Fishiness in the Resurrection of Jesus

cloudyday2

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First, Jesus was absolutely not resuscitated*

He was dead and buried. But that aside, does it matter in your view that while such as Lazarus might have been raised, the Resurrection of Jesus--in a glorified body--was about EVERYONEs future?
__________
*come to, revive (Merriam-Webster)
Sorry for the confusion. Somebody earlier in the thread seemed to be using "resuscitate" as a shorthand for "raise from the dead", so I have been using that shorthand too.

There are lots of people who were raised from the dead in the Bible, so why do we focus on the Empty Tomb as some sort of endorsement of Jesus? Why don't we focus on the Ascension, because that is the key to the Resurrection. The Jews who believed in the Resurrection expected God to raise everybody from the dead for a judgment to see who would enter the Kingdom of Heaven (or something). If Jesus had been raised from the dead without ascending to heaven, then it wouldn't have qualified as the First Fruits of the General Resurrection.

The Ascension lacks emphasis in the gospels, and that seems fishy.
 
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Albion

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Sorry for the confusion. Somebody earlier in the thread seemed to be using "resuscitate" as a shorthand for "raise from the dead", so I have been using that shorthand too.
Yes, I had that feeling.

There are lots of people who were raised from the dead in the Bible, so why do we focus on the Empty Tomb as some sort of endorsement of Jesus?
Because--according to the Bible--this proves/shows/verifies that this will be what awaits all of us--eternal life as ourselves. No other individual (Lazarus, for instance) mentioned in scripture meets that profile.
 
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timothyu

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Why would it be "for nothing" if it was something He desired to do? Is your life only about "me me me and what I want"?
You took my point backwards.. but why would Jesus raise Himself after doing only the will of the Father all that time. Jesus still sits at the right hand of the Father not replacing Him but His authority is as King over the Kingdom.
 
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timothyu

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The Ascension lacks emphasis in the gospels, and that seems fishy.
Good points. It's good to think. How about man never goes to the Father but instead the Kingdom comes to us from out of Heaven. The Ascension has no relationship to man. It only applied to the King doing not His will, but the will of the Father. We are only resurrected to the Kingdom.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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So why is there so little information and such contradictory information in the gospels about the 40 days after Jesus was raised but before Jesus ascended? Some information suggests that Jesus appeared sporadically. Other information suggests that Jesus spent enough time with his disciples to prepare them to start the Church. The gospel of Mark might have ended with the empty tomb. It is all fishy to me.
That's because you do not know the Scripture nor do you know the power of God.

There is no contradictory Scripture.

Normally when God raised people from the dead it did not indicate holiness in that person. Instead the miracle indicated holiness in the person who PRAYED. For example, when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead he became more famous as a holy man.
Lazarus was holy.
So was the little girl who Jesus said was asleep (yes, dead).

When God raises us (Ekklesia, born again from heaven by the Father's Will) ,
from the grave,

we will be holy also. No desire to become "famous".
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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It seems that you might have missed the point I have been trying to make in this thread. Resurrection is not just bring somebody back from the dead, AND resurrection is not just bringing part of the Trinity back from the dead. Resurrection is bring somebody back from the dead to be judged and then hopefully to become a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven. The Ascension is what makes the Resurrection, but the Ascension seems to be an afterthought in the gospels ("and Jesus lived happily ever after sitting at the right hand of the Father ... the end"). That is very fishy.
There appears to be no point to this.

The Ascension was planned before anything on earth or in heaven was created.

(not an afterthought, no, not at all)
 
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The Righterzpen

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Resurrection is bring somebody back from the dead to be judged and then hopefully to become a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven.

What makes you think this statement is true or accurate?

The Ascension is what makes the Resurrection, but the Ascension seems to be an afterthought in the gospels ("and Jesus lived happily ever after sitting at the right hand of the Father ... the end"). That is very fishy.

And if the ascension is fishy to you; than you missed the whole point of the resurrection. And that is what I have been pointing out to you. Jesus Christ is profoundly different than any other human who ever lived.
 
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The Righterzpen

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You took my point backwards.. but why would Jesus raise Himself after doing only the will of the Father all that time. Jesus still sits at the right hand of the Father not replacing Him but His authority is as King over the Kingdom.

Why was Jesus given the command of the Father to be able to do so? You are aware that the 3 persons of the Trinity as they actually stand in eternity; are equal in status, power, purpose, intent. They are all omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal and immortal. So if one can raise the dead, why can't another, why can't Christ raise Himself? By definition of what God is; that is possible.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Why was Jesus given the command of the Father to be able to do so? You are aware that the 3 persons of the Trinity as they actually stand in eternity; are equal in status, power, purpose, intent. They are all omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal and immortal. So if one can raise the dead, why can't another, why can't Christ raise Himself? By definition of what God is; that is possible.
Possible, but not Perfect Righteous or something, if Jesus were not relying on the Father. If Jesus did anything of Himself, His example all through Scripture and all through history would be broken.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Possible, but not Perfect Righteous or something, if Jesus were not relying on the Father. If Jesus did anything of Himself, His example all through Scripture and all through history would be broken.

I agree with you as what you say pertains to Jesus existing in human flesh; now do you know why he did nothing of himself while on earth? Why he relied on the Father while on earth? As the 2nd person of the Trinity; He technically didn't have to, that's if you believe God is one God.
 
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ewq1938

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@ewq1938 , @The Righterzpen , doesn't it seem odd that some such as Paul seemed to argue that the resuscitation of Jesus was an endorsement of his messianic claims and teachings while the resuscitation of Lazarus was not an endorsement of Lazarus? Up until the resuscitation of Jesus the people who die and rise were just lucky recipients of God's grace, but then with Jesus it became an endorsement of his character. Isn't that fishy?


No.

Jesus was the first to be resurrected to immortality. His body was changed into immortal which had never happened before.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I agree with you as what you say pertains to Jesus existing in human flesh; now do you know why he did nothing of himself while on earth? Why he relied on the Father while on earth? As the 2nd person of the Trinity; He technically didn't have to, that's if you believe God is one God.
Remember that all through all Scripture, for thousands of years,
and in line with all that Yahuweh showed the Jews, and all before them,
Yahuweh is echad.
Yahushua is echad.
and in the New Testament (and some of Psalms even)
(see "echad" in blue letter bible perhaps)
all Ekklesia (born again ones) are echad WITH Yahushua and with the Father,
just as they are echad.

Yahushua WILLINGLY SUBMITTED .....

"technically" as you put it, He did not "HAVE TO", yet willingly and for the joy set before Him, He DID !

and HE IS OUR EXAMPLE TO FOLLOW, to DO as HE DOES/ DID/.
 
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cloudyday2

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No.

Jesus was the first to be resurrected to immortality. His body was changed into immortal which had never happened before.
That's a good point. Lazarus was raised from the dead into the same body, but Jesus could walk through wall and change his appearance to be unrecognizable while still eating a fish dinner.

That leads to another question though: why the Empty Tomb? If the new body of Jesus was a "resurrection body" then why can't the old Earthly body rest in the tomb? There are people who die violent deaths in explosions leaving no remains for loved ones to bury. The Empty Tomb suggests that the physical body must be intact, and this is probably why some denominations prohibited cremation of the deceased.

It would have been better to allow the body of Jesus to tossed in the garbage dump (as apparently happened to crucifixion victims in most cases). Then when Jesus appeared among his disciples to share a fish dinner it would have decisively proven that the old Earthly body can be blown to smithereens in a car bomb or cremated or whatever. God can still resurrect the person when the time comes. The Empty Tomb story makes it seem that the Earthly body must be intact so that it can be transmuted into the "resurrection body".
 
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timothyu

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why can't Christ raise Himself? By definition of what God is; that is possible.
Because that would have defeated the purpose of living a life following the will of the Father and not His own, like it or nor His own words.
 
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ewq1938

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That's a good point. Lazarus was raised from the dead into the same body, but Jesus could walk through wall and change his appearance to be unrecognizable while still eating a fish dinner.

That leads to another question though: why the Empty Tomb? If the new body of Jesus was a "resurrection body" then why can't the old Earthly body rest in the tomb?

Because his old body was changed into an immortal body. The same thing happens to the living at the second coming. They will not die, but will have their bodies changed into immortals.


It would have been better to allow the body of Jesus to tossed in the garbage dump (as apparently happened to crucifixion victims in most cases).

I don't agree with this line of thinking. His old body was to be raised after 3 days. If it was thrown into the garbage the prophecies would have never been fulfilled.
 
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Because that would have defeated the purpose of living a life following the will of the Father and not His own, like it or nor His own words.

How well do you understand the atonement and what Jesus did / what happened to Him? (And I'm not just talking physically.)

It's a whole different ballgame when He rises from the dead, as Ephesians 1:19-23 explains. Christ began to reign as King upon the resurrection.

All three "members" of the Trinity always had the same eternal purpose in action. The Father's will was no different than the will of the Divine nature of the Son. What Jesus contended with in his human will, was the frailty of being human; as well as the knowledge he had of what was going to happen to Him/him. This is why he says "Not my will, but Yours be done."

Now imagine living your entire life in perfect communion with both Father and Spirit to the point the "3 days and 3 nights" in the heart of the earth commences. (That started Tuesday night after sundown and ended upon Jesus's death when he said "It is finished".)

So, what's happening to Jesus in those 3 days and 3 nights, is that he is being severed from the other 2 persons of the Trinity. This is why he says: "My God, why have You forsaken me?" That wasn't just a statement thrown out there for what ever benefit we might get as readers 2000 years later - that was a real experience to him.

The sinner who will endure the lake of fire will do so outside of God's presence. This is why this happened to Jesus. In order to pay the penalty for sin, he had to be forsaken by the Spirit and Father.

So he gets further and further into this process and we read that his emotional distress increases exponentially. By the time we get to Gethsemane; Jesus is a mess. He's actually nigh on psychosis from lack of sleep and emotional distress. Jeremiah 25 explains to us that the wrath of God causes the nations to go mad. So Jesus is approaching a psychiatric crisis tipping point.

Then what happens to him?

He's visited by an angel. Now the English translation says this angel "strengthens" him. The Greek though means "show of strength before (or against)". Go back to Exodus. What angel passed through the land at midnight on the Passover? The angel of death!

So what does the angel of death do to Jesus? He removes the breath of life (which makes humans "living souls") and consigns Jesus's soul to Sheol. This is where Jesus "preaches to the captives in prison". Note though, this does not kill Jesus. Why not? Because he possesses a Divine nature. If Jesus was not God incarnate, he would have died once confronted by this angel.

So note how Jesus acts post the angel visit. There's no more pleading, no more crying, no more asking for another way. He's still obviously intellectually and morally intact. And Jesus goes through the rest of the trial and the crucifixion pretty much emotionless.

Jesus makes a statement in Matthew 24, that unless the "great tribulation" was shortened; no flesh would be saved. When was "flesh saved"? That had to do with events related to the cross. His emotional ordeal ("great tribulation" of the soul of God incarnate) was "shortened" by consigning his soul to Sheol. So the angel of death was a mercy to us particularly.

We get to the end of the crucifixion. Jesus "knowing all was accomplished" says "I thirst." Someone gives him vinegar and hyssop (which is actually a primitive sedative) He "squawks" something incomprehensible to the people hearing him. The Holy Ghost "steps in" to "interpret" to us what was actually said in the penning of the Scripture and we get "into your hands I commend my spirit" and "it is finished". Which one he said first? I'm not sure we can figure that out from the Scripture.

Jesus dies.

The curtain in the temple is torn from top to bottom. This symbolizes the renting of the Divine nature from the human nature and this is actually what kills him.

Spirit and soul ascend into heaven, body goes into grave. Along with Jesus goes all those who were elect (those atoned for) on the old testament side of the cross. They ascend strait to the 3rd heaven. Jesus begins opening the scrolls. Body rests on the Sabbath.

Come Sunday morning; human spirit and soul plus Divine nature are all "reassembled" back into this body an He rises from the dead. He comes out of the tomb essentially in the same body that went into the tomb. (Obviously all healed up - and no one seems to recognize him.)

So, did the Father raise Jesus's body, the Holy Ghost, Did Jesus raise his own body? Now He's elevated back to eternal equality with the Father and does it really "matter" in that sense who raised the flesh?
 
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cloudyday2

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I don't agree with this line of thinking. His old body was to be raised after 3 days. If it was thrown into the garbage the prophecies would have never been fulfilled.
No, I think it would have been even more impressive if God had created a resurrection body for Jesus in spite of the complete destruction of his Earthly body. This would have been comforting to the loved ones of people whose bodies are completely destroyed in explosions or through cremation.
 
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