is instructing and warning the Christian brothers and sisters, not the unbelievers in those Passages.

setst777 · May 15, 2019

aiki said:
Faith and obedience are inseparable? I suppose when one is talking about a saving faith this is true. But, again, this doesn't make obedience (ie. good works) necessary to salvation; it only makes obedience inevitable.

Aiki continues:
<<
Paul does the very same thing in Romans 8. He sets up a contrast between the unsaved person who walks according to the flesh and the saved person who lives according to the Spirit. The former is fleshly-minded, the latter spiritually-minded.
>>

setst RE: Actually, if you read the context, Paul is not contrasting believers to unbelievers. Rather, Paul is showing that, although we have the Spirit dwelling in us, we must live by that Spirit to receive life, and that we must not live to the flesh...

Look at the context from the beginning where Paul sets this concept in place...

Romans 8 (NIV)
8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in US, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Notice, from the very beginning Paul is referring the "US" the ones who receive the Spirit from Jesus Christ to give us life vs 1-2. Such have the indwelling Spirit, but the condition is that the Spirit filled believer still has to live according to the Spirit - not the flesh in verse 4...

verse 4... the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in US, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Do you see the condition given?

Paul makes a distinction -

not about the Spirit dwelling or not dwelling,
not about believers and unbelievers
but about living by that Spirit that indwells Christians.

We know this because verse 4 does not discuss dwelling or not dwelling of the Holy Spirit. Rather, he is establishing a condition for those who already have the Spirit - the "US."

In verses 4-8 Paul, still addressing those who have the Spirit, about being governed by the Spirit and not the flesh.

But how are Spirit filled believers to be governed by the Spirit and not the flesh?

In verse 9-13, Paul concludes this instruction by stressing the "condition" he made in verse 4, which is, that while its true we have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us, that we belong to Christ (vs 9-11), we "brothers and sisters" are still 'obligated' to live by that Spirit who dwells in us so that we may live. Because if you instead live by the flesh, you will die. Same instructions as in verse 4...

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—
but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.

13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but
if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Compare to verse 4...

verse 4... the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us,

who do not live according to the flesh
but according to the Spirit.

Notice the repetition Paul used to get his point across?

And isn't that the message given to Christians throughout the New Testament? Christians are warned against falling away, against being deceived, against falling into temptation and sin against walking in the flesh. But, if we live by the Spirit, we will remain living a holy life before God, and, in the end, eternal life.

The obligation is on the Spirit-filled believer to refrain from living in the flesh or they will die, and instead living by the Spirit that indwells them to receive eternal life.

Christians, even though having the Spirit, can still be tempted to be controlled by the flesh...

We already saw Passages in Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, and Corinthians, etc, now let's turn to James who is talking to the "beloved brothers" warns them not to be deceived. Why? Let's read...

James 1:12-15
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then the lust, when it has conceived, bears sin; and the sin, when it is full grown, produces death. 16 Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers.

James is warning the beloved brothers to

endure temptation to receive LIFE,
not to be deceived - that if they let any sin control them they will die.

Same instruction as Paul gave in Romans 8:12-13, and Galatians 6:7-9 previously addressed.

Aiki writes:
<<
Did Paul think that all who were a part of the Early Church were truly born-again believers? No, he didn't. (Gal. 2:4; 2 Cor. 11:13; 2 Cor. 11:26; Tit. 1:10-11; 1 Tim. 6:3-5; 2 Tim. 3:1-8) When he wrote to "the brethren," he understood that some of his readers would be false converts, "false brethren...
>>

setst RE:

Let us look at those Passages you gave:

<<
Galatians 2:4 4 This was because of the false brothers secretly brought in, who stole in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage;
>>

setst RE: Notice Paul specifically identifies to his Christian readers that he is talking about "false brothers" - not about "brethren (inclusive to the reader)." Do you see the difference?

<<
2 Corinthians 11:12-13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as Christ’s apostles.
>>

setst RE: Paul is specifically writing to Christians about "such men" and false apostles that are trying to imitate Paul and the other Apostles. He doesn't want Christians (the ones he is writing to) to be mislead.

Paul is not saying the Christians he was writing to fit into that category.
He is not identifying the false apostles or "such men" as "brethren" or "us" or "you" etc.

<<
2 Corinthians 11:26 I have been in travels often. . .perils in the sea, perils among false brothers...
>>

setst RE: Paul describes his travels - not about the Christians he is writing to. One of the perils he endured was "false brothers." This in no way means that the brethren that Paul is writing to all of the sudden means they too are false brothers that he met on his travels.

<<
Titus 1:10-11
10 For there are also many unruly men, vain talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped; men who overthrow whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for dishonest gain’s sake.
>>

setst RE:

Are the people mentioned here "brethren"?
Does Paul in include the Christian reader as one of them he is talking about?
Does Paul define them as "we" or "us"?
Does it sound like such as mentioned here believe in the Gospel, since Paul identifies them as "those of the circumcision?"

<<
1 Timothy 6:3-5
3 If anyone teaches a different doctrine, and doesn’t consent to sound words, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness. . .
>>

setst RE: "If anyone is teaching a different doctrine, and doesn't consent to sound words" of Jesus Christ, and doctrine according to godliness, are they brethren?

Paul is addressing the reader about false brethren, not about the reader.

Notice what Paul writes about godliness...

1 Timothy 4:8 (WEB)
8 For bodily exercise has some value, but godliness has value in all things, having the promise of the life which is now, and of that which is to come.

2 Timothy 3:1-8 (WEB)
3 But know this, that in the last days, grievous times will come... 5 holding a form of godliness, but having denied its power.

See also:
2 Peter 3:11-12 (WEB)
11 Therefore since all these things will be destroyed like this, what kind of people ought you to be in holy living and godliness, 12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, which will cause the burning heavens to be dissolved, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

I dare say, if your faith is not demonstrated by a life of godliness and holiness you will perish. Would you agree? Or is this non-essential because the word "must" is not used?

Aiki writes:
<<
But the inevitability of good works, of a righteous life, for one who has been born again does not equate to the necessity of good works to their salvation.
>>

setst RE:
Acts 26:20 (NIV)
20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

"should" implies that the responsibility is on the individual, not only to repent, but to demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

The Bible never teaching inevitability of good works for born again Christians? The fact is that not all born again believers will remain faithful in sowing to the Spirit and will reap destruction. Proof shortly

The same was true for the OT believers. Even before the Spirit was given, the true believes in God could do nothing but walk with God by faith unless they fell away.

The Bible is full of examples and warnings against falling away.

Do not be deceived, born again Christians are obligated to walk by the Spirit, demonstrated in righteous deeds to be saved, to remain under God's grace and Spirit...

Do not think you can insult the Spirit of grace and still be saved...

Hebrews 10:29 (NIV)
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Notice that the object of severe punishment were saved because they were "sanctified by the blood of the covenant" and they insulted the Spirit of grace.

Hebrews 3:12-13 (NIV)
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.

No guarantees of remaining faithful for born again Christians here.

God delights in our obedient faith, and we only receive the Holy Spirit, and are saved, by an obedient faith.

• Jesus became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him: Heb 5:8
• Those who love Jesus will keep His commands, and the Father and Son will love that person and make their home with them Jn 14:21
• Jesus commands us to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him to be saved.
• we can examine ourselves to know if we are in Jesus or not: that if you claim to live in Jesus, then we MUST live as Jesus did: 1 Jn 2:5-6
• in like manner, if someone says they know Jesus, but do not do what he commands, is a liar and the truth is not in that person: 1 Jn 2:4
• “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.” 2 Tim 2:19

The Scripture instruction makes clear that the responsibility is on the born again Christian to live by the Spirit, not that the Spirit does the work for you:

1 Corinthians 9:27 (NIV)
27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

1 Timothy 4 16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because IF you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

2 Timothy 4:7-8 (Paul wrote this near what he thought would be his end soon)
7 I have fought the good fight. I have finished the course. I have kept the faith. 8 From now on, there is stored up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give to me on that day; and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved his appearing.

Revelation 2:10-11 (WEB) 10 Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death.

You are responsible to be faithful and to overcome. The Spirit will not do that for you. Rather, the Spirit will empower you as you, by faith, overcome.

YOU are responsible to:

• to put to death the misdeeds of the body to live: Rom 8:12-13
• offer ourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness: Rom 8:19
• to live by and walk by the Spirit we receive so we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh: Gal 5:16
• to sow to the Spirit to reap eternal life: Gal 6:8
• to live by the Spirit to fulfill the requirements of the whole law: Rom 8:3-4
• to take off the old self and to put on new self: Eph 4:24-25; Col 3:9-10
• to abstain from reaping to the flesh so we may enter the Kingdom of God: 1 Cor 6:7-10; Eph 5:1-6
• to live as slaves to God by which we reap holiness leading to eternal life: Rom 6:22 . .

Aiki writes:
<<
To say that works are required, are necessary for salvation is to hold to a works-salvation doctrine which the Bible repeatedly and explicitly denies. (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5)
>>

setst RE: A genuine Faith is demonstrated in obedience and a righteous life before God.

Acts 26:20 (NIV)
20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

So, very clear. A genuine saving faith is never void of repentance and obedience..

Also, if that person's faith does not include repentance - then any works done are done to try to justify himself before God while still being a slave to the sinful nature - THAT is how GOD defines a works salvation.

Romans 6 (NIV)
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin (repentance); how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

setst777 · May 15, 2019

aiki said:
Faith and obedience are inseparable? I suppose when one is talking about a saving faith this is true. But, again, this doesn't make obedience (ie. good works) necessary to salvation; it only makes obedience inevitable.

Hi Aiki

Let us look at your Passages...

<<
Ephesians 2:8-9 New International Version (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
>>

setst RE:
Ephesians 2:8-9 shows us that:

grace is accessed through faith.
Verse 9 refers to grace (the subject), because:
saving faith (the agent) onto salvation is not a gift or work according to Scripture.
Grace onto salvation is God's gracious gift that we only accessed by faith as Scripture declares.
Grace onto salvation is the gift of God and is only access by faith according to Scripture.

Romans 5:1-2 (NIV)
5 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

>>
2 Timothy 1:9 (NIV)
9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life — not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
<<

setst RE:
No one disagrees with this. However, his one verse does not explain the whole process of salvation - that is why we have the the rest of the Scriptures. You have to read such statements in the context of the Gospel revelation to understand HOW this takes place.

We are called to a holy life through faith in Jesus.

We did not do anything to earn God's gracious gift, rather, God gives it freely to those who humbly fall down before Jesus in repentant faith. And faith is not a work.

John 3:16-18 (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

<<
Titus 3:5 New International Version (NIV)
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
>>

setst RE: I already answered this Passage in an earlier message, and you did not refute it.

This Passage does not state the details of how this all occurs. You have to read the Biblical instruction that God gave us regarding such issues.

For instance:

We received the Holy Spirit of rebirth and renewal by a repentant and obedient faith (Acts 2:32, Act 2:38, Jn 14:15-17). That is how we receive the New Life.

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things,
and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Acts 2:38
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 14:15-17 (NIV)
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth.

The renewal comes about as we obey the Spirit that we receive by faith:

Ephesians 4:20-30 (NIV)
20 That, however, is not the way of life you learned 21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Aike quotes me (setst) as follows:
<<
setst RE: Is the word "must" used when we are commanded to believe in Jesus to be saved? No

Does that mean believing in Jesus is not a must to be saved, just optional? John 3:16-18
>>

Aiki RE with Passages, which I will now address:

<<
Acts 16:30-31 (NKJV)
30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
>>

setst RE: This Scripture does not say you "must" believe. Using your logic I would respond: There may be other ways by which we must be saved. But believing is one of those options.

<<
Acts 4:12 (NKJV)
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
>>

setst RE:
Using your logic: Doesn't mention believing. Apparently believing is not necessary according to your logic.

<<
Hebrews 11:6 (NKJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
>>

setst RE:
Using your logic: Is believing that God exists enough to be saved? What about the Gospel? Can you be saved without the Gospel?, just by believing God exists?

Now what about this verse?

2 Timothy 2:19 (NIV)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

Is turning away from wickedness your responsibility? and must you do that to belong to Jesus?

Aiki writes:
<<
This is an evasion of my point. You said that one must obey - do good works - in order to be saved. But none of the verses you cited in support of this contention ever use the word "must." The explanation you give above is largely irrelevant to my point.
>>

setst RE:
No, I said you must demonstrate your faith by obedience to be saved for the 15th time.

The command of God is to call all Gentiles to obedience that comes from faith.

Romans 1:5 (NIV)
5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

Is this call to obedience optional, or is it a must?
Or is obeying God's call optional?
Is this communication too difficult to understand?

setst wrote:
<<
Ought to? Faith and Obedience are inseparable. What if your faith does not lead to obedience? You will not be saved.
>>

Aiki responds:
<<
Faith and obedience are inseparable? I suppose when one is talking about a saving faith this is true. But, again, this doesn't make obedience (ie. good works) necessary to salvation; it only makes obedience inevitable.
>>

setst RE:
Inevitable?
Where did you find that word in Scripture?

Are you responsible to demonstrate your faith by your deeds?

Acts 26:20 (NIV)
20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

Will a saving faith always lead to salvation, or can a person be lost by not remaining, or enduring in that faith?

What do the Scriptures say?

Revelation 14:11-12 (NIV)
11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

"This calls for patient endurance" means to me that, considering what will happen to the lost, I am reminded to patiently endure, to keep his commands and remain faithful or I will end up tormented as well. And I do not consider that an option just because the word "must" is not used.

James 1:12 (NIV)
12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

If the Lord makes a promise to those who love him, does that mean loving God is OUR choice?

This tells me that the responsibility is on the believer to persevere under trial, that I must pass the test, to receive the crown of life - and not that my salvation is guaranteed.

Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches (plural - not nations of Israel but actual people) were broken off so that I (talking to individuals) could be grafted in.”
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you (individual Christians) stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches (plural for Jews), he will not spare you (the Christian he is talking to) either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Branches are individuals.
Gentiles are included by faith.

Romans 11:25... Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles (Plural individual believers) has come in.

No Gentile nations here. And their is only one Israel, not many Israels.

Gentiles are grafted in by faith,
but must remain faithful
or be cut off for not remaining faithful.
That is why we must be afraid.

setst wrote:
<<
Matthew 10:38 (NIV)
38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

The obvious implication is that, by faith (the Spirit empowering your faith) you cannot be saved without leading a holy life.
>>

Aiki responds:
<<
But this isn't implied at all. Jesus only says that those who neglect to die to themselves are not worthy of him. People receive things of which they are not worthy often, however. In fact, no born-again person has ever been worthy of the gift of salvation. And yet, God extends salvation to us anyway. So, no, the above verse does not imply that one cannot be saved without leading a holy life. Again, this is your twisting of the verse.
>>

setst RE:
Not implied at all???

That is interesting. No repentence, no following Jesus, and Jesus states you are unworthy of Him, and you are still saved.

Wow!

Mark 8:34-38 (NIV)
34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 35 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it. 36 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? 37 Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?

You don't consider yourself worthy of eternal life?
Then how will you be saved?

Acts 13:46 (NIV)
46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider YOURSELVES worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

Philippians 1:27 Whatever happens, conduct YOURSELVES in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ.

1 Thessalonians 2:11-12 (NIV)
11 For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children, 12 encouraging, comforting and urging YOU to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.

2 Thessalonians 1:5 (NIV)
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result YOU will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.

Revelation 3:4 (NIV)
4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for THEY are worthy.

setst777 · May 15, 2019

aiki said:
Faith and obedience are inseparable? I suppose when one is talking about a saving faith this is true. But, again, this doesn't make obedience (ie. good works) necessary to salvation; it only makes obedience inevitable.

Hi Aiki

setst wrote:
<<
The Passage states "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit"
The subject is the person who has the Spirit. The "those" "we" and the "us" are believers who are obligated to live by the Spirit and to walk by the Spirit they received by faith.
>>

Aiki writes:
<<
I didn't argue against who the subject of the verse was. I pointed out that, whatever obligation you think the believer has to live rightly, they are only able to do so by the Spirit - which is exactly what the verse says, not the believer-centered twisting of the verse you posited.
>>

setst RE: The Passage actually teaches that:

"If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit"

The instruction is clear. The responsibility is on the believer to live by the Spirit and walk by the Spirit.

No coded language here. Paul is plainly declaring the truth, and you want to hide that truth by your biased re-interpretation and twisting of the clear statement of Inspired Scripture.

Aiki writes:
<<
And this is why I am...concerned about your walk with the Lord. Paul makes it very clear in the verses I posted that the believer's living out of their faith is entirely enabled by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:13 (NKJV)
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
>>

setst RE:
You quote Romans 8:13 but conveniently neglect Romans 8:12 which clearly shows that "if by the Spirit" does not mean the Spirit is doing it, but that the obligation is on you...

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, WE have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Also this doctrine about Spiritual enabling: Where in the Scriptures is the Spirit said to enable?

Also:...
IF is a conditional word.

The condition "IF" is not on the Spirit,
The condition "IF" is on on YOU.

"IF by the Spirit YOU put to death .... You will live."

The obligation is yours to live by the Spirit. That is what the Scripture states.

The Spirit will not believe for you
You only receive the Spirit by a repentant obedient faith.
All the OT believes did not have the indwelling Spirit

The Spirit, therefore, works with your faith to put to death the misdeeds of the body.

If your faith was not included, and the Spirit did this all for you, then you would never sin in your entire life.

So, you are required to endure in the faith. If you do, the Spirit will work with your faith to give you victory over sin.

Revelation 2:7 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11 The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 3:5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life

Revelation 21:7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

Aiki quotes Passages which I will respond to in the following:
<<
Ephesians 2:1 (NKJV)
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
>>

setst RE: No one disagrees with this. Now you have to read the context of the Gospel to learn HOW one is made alive who were dead in tresspasses and sins...

How are we are made alive?

Answer: By the Spirit indwelling us...

Romans 8:9

You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.

WHEN and HOW do we receive the indwelling Spirit?
Answer: Only by a repentant and obedient faith does the Spirit indwell us...

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things,
and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Acts 2:38
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 14:15-17 (NIV)
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth.

A person dead in sin can repent and believe, before ever receiving the Spirit to give them life.

John 7:37-39 (NIV) Bolding mine

37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice,
“Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.
38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.
Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Its up to you to believe to receive the Spirit
Its up to you come and drink

OT believer did not receive the Holy Spirit when they believed.

setst wrote:
<<
Romans 8:9-11 shows that we have the Spirit living in us, however, in the very next couple verses (Rom 8:12-13), Paul puts a condition on this statement, that even though we have the Spirit, we are obligated to live by that Spirit to receive life. The obligation is not on the Spirit, but on the one who has the Spirit.

You want to keep putting the obligation on the Spirit to do it for you. Paul says, no... YOU are obligated to live by the Spirit you received to live.

You are obligated live by that Spirit in you as a slave of God unto holiness to receive eternal life.
>>

Aiki responds:
<<
Of course, a Christian is obligated to live as a slave of righteousness. But he is only able to do so by the Spirit. Nothing you've pointed out so far has done anything to diminish this fact.
>>

setst: You changed the verse.

The Passage does not say we are obligated to live as a slave to righteousness but obligated to, by the Spirit, put the death the misdeeds of the body. I quote you:

"Of course, a Christian is obligated to live as a slave of righteousness. But he is only able to do so by the Spirit."

Here is what the verse actually states:

Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Notice the obligation is for YOU. The Spirit will not live your life for you. The Spirit will not believe for you. The Spirit is your Helper, and will never usurp your choice to remain faithful or not. But if you do remain faithful to live by the Spirit, by that Spirit you will receive power to overcome sin and to receive eternal life.

Same thing stated in the following Passage:

Galatians 6:8
8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

You are responsible to sow to please the Spirit so you may, from that Spirit, reap eternal life.

Aiki wrote:
<<
And no man can crucify himself spiritually.
>>

setst RE:
Galatians 5:24
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Romans 12

12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy,
to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—
this is your true and proper worship.
2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world,
but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

Paul is urging the Brothers and Sisters to:
1) offer your bodies as a living sacrifice
2) this is YOUR true and proper worship
3) Do not conform to the pattern of this world
4) be transformed by the renewing of your mind

These are all commands by the Apostle Paul for Christians to do.

Your responsible to live a holy life before God, to crucify your flesh.

Yes, the Spirit helps you,
Yes, the Spirit frees you from sin

But only as you faithfully live by the Spirit.
The Spirit will not believe for you.
The Spirit will not do it for you.

You are obligated to live by the Spirit to receive life.

aiki · May 16, 2019

setst777 said:
setst RE:
Using your logic.. No Passage states we "must" believe in Jesus to be saved.

I gave you three instances where "must" is used in relation to salvation. Why are you pretending I didn't? Here, let me give them to you once again:

Acts 16:30-31 (NKJV)
30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Acts 4:12 (NKJV)
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Hebrews 11:6 (NKJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

(This last passage isn't as obvious in how it answers your assertion about "no passages state we must believe in Jesus to be saved." When a person comes to Christ for salvation, he is coming to God, and this verse makes it clear that one must do so believing that He is, that he exists, and that He will reward those who come to Him in faith and humility, seeking salvation.)

setst777 said:
We have to know how to communicate before we can understand instruction of any kind. For instance a Biblical command or instruction to obey anything does not have to have the word "must" to know that it is a "must." For instance, I know I must believe in Jesus to be saved because of the instruction given in the Gospel, but no verse states that I must believe in Jesus to be saved.

Concerning the mistaken assertion that no verse says we must believe in Jesus to be saved, see above. Where there are some few verses that do clearly indicate that we must believe in Christ to be saved, there are no verses at all that say that one must do good works in order to be - and to stay - saved. We do, though, have verses that explicitly deny that works have anything whatever to do with salvation. (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5) This is not the case with believing on Christ for salvation. The parallel you're trying to draw, then, between "must do good works in order to be saved" and "must believe in Jesus to be saved" is not appropriate.

Is "ought" or "should" equivalent to "must"? No. It is one thing for a father to say to his son, "You ought to eat your vegetables." It is quite another when the father says, "You must eat your vegetables." In the first instance, the son has an option not to eat his vegetables even if it's better if he does; in the second instance, the son has no such option but must eat the vegetables no matter what. Clearly, "ought" and "must" are not synonymous or equivalent.

setst777 said:
God is patient, in that he allows time to repent, as revealed by Lord Jesus when admonishing the individuals in the churches in Revelation. That patience does not mean that obedience is optional, or that walking in the Spirit is optional, but that God is giving them time to repent.

If the churches were not obeying God - as the Spirit indicated was the case through John - and were not rejected by God, then it follows that obedience was optional - temporarily, at least. If obedience were not optional, there would have been no room for disobedience at all.

setst777 said:
But if they didn't repent of walking in the flesh, if they did not walk in the Spirit, they would not enter the kingdom of God, just as Paul warned the Corinthians and the Galatians.

Again, concerning the verses you're referring to here, Paul was not threatening Christians with a loss of salvation in them, but describing and contrasting the saved life with the unsaved life and explaining that there was more to the Christian life than merely living in the Spirit. A believer who lives (by) in the Spirit can also walk (by) in the Spirit. How this translates into a threat of lost salvation is beyond me - and the plain intent of the verse.

setst777 said:
Also in Revelation Lord Jesus warned the Christians in the Churches to repent or be lost.

No, he didn't. As I pointed out, when speaking to individual believers in the Ephesus and Sardis churches, the Spirit makes promises of eternal life not threats of lost salvation. "Overcomers," as John explained in his first letter, is a term referring to the born-again believer, the person in whom God dwells:

1 John 4:4 (NKJV)
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

Overcoming is the effect of God being within His children. It is a mark of genuine salvation. To be an overcomer is to be a born-again person. So, when the Spirit says,

"...To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God," he is saying that, to the person in whom God dwells, the fruit of the Tree of Life will be given. This is not a threat, but a joy-giving promise! How sad it is that all you see, apparently, is danger and threat. But this is what happens when grace and love is replaced by fear and Self-effort.

setst777 said:
No Christian is permitted to continue in sin and still think he will still enter the kingdom of God.

No truly born-again person will continue comfortably and persistently in sin. Any who do and call themselves Christians are lying to themselves and to God. But genuine Christians do struggle with sin. And, sometimes, they fall prey to temptation. This does not mean their salvation is in jeopardy, however. As the Corinthian believers demonstrated, carnality and sin do not result in lost salvation.

setst777 said:
God places the responsibility on us to -

not only stop living in the flesh -

but to walk by the Spirit,

as Paul was instructing the Galatians to do.

God tells us to do these things because He has already given to us in the Person of His Spirit all we need to do what He has commanded of us. We are merely conduits of God's power, receptors and transmitters of His transforming work. As Paul wrote, we work out only what God has first worked into us. (Philippians 2:12-13) If you don't get this right, if you seek to do for God rather than allowing Him to do for you, the result is Self-centered, corrupt, Self-effort which God does not accept.

setst777 said:
Aiki writes:
<<
Where's the line that divides a carnal man who is still a Christian (like the Corinthians believers were) from one who has finally lost his salvation?
>>

setst RE: God accepts nothing less from a born again Christian then to walk by the Spirit he causes to dwell in you by faith - to live righteous and holy lives before Him.

Yes, God will allow repentance, and God is patient, however, to those who are given much, much is required...

You didn't answer my question or address my point. As you often do, you talked past my comments here. I'll ask you again: Where is the line, exactly, that one crosses from a saved state to an unsaved state? Knowing where such a line is would be absolutely vital to walking rightly with God, it seems to me. But no such line is ever defined in Scripture. The Bible speaks to us in generalities concerning how we ought to live. It doesn't stipulate that one lie dissolves a person's salvation, or that twenty do; it doesn't indicate that one lustful thought destroys one's salvation, or that fifty do; it doesn't warn us that neglecting to pray for a week, or a month, forfeits one's salvation. No, a line is never drawn because there is no such line for the genuinely born-again believer.

setst777 said:
Both the OT believers and NT believers are saved by an obedient faith. There is no difference there.

No, they were saved (or justified in the case of OT saints) by faith alone. Obedience (though, not constant, perfect obedience) was the inevitable consequence of that faith.

setst777 said:
Faith must be demonstrated by obedience.

This is no where stated in Scripture. Faith ought to manifest in good works, but Scripture never says, "Faith must be demonstrated by obedience." No, all Scripture says it that faith will manifest in obedience. You really do need to figure out the difference between inevitable and necessary.

setst777 said:
Acts 26:20 (NIV)
20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

Where is the "must" here? Where is it said that the deeds arising from repentance are imperative, that they must appear no matter what? No where. All Paul says here is that he urged the Gentiles to be saved and then to live like they are. He doesn't say he told them that they must do so or else.

setst777 said:
The responsibility is on YOU to turn away from unrighteousness:

2 Timothy 2:19 (NIV)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

The responsibility is on you to walk by the Spirit God gave you to be saved.

You have been slippery here, cherry-picking a Bible version that helps your case. Comparatively few versions use "must" when rendering this verse. The majority of versions - by a very wide margin - do not use "must." This is because "must" does not appear in the Greek manuscripts of this verse.

In any case, the responsibility to walk rightly with God is only ours because God has first enabled us by His Spirit to fulfill this responsibility. But this responsibility does not determine the believer's salvation; it only reflects it.

setst777 said:
So don't use the born of God card to think you are not obligated to live and walk by that Spirit to be given eternal life or that you are guaranteed to be saved.

The OT saints were not born-again, they were not saved, until Christ's atoning work at Calvary long after they had died. So, however obedient and faithful they were in the OT, they still required the animal sacrifices that God had stipulated to cover their sins to be performed on a regular basis. It is entirely mistaken, then, to say that their obedience in OT times made them saved in the NT sense. It didn't. And so your comparison between these OT saints and NT believers is illegitimate.

setst777 said:
setst RE: When Lord Jesus addressed the church corporately, was he commanding a church building to repent, or was Jesus talking to each Christian within the corporate church to repent?

Did the Spirit threaten loss of salvation? No. He only warned of the "lampstand" of the church, not the individual believers, being removed. And the lampstand represents the public witness of the church, not the salvation of the individuals within it. See Matthew 5:14-16 which speaks of the witness of the righteous among the lost as a lamp on a stand.

setst777 said:
Revelation 3:2-5, which I also quoted previously, makes more clear for you that Jesus was not talking to a church building, but to the Christians in the Church:

Revelation 3:4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

I see you redacted verses 2 and 3. Of course, this is because they are clearly addressing the church of Sardis corporately. Only at verse 4, as I already pointed out in an earlier post, does the address turn from the church corporate to individuals within it, which is where you start your quotation.

setst777 said:
Notice that besides those who have not defiled their garments, Jesus is also calling on the others in the church to repent so they too can be counted worthy to receive white robes, and their names remain in the Book of Life.

Here you give another twist to Scripture. The promise of verse 5 is issued to "he who overcomes." Who is that, exactly? Every born-again believer. (See 1 John 4:4) Verse 5 is not a threat but a guarantee that all genuine believers will never be blotted out of the Book of Life. The verse, then, does not menace the genuine believer with the possibility of lost salvation as you seem to think. It is...unfortunate how your SAL, works-salvation doctrines have so negatively colored how you read Scripture.

setst777 said:
The implication here is that if you do not repent, then your name is blotted out from the book of life - meaning once saved does not mean always saved. You must remain faithful.

Well, since I don't look at the passage through your SAL, works-salvation doctrines, I see a very different message in the passage. I already pointed out that the Early Church had plenty of "false brethren," "tares," deceivers, false teachers, etc., within its membership, acknowledged in virtually every book of the New Testament. It is no surprise, then, that we read of the church at Ephesus and at Sardis struggling to be proper witnesses for Christ ("a little leaven leavens the whole lump," Paul wrote). In his address to the churches through John, the Spirit marks out the truly saved from those who were not, describing the genuine believers as those "who did not defile their garments," and as "overcomers," and noting their righteous efforts. To them, great promises are made, but to those who were not genuine believers, who were not overcomers, there are warnings given. I see, then, two separate groups of people addressed in these passages, not one. And so, your contention that the passages only address believers and threaten them with lost salvation falls flat, in my estimation.

aiki · May 16, 2019

setst777 said:
Jesus is not addressing believers and non-believers in the Churches, he is giving those in the churches time to repent of their laxity of faith and love, and for their bad deeds.

I disagree. As I pointed out, there are references to the unbeliever within the Church in practically every book of the NT. (Gal. 2:4; 2 Cor. 11:13; 2 Cor. 11:26; Tit. 1:10-11; 1 Tim. 6:3-5; 2 Tim. 3:1-8, 2 Peter 2, 1 John 2:19, etc.) Certainly, the behaviour the Spirit condemns is consistent with those who are not truly born-again. That the Spirit also specifically marks out from the rest of the church those who are walking rightly as born-again believers, or "overcomers," strengthens the notion that two distinctly different groups of people -saved amd unsaved - are in view in the passages.

setst777 said:
Aiki RE: But in neither instance does anything like "backsliding Christians are warned..." appear in these verses.

setst RE: The Galatians were backsliding. That is why Paul wrote the letter to the Galatians - to address their many issues.

This deflects my point rather than deals with it directly. You are using very particular words and phrases to describe Paul's doctrines concerning good works and salvation, but they are words and phrases he never uses. You want to assert things about Paul's thinking but resort to these words and phrases which don't, in my view, reflect his thinking well at all.

I know quite well why Paul wrote his various letters. I've been studying them for decades. That Paul was intending to "address their many issues" doesn't account for why your descriptions of Paul's thinking resort to words and phrases he doesn't use in relation, particularly, to good works and salvation. I think your use of these words and phrases exposes a divergence from Paul's view.

setst777 said:
Read Galatians 5.
He warns them not to be deceived, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. Paul is writing that as instruction and warning to those reading what he wrote - Christians.

As I've pointed out, Paul knew very well that there were "false brethren" within the Early Church. Consequently, he does not always confine his comments exclusively to believers in his various letters but, at times, broadens his remarks to encompass them, even sometimes calling them out specifically. Galatians 5:19-21 obviously is one of these times where his comments extended to the "tares" within the Church, specifying and clarifying for his readers those things that were "out of bounds" and that distinguished a saved person from an unsaved one.

setst777 said:
When I read it, I take it personally, just as Paul meant it to be written.

So would the non-believer hearing Paul's words read out in the church they were a part of.

setst777 said:
I am not all of the sudden thinking that anytime Paul is talking about sinning or walking in the flesh that this does not pertain to me.

"If the shoe fits..." This was as true for the non-believer within the Early Church as it is for anyone reading Paul's words today.

setst777 said:
So, relating this instruction to the Corinthians and the Galatians, Paul in no way condoned their activity, but rather condemned it and warned them that they must repent of such activity, for those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God

Paul did not write at the end of his list of the works of the flesh: "...that you born-again Galatians who do such things..." No, he wrote, "...that they (or those) who do such things..." His intended audience clearly isn't explicitly and particularly Christians, but anyone who does the things he listed. "They" (or those) is a generic pronoun, used when a much more believer-specific designation could easily have been employed.

setst777 said:
Secondly, the instruction in Galatians 6:7-8 is a valid comparison because:

• Since the Galatians are still walking in the flesh, then, if not repented of, will lead to corruption or destruction:
Gal 6:7-8 - as Paul instructed - "would not inherit the kingdom of God."
• they are still walking according to the flesh which, if unchecked, will lead to death. See also Rom 8:12-13

Notice, that the whole letter to the Galatians was to be read, not parts of it. Same as the Epistle to the Corinthians. It's all for their instruction.

Paul does not use "brother," or "brethren," or "believer," "saint," or "Galatian Christian," or even "us" or "we" to designate who he is talking about in Galatians 6:7-8. No, instead, he wrote, "For whatever a man..." And he continued to use this generic pronoun until verse 9 where he suddenly switched to "let us..." and "we." In light of this, it seems very obvious to me that Paul was not speaking particularly of born-again believers when Galatians 6:7-8 was penned. If he had wanted to make it clear he was speaking particularly of and to the Galatian believers, why didn't he use "us" and "we" in verses 7 and 8, too? Clearly, because he wasn't intending such a thing when these two verses were written. And so your idea that Paul was threatening the Galatian believers doesn't, in my view, wash at all.

setst777 said:
setst RE: How does a (generic) unbeliever sow to the Spirit???

Obviously, by responding positively to the Gospel and being saved!

setst777 said:
Pretty clear for anyone with an unbiased mind to see that Paul's instruction about reaping and sowing was directed to the Galatians as a lesson and warning

Well, of course, Paul was writing to the Galatians for their edification and instruction, but this doesn't mean he was always writing about them. See above.

setst777 said:
In context, Paul wrote Galatians 6:7-9 because the Galatians were, in fact, sowing to the flesh - they were walking in the flesh, in which case Paul warned that those who live like this will not inherit the Kingdom of God...

Galatians 5:13-26 (NIV)
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

After that, Paul warns them that those who live like that, along with a list of other sins, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I don't see Paul saying, "You are using your freedom to indulge the flesh..." or, "You are biting and devouring one another..." No, instead, Paul wrote an imperative, not an accusation, when he wrote, "...do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh..." He was offering advice, not accusing the Galatian believers. And he wrote, "If you bite and devour...", expressing a potentiality, not a reality. He was not criticizing the Galatians necessarily for something they were doing, but merely describing a possible kind of behaviour they ought to avoid. Do you see how your SAL and works-salvation lens is forcing you to read these passages in a profoundly threatening, negative way? Yikes!

setst777 said:
Now in the immediate context of Galatians 6:7-9 we can readily understand that the reaping and sowing Passage was written as instruction and warning to the Galatians within the context, because Paul is not even discussing non-believers, but rather addressed the Galatian' brothers and sisters...

You haven't succeeded in showing this - at all. See above.

setst777 said:
Can you see the context? It thought all flows together in an orderly smooth fashion. This instruction to the Galatian' brothers and sisters flows smoothly from verse 1 to verse 9.

I'm afraid it is you who is failing to see Scripture clearly. See above.

setst777 said:
Also, who did Paul have in mind when he similarly wrote about reaping in the following verses:

Romans 6:19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations.
Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Notice the comparison made:
• that shameful deeds reaped no benefits and resulted in death
• while being slaves to God reaps holiness resulting in eternal life.

Notice the similarity of Romans 6:21-22 with Galatians 5:7-9 about:

sowing to the flesh reaps destruction and

sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.

And here you demonstrate further how blind your SAL and works-salvation doctrines have made you to what is actually written. Firstly, you cherry-pick - again - a version that uses the same verbiage as the Galatians 6 passage, but of the fifty-plus English versions of the Bible that I know of, only two or three translate the verse this way. What's more, in the Greek, "reap" does not appear in the verse. Young's Literal Translation gives a nearly word-to-word rendering of the verse from the Greek:

Romans 6:21-22 (YLT)
21 what fruit, therefore, were you having then, in the things of which you are now ashamed? for the end of those is death.
22 And now, having been freed from the sin, and having become servants to God, you have your fruit--to sanctification, and the end life age-during;

So, trying to draw the parallels of meaning that you have between this passage and Galatians 6:7-8 doesn't really work.

Paul never threatens loss of salvation in the passage from Romans 6. Instead, as he does in other places, he draws a contrast between an unsaved state of affairs and a saved one. Paul described how the Roman believers used to be prior to their conversion and how they are as born-again children of God. Not once does he say that they were slipping back into their former style of living and had better watch out. He doesn't threaten them at all, in fact. Rather, he remarks on how they have begun to live as believers and encourages them with reminders of the eternal rewards of such living. I am dismayed, then, to see how you have contorted a very encouraging passage into a merely threatening one.

If you'll wait on responding, I'll get to your other posts tomorrow.

setst777 · May 16, 2019

aiki said:
I disagree.

Hi Aiki

Aiki wrote:
<<
I gave you three instances where "must" is used in relation to salvation. Why are you pretending I didn't?

setst RE:
None of the Passages you quoted say we "must" believe in Jesus to be saved. So, according to your logic, believing in Jesus is optional to be saved.

Aike RE: "...Concerning the mistaken assertion that no verse says we must believe in Jesus to be saved, see above. Where there are some few verses that do clearly indicate that we must believe in Christ to be saved..."

setst RE: "Clearly indicate" is not the same as clearly stating? I gave you Passages that clearly indicated their intended meaning, but in YOUR logic, that was not good enough. That Passage actually had to say "must."

Concerning the Churches in Revelation...

Aiki writes as follows:
<<
If the churches were not obeying God - as the Spirit indicated was the case through John - and were not rejected by God, then it follows that obedience was optional - temporarily, at least. If obedience were not optional, there would have been no room for obedience at all.
>>

setst RE: Obeying God is optional???

You can't even receive the Spirit unless you first obey God.

John 14:15-17
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever — 17 the Spirit of truth.

Acts 5:32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Think that way if you want. That is your life.

2 Timothy 2:19 (NIV)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

setst wrote:
<<
But if they didn't repent of walking in the flesh, if they did not walk in the Spirit, they would not enter the kingdom of God, just as Paul warned the Corinthians and the Galatians.
>>

Aiki Responds:
<<
Again, concerning the verses you're referring to here, Paul was not threatening Christians with a loss of salvation in them, but describing and contrasting the saved life with the unsaved life and explaining that there was more to the Christian life than merely living in the Spirit. A believer who lives (by) in the Spirit can also walk (by) in the Spirit. How this translates into a threat of lost salvation is beyond me - and the plain intent of the verse.
>>

setst RE: Go ahead and believe that way. Paul wrote to the Corinthian church as instruction for the Corinthians. If you think some verses are for unbelievers because they mention sin and warning against sin, that somehow those Passages don't pertain to the Christians who were living in sin, then that is something you will have to answer for before God.

setst wrote:
<<
Also in Revelation Lord Jesus warned the Christians in the Churches to repent or be lost.
>>

Aiki RE:
<<
No, he didn't.
>>

setst RE: No, he didn't? Amazing.

Aiki continues:
<<
As I pointed out, when speaking to individuals in the Ephesus and Sardis churches, the Spirit makes promises of eternal life not threats of lost salvation.
>>

setst RE:
Revelation 3:2-5 … 2 Wake up, and keep the things that remain, which are about to die, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If therefore you do not wake up, I will come as a thief, and you won't know what hour I will come to you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

No warning here, right?

Aiki continues:
<<
"Overcomers," as John explained in his first letter, is a term referring to the born-again believer, the person in whom God dwells:

1 John 4:4 (NKJV)
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
>>

setst RE: What do you think that verse means? Do you think it means God is guaranteeing your faith/salvation - that the Spirit is responsible?

You still don't know that you are only kept by God's power onto salvation through faith?

1 Peter 1:4 This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

You must endure in the faith to be kept by God's power onto salvation.

I look at verses of Scripture in the context of the whole counsel of Scripture. Yes, the believer has the power to overcome, because the Spirit is greater than he who is in the world, but only as the believers is faithful to walk by the Spirit that dwells in him.

Why? Because that is what Scripture teaches.

God (the Father and Son) only comes to dwell in us by His Spirit if we love Jesus and keep His commands, if we obey God first...

John 14:23
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

John 14:15-17
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever — 17 the Spirit of truth.

Acts 5:32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

God, through His Spirit, dwelling in us is greater than the world; so we have the victory, but only as we, by faith, walk by the Spirit, so that we may receive life from the Spirit.

Salvation is by God’s Grace.
Salvation is the Gift of God
Salvation is the work of God

God Gracious Gift of Salvation – the regenerative work of God –

is received by Faith (Romans 5:1-3)
is kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:4-5)
The end result of your faith is your salvation (1 Peter 1:9)

Since all of salvation and its power to save is only accessed and kept by faith, then we must remain faithful to God to remain in His saving grace...

We must, by faith, be careful to:
• live by and walk by the Spirit we receive so we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh: Gal 5:16
• live by the Spirit to fulfill the requirements of the whole law: Rom 8:3-4
• take off the old self and to put on new self so our minds are renewed: Eph 4:24-25; Col 3:9-10
• to abstain from reaping to the flesh so we may enter the Kingdom of God: 1 Cor 6:7-10; Eph 5:1-6
• to live as slaves to God by which we reap holiness leading to eternal life: Rom 6:22

We are of God and have overcome only as we are faithful to live and walk by the one who is greater in us. That is why True Christians must fear and tremble. . .

Philippians 2:12-13 (WEB)
12 So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

God, through His Spirit, dwells in those who have repented and believed in Jesus. So we must, with fear and trembling, obey God and work out our own salvation. As we do this, the Spirit works in us to will and to work for God's good pleasure.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For IF YOU live according to the flesh, YOU will die; but if by the Spirit YOU put to death the misdeeds of the body, YOU will live.

From Faith to Faith - from the beginning to the end - the righteous will live by faith.

Romans 1 (WEB) Bolding mine…
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, for it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes; for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.”

setst wrote:
<<
God accepts nothing less from a born again Christian then to walk by the Spirit he causes to dwell in you by faith - to live righteous and holy lives before Him.

Yes, God will allow repentance, and God is patient, however, to those who are given much, much is required...
>>

Aiki RE:
<<
You didn't answer my question or address my point. As you often do, you talked past my comments here. I'll ask you again: Where is the line, exactly, that one crosses from a saved state to an unsaved state? Knowing where such a line is would be absolutely vital to walking rightly with God, it seems to me...
>>

setst RE: God, who discerns the hearts and intentions of all men will judge righteously.

Hebrews 3:12-14 (NIV)
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

setst wrote:
<<
Both the OT believers and NT believers are saved by an obedient faith. There is no difference there.
>>

Aiki replies:
<<
No, they were saved (or justified in the case of OT saints) by faith alone. Obedience (though, not constant, perfect obedience) was the inevitable consequence of that faith.
>>

setst RE: No??? You are answering most of these questions without any Spiritual discernment. You still don't know the most primary element of salvation - what faith is.

Obedience comes from Faith - but its not inevitable; You can fall away.

There is no such word as inevitable anything in Scripture.

I quoted Scriptures many times for you showing this to be the case.

A genuine faith in God is demonstrated by obedience - OT or NT - but we can fall away.

"Hebrews 11:4-12" lists some of these OT believers and shows that their faith was demonstrated by obedience.

"James 2:14-26" also teaches this very clearly, and even uses Abraham as his example.

"Faith without deeds is dead."

I know you don't have this kind of faith, otherwise you would understand these things, and you would not be saying "obedience is optional"....

"Aiki wrote: <<If the churches were not obeying God - as the Spirit indicated was the case through John - and were not rejected by God, then it follows that obedience was optional...>>"

setst RE: There is no time in a believer's life where obedience is ever optional. God accepts nothing less than faithful obedience with all your heart, mind, body and soul - dead to sin and a new life in Christ (Rm 6).

Faith without obedience is DEAD.

As it is, I have been kindly sending messages to your replies, quoting Scriptures showing that faith must be demonstrated by your obedience, that obedience comes from faith, to be the kind of faith God accepts -

By faith I am justified Rm 5:1
By faith I receive His Spirit - (at least six Passages teach this)
By faith I receive the power of God onto salvation Rm 1:16-17
By faith I access God's saving grace Rm 5:1-2
By faith I am kept by God's Power until the end 1 Peter 1:4-5
The end result of my faith is my salvation 1 Peter 1:9

"From faith to faith, the righteous will live by faith." Rm 1:16-17

True Christians fear and tremble because God's great salvation is only accessed and kept by our faithfulness to Him.

This is the most basic fundamentals of salvation. Instead you are quoting Scriptures out of context and playing games with God's Word saying faithful obedience is optional, and the Spirit does it all. With that attitude, no wonder many Christians today are living in sin - a dead faith, no responsibility.

sets RE: Jesus is not addressing believers and non-believers in the Churches, he is giving those in the churches time to repent of their laxity of faith and love, and for their bad deeds.

Aiki RE: I disagree. As I pointed out, there are references to the unbeliever within the Church in practically every book of the NT. (Gal. 2:4; 2 Cor. 11:13; 2 Cor. 11:26; Tit. 1:10-11; 1 Tim. 6:3-5; 2 Tim. 3:1-8, 2 Peter 2, 1 John 2:19, etc.)

setst RE: You disagree??? Jesus was not calling them to repentance????
I responded many of those Scriptures. Paul never identifies those "others" with the Christians whom Paul is addressing.

setst wrote: He warns them not to be deceived, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. Paul is writing that as instruction and warning to those reading what he wrote - Christians.

Aiki replied: As I've pointed out, Paul knew very well that there were "false brethren" within the Early Church.

setst RE: When Paul spoke about false brethren, he never included them with those he was writing to, but clearly identified them.

Lets summarize so far:

So, according to YOU:

Obedient faith is "optional."
Scriptural commands for US to obey God to receive the Spirit are ignored - thus denying the Spirit for yourself.
The commands of Christ to take up your cross and following Jesus to be saved are thrown out, even though Jesus commanded it.
You deny that we have to live a life worthy of salvation to be saved. [Only those who are worthy - faithfully following God's commands - inherit Life according to God.]
All those Passages where Christians are commanded to be obedient slaves to God, to die to sin and live for Christ, do not mean that we "must" be obedient slaves, or die to sin, because the word "must" was not used.
A Christian can fall into sin and live in sin but never be lost.
All the warnings in Scripture about falling into sin, walking in the flesh, and falling away were not meant for the Christians he was writing to that were having the sin issues; but rather, he was talking about unbelievers.
All the warnings about reaping to the flesh or walking in the flesh that Paul warned about, warning the reader 'not to be deceived' was just meant for the unbelievers.
All the Passages clearly commanding us to walk by the Spirit, for YOU to reap to please the Spirit to receive life, are not meant for Christians, but instead the Spirit to follow.
The Passages showing that we true believers must "be afraid!" and to "fear and tremble" because if we do not remain faithful we could be cut off are all re-interpreted by you from the clear and obvious meaning - they don't apply according to you.
All those Passages about being careful not to be deceived by sin, or becoming hardened by sins deceitfulness are completely ignored.
You reinterpret all the Scriptures commanding YOU to remain faithful and instead place that responsibility on the Spirit - thus cleansing your hands of any responsibility for your faithfulness to God - totally against the clear teaching and command to Believers by Scripture - OT and NT.
You throw in words like "inevitable," "enable," and "optional" with loaded meanings that are alien to the Scriptures, as if you now have more authority than Scripture.
You like to take verses out of context and then create your own meaning outside the context of Scriptural teaching.
You claim that expressing obedient faith to the Lord is "works" which clearly dishonors God's commands to Christians to remain faithful to the end and is contrary to the Gospel.

In all due respect, you have no Spiritual discernment, fear or understanding of the things of God. The reason being: Your faith is dead by your own admission by excuses such as: 'For Christians obedience is optional,' and 'not something we must do,' and the 'Spirit does it for you.'

Jude 1 (NIV) 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny our only Sovereign and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Jesus is LORD of your life or He is not part of your life at all - Only ONE Master.

Unfortunately, untold millions of ‘Christians’ are being misled by a heresy that inadvertently encourages a dead faith and a license for sin - the end result being eternal death.

aiki · May 17, 2019

setst777 said:
Look at the context from the beginning where Paul sets this concept in place...

Romans 8 (NIV)
8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in US, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Notice, from the very beginning Paul is referring the "US" the ones who receive the Spirit from Jesus Christ to give us life vs 1-2. Such have the indwelling Spirit, but the condition is that the Spirit filled believer still has to live according to the Spirit - not the flesh in verse 4...

verse 4... the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in US, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Do you see the condition given?

I don't see that Paul gave a condition but simply explained that the atoning work of Christ at Calvary opened the way for the righteous requirement of the law to be fulfilled in those who, because they are indwelt by the Spirit (verse 9), do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. "Who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" is not a condition for being saved but a description of the saved.

You have not given me time to reply to all your other posts but have posted already to my latest replies, and so in order to keep abreast of your responses, I will leave off my reply to your older posts and address your most recent one.

BCsenior · May 17, 2019

setst777 said:
Unfortunately, untold millions of ‘Christians’ are being misled by a heresy that inadvertently encourages a dead faith and a license for sin - the end result being eternal death.

Yes ... so, are you done trying to teach him ... only the Holy Spirit can reveal spiritual Truth.
If He won't or cannot, maybe his soil is not ready to accept the seed(s).

aiki · May 17, 2019

setst777 said:
setst RE:
None of the Passages you quoted say we "must" believe in Jesus to be saved. So, according to your logic, believing in Jesus is optional to be saved.

Yes, they do.

setst777 said:
Aiki writes as follows:
<<
If the churches were not obeying God - as the Spirit indicated was the case through John - and were not rejected by God, then it follows that obedience was optional - temporarily, at least. If obedience were not optional, there would have been no room for obedience at all.
>>

setst RE: Obeying God is optional???

You can't even receive the Spirit unless you first obey God.

We've already gone over this. Yes, one must believe the Gospel in order to be saved, just as God says one must. But the fact that obedience is optional (again, only to a point) is not to say that obedience to God can be ignored altogether.

setst777 said:
John 14:15-17
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever — 17 the Spirit of truth.

If you think the beginning of the verse that you've highlighted is the condition for the last part of the verse that you also highlighted, you've badly misunderstood Jesus' words. Jesus did not make an If-Then statement in the verse but an If-And one. He did not say that if his disciples loved him and kept his commands, that then he would send the Spirit. Their keeping of his commands was not the condition for the sending of the Spirit. No, the sending of the Spirit was in addition to his command to them to obey him, signified by the use of the word "and."

setst777 said:
Acts 5:32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Again, because disobedience to God in some respects is possible for the believer, it doesn't follow that one can forsake obedience to Him permanently and entirely and be a genuinely born-again believer.

setst777 said:
2 Timothy 2:19 (NIV)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

I already told you that the NIV's rendering of this verse using the word "must" is faulty and why.

setst777 said:
Paul wrote to the Corinthian church as instruction for the Corinthians.

Obviously.

setst777 said:
If you think some verses are for unbelievers because they mention sin and warning against sin, that somehow those Passages don't pertain to the Christians who were living in sin, then that is something you will have to answer for before God.

As I already pointed out, Paul's letters to the various churches were for them but not necessarily always about them. This isn't that hard to understand...

setst777 said:
Also in Revelation Lord Jesus warned the Christians in the Churches to repent or be lost.
>>

Aiki RE:
<<
No, he didn't.
>>

setst RE: No, he didn't? Amazing.

No, as I explained, the warnings were given to churches corporately, not individual Christians, and not about a loss of salvation but about the loss of an effective public witness. To individual believers, there are only wonderful promises that are made. What is amazing is how your SAL, works-salvation doctrines have blinded you to these things.

setst777 said:
setst RE:
Revelation 3:2-5 … 2 Wake up, and keep the things that remain, which are about to die, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If therefore you do not wake up, I will come as a thief, and you won't know what hour I will come to you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

No warning here, right?

See above. The Spirit speaks in warning, not to any particular individual, but to the church at Sardis corporately. To the saved individuals who are described in the passage, only promises are made.

setst777 said:
Aiki continues:
<<
"Overcomers," as John explained in his first letter, is a term referring to the born-again believer, the person in whom God dwells:

1 John 4:4 (NKJV)
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
>>

setst RE: What do you think that verse means? Do you think it means God is guaranteeing your faith/salvation - that the Spirit is responsible?

What do I think the verse means? It means what is says. The "little children" to whom John wrote were overcomers, not because of what they did, but because of who was within them, namely, God. I already made this point in an earlier post which, clearly, you are not taking the time to read carefully and understand.

setst777 said:
You still don't know that you are only kept by God's power onto salvation through faith?

??? Are you asking me a question or telling me what I believe? It's hard to tell here...

Understand that God gives us everything that enables us to be saved - including the faith to believe. God saves us, we don't save ourselves. He draws us (John 6:44), He gives us faith (Romans 12:3), He convicts us (John 16:8), He even gives us "repentance to the acknowledging of the truth" (2 Timothy 2:25). It is not "up to us," then, to be saved by our obedient faith, but to simply receive and respond to the saving work God has done in us. And as Paul wrote to the Colossians, in the same way we received Christ, we are to "walk in him." We received our salvation from God and we continue to receive from Him all that we are as His children. Our life in Him is all of Him. Until you realize this, you will continue to be mired in fear and self-effort.

setst777 said:
1 Peter 1:4 This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

You must endure in the faith to be kept by God's power onto salvation.

Those who endure are enabled to do so because of God's power, not their self-effort. And since His power never fails, it never weakens or falters, their ability to endure never fails, either.

setst777 said:
I look at verses of Scripture in the context of the whole counsel of Scripture. Yes, the believer has the power to overcome, because the Spirit is greater than he who is in the world, but only as the believers is faithful to walk by the Spirit that dwells in him.

You don't see how you're contradicting yourself here, do you? You acknowledge that the believer's power to overcome originates with God but then you put the onus for the believer's walk with God squarely upon the believer's capacity to be faithful. There is no faithful believer without God; there is no faithfulness but by the giving of that faithfulness to the believer by God. As I have pointed out before, a believer only works out what God has first worked in. (Philippians 2:13) So, if a believer is faithful to the end, it is only because God has enabled the believer so to be.

setst777 said:
God (the Father and Son) only comes to dwell in us by His Spirit if we love Jesus and keep His commands, if we obey God first...

Wrong. No man can "obey God first." Those who are "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1) cannot move toward God without Him first moving toward them. The unsaved man is an enemy of God and alienated from Him (Colossians 1:21), blinded and deafened to God's truth by the devil, and does not have it within himself apart from God to want a relationship with Him. You have, then, put the responsibility for initiating salvation in the wrong person entirely.

John 6:44 (NKJV)
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

setst777 said:
John 14:23
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

This verse does not say, "If anyone loves me and obeys my teaching, then my Father will love them..." No man loves God until God has first moved in love toward him and showed him how much he is loved.

1 John 4:16-19 (NKJV)
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19 We love Him because He first loved us.

All Jesus points out in John 14:23 is the correspondence between love and obedience. He does not assert an If-Then equation.

setst777 said:
God Gracious Gift of Salvation – the regenerative work of God –

is received by Faith (Romans 5:1-3)

is kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:4-5)

The end result of your faith is your salvation (1 Peter 1:9)

Since all of salvation and its power to save is only accessed and kept by faith, then we must remain faithful to God to remain in His saving grace...

And since our faith in Christ is given to us by God, it doesn't rest upon us to save ourselves by our own exercise of our own faith. Faithfulness, we are told by Paul, is a fruit, not of our self-effort, but of the Spirit. (Galatians 5:22).

setst777 said:
We are of God and have overcome only as we are faithful to live and walk by the one who is greater in us. That is why True Christians must fear and tremble. . .

This is not what the apostle John wrote. He did not say believers are overcomers because of what they do but only because of who dwells within them. (1 John 4:4) I've already made this point to you a couple of times...

Believers "fear and tremble" in reverent awe of the great God who has saved them, not because it is all on them to remain in relationship with God. As Paul pointed out, God works into each of His children both the ability and the desire to do His will. (Philippians 2:13) A believer can be supremely confident, then, that his salvation is secure in God's matchless power to transform him, that what God has begun in him He will finish.

Philippians 1:6 (NKJV)
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

setst777 said:
God, through His Spirit, dwells in those who have repented and believed in Jesus. So we must, with fear and trembling, obey God and work out our own salvation. As we do this, the Spirit works in us to will and to work for God's good pleasure.

This is exactly backwards. Paul is very clear that a Christian works out only what God has first worked in. This is what the word "For" signifies at the beginning of Philippians 2:13. It signals that what is stated after it is the reason for what was stated before it. If I say, "The apples have shriveled and rotted," and then say, "For they had sat all day in the hot sun," I am using "for" to introduce an explanation for the state of the apples. This is exactly how Paul uses "for" in Philippians 2:13. The Christian works out their salvation because God has worked into them the desire and the ability to do so. Do you see how your doctrines are causing you to misread Scripture?

aiki · May 17, 2019

setst777 said:
Aiki RE:
<<
You didn't answer my question or address my point. As you often do, you talked past my comments here. I'll ask you again: Where is the line, exactly, that one crosses from a saved state to an unsaved state? Knowing where such a line is would be absolutely vital to walking rightly with God, it seems to me...
>>

setst RE: God, who discerns the hearts and intentions of all men will judge righteously.

In other words, there is no line that one can cross from a saved state to an unsaved one.

setst777 said:
setst RE: No??? You are answering most of these questions without any Spiritual discernment. You still don't know the most primary element of salvation - what faith is.

Actually, I seem to have a much better handle on what faith is than you do...

setst777 said:
Obedience comes from Faith - but its not inevitable; You can fall away.

I disagree. I've explained why in earlier posts.

setst777 said:
There is no such word as inevitable anything in Scripture.

I quoted Scriptures many times for you showing this to be the case.

No, you haven't. As I've shown you over and over. You misquote, or add to, or twist Scripture to say what you want it to say, but I've pointed out now many times how in each case you're misreading Scripture.

setst777 said:
"Faith without deeds is dead."

I know you don't have this kind of faith, otherwise you would understand these things, and you would not be saying "obedience is optional"....

*Sigh* See above.

setst777 said:
"Aiki wrote: <<If the churches were not obeying God - as the Spirit indicated was the case through John - and were not rejected by God, then it follows that obedience was optional...>>"

setst RE: There is no time in a believer's life where obedience is ever optional.

There is no time at which a believer's disobedience is condoned by God, but this doesn't mean the believer can't be disobedient and still be a child of God. See 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, and 11.

setst777 said:
True Christians fear and tremble because God's great salvation is only accessed and kept by our faithfulness to Him.

This is the most basic fundamentals of salvation.

And it is stuff like this that shows me how little you actually understand of basic Christianity. See above.

setst777 said:
sets RE: Jesus is not addressing believers and non-believers in the Churches, he is giving those in the churches time to repent of their laxity of faith and love, and for their bad deeds.

Aiki RE: I disagree. As I pointed out, there are references to the unbeliever within the Church in practically every book of the NT. (Gal. 2:4; 2 Cor. 11:13; 2 Cor. 11:26; Tit. 1:10-11; 1 Tim. 6:3-5; 2 Tim. 3:1-8, 2 Peter 2, 1 John 2:19, etc.)

setst RE: You disagree??? Jesus was not calling them to repentance????

No, I disagree with your assertion that Jesus was not addressing both believers and unbelievers in the churches. If you'd just read my posts more carefully, you wouldn't come to these skewed conclusions about my views.

setst777 said:
So, according to YOU:

Obedient faith is "optional."

But this does not mean disobedience is condoned or approved of by God. See above.

setst777 said:
Scriptural commands for US to obey God to receive the Spirit are ignored - thus denying the Spirit for yourself.

Strawman.

setst777 said:
The commands of Christ to take up your cross and following Jesus to be saved are thrown out, even though Jesus commanded it.

Jesus never said that denying one's self and taking up one's cross secured salvation. This is your contortion of his words born of your SAL, works-salvation presuppositions. Jesus said only that following him, that is, living according to his example, required sacrificial behaviour.

setst777 said:
You deny that we have to live a life worthy of salvation to be saved.

Strawman. Of course, born-again believers ought to live worthy of Christ's sacrifice for them. But their salvation does not depend upon whether they do or not. Salvation is not a gift, as the Bible says it is, if it must ultimately be earned by "worthy" living.

setst777 said:
All those Passages where Christians are commanded to be obedient slaves to God, to die to sin and live for Christ, do not mean that we "must" be obedient slaves, or die to sin, because the word "must" was not used.

The word "must" is never used but "will" and "ought" certainly are. Why is this the case if what was really meant was "must"? Why use words of lesser force to express meaning of greater force? Doesn't make sense, does it? And that's because "must" goes beyond what Scripture itself intends to communicate. We ought to, we should, obey God and we will when His Spirit is at work within us, but while we are obligated as God's children to live holy, obedient lives, doing so is not vital, it is not absolutely necessary - as the word "must" indicates - to being one of God's children. The Good Shepherd knows his sheep are prone to wandering, that they can be willful and disobedient. But when they do wander, he doesn't cast them aside but goes out to find them and bring them back to the fold.

setst777 said:
A Christian can fall into sin and live in sin but never be lost.

As I already pointed out a couple of times now at least, no genuine child of God can live comfortably and persistently in sin. They will succumb to temptation but they will not be content to live under the power of sin. Those who claim to be saved but who live comfortably and persistently in sin reveal in doing so that they were never truly saved.

setst777 said:
All the warnings in Scripture about falling into sin, walking in the flesh, and falling away were not meant for the Christians he was writing to that were having the sin issues; but rather, he was talking about unbelievers.

Oh, no, many of the warnings against falling into sin in Scripture are for the believer. There is just no grounds, I believe, for expanding those warnings to entail a loss of salvation. And at times the warnings are for the lost, for the false convert with the Church in particular, living among the saved but not actually truly born-again.

setst777 said:
The Passages showing that we true believers must "be afraid!" and to "fear and tremble" because if we do not remain faithful we could be cut off are all re-interpreted by you from the clear and obvious meaning - they don't apply according to you.

THis is called "Begging the Question." You are assuming your premises and conclusion without having first established their veracity. It is by no means proved that the verses in question actually teach a loss of salvation and that what "fear" they urge is the craven fear of one dreading eternal hell. As far as I'm concerned, you've assumed - mistakenly - that your interpretation of them is "clear and obvious." The verses themselves don't actually say what you think they do.

setst777 said:
All those Passages about being careful not to be deceived by sin, or becoming hardened by sins deceitfulness are completely ignored.

Strawman.

setst777 said:
You reinterpret all the Scriptures commanding YOU to remain faithful and instead place that responsibility on the Spirit - thus cleansing your hands of any responsibility for your faithfulness to God - totally against the clear teaching and command to Believers by Scripture - OT and NT.

And...another Strawman.

setst777 said:
You throw in words like "inevitable," "enable," and "optional" with loaded meanings that are alien to the Scriptures, as if you now have more authority than Scripture.

Strawman again.

setst777 said:
You claim that expressing obedient faith to the Lord is "works" which clearly dishonors God's commands to Christians to remain faithful to the end and is contrary to the Gospel.

Also, Strawman. I have never denied that a person must exercise faith in Christ in order to be saved. But I have said that anything beyond this faith, this exercise of trust, that is a good work of some kind, is explicitly and repeatedly ruled out as necessary to salvation by Scripture. What dishonors God is attempting to deny this.

setst777 said:
In all due respect, you have no Spiritual discernment, fear or understanding of the things of God.

*Sigh* It always comes down to ad hominem with you guys. My reply is this: Your saying so doesn't make it so.

setst777 said:
Jesus is LORD of your life or He is not part of your life at all - Only ONE Master.

You haven't gone far enough. Jesus isn't merely the Lord of your life but the very Source of your life itself (Philippians 1:21; Colossians 3:4; John 15:5; Acts 17:28). When this sinks in sufficiently for you to understand it, you will forsake your self-effort because you will see it for the corrupt and impotent thing it really is.

setst777 · May 17, 2019

BCsenior said:
Yes ... so, are you done trying to teach him ... only the Holy Spirit can reveal spiritual Truth.
If He won't or cannot, maybe his soil is not ready to accept the seed(s).

Hi BCsenior,

Your question me as follows:
<<
... so, are you done trying to teach him ... only the Holy Spirit can reveal spiritual Truth.
If He won't or cannot, maybe his soil is not ready to accept the seed(s).
>>

setst RE: Yes, Brother, your words are wise.

The Holy Spirit would reveal the Truth to him, but he is not willing. He chooses to resist the Spirit and the Word.

If a person chooses to remain blind, there is nothing I can do to help them.

His soil? ... What soil? I think its all bedrock.

Blessings and Love

aiki · May 17, 2019

It's...revealing how that, when you guys can't make others come 'round to your perspective, you start with the dismissiveness and personal attacks. Very revealing.

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