3 People Groups Going into the Lake of Fire

aiki · May 7, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Did you not read the scripture he presented? Would you like to discuss them, prove them wrong, or just stick with empty accusations that never really gets down to scripture?

Read my last post. It not only challenges the OP but explains why.

Kenny'sID · May 7, 2019

aiki said:
Read my last post. It not only challenges the OP but explains why.

Is that the post I quoted? If so, I did read it. If not, please direct me to the post.

Kenny'sID · May 7, 2019

aiki said:
How do you know what sorts of cowards are in view in the passage from Revelations 21:8? In the Greek, the word you render "cowardly" (deilos) is actually a term broader in its meaning, including "fearful" or "timid" and, by implication, "faithless." The Jamieson, Fawcett and Brown Bible Commentary makes a very excellent observation about this term:

OK, I found it.

I see absolutely no implication at all "coward" means lack of faith. Seriously, how do the terms "timid/fearful" do as you claim, and imply "cowardly" means "faithless"?

frogoon234 · May 7, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
I not measuring your character, I'm trying to find out where you got that very false idea from.

Not only not necessarily unsaved but definitely unsaved as I've always read it.

I'll give benefit of the doubt for the moment, and so there is no confusion, please give exact verse numbers for those three passages so I can read them in context, and see if what you are seeing is true or false. Thanks

I don't feel your eternal salvation from suffering is dependent on you accepting OSAS. I do however feel the many forum users on here who believe OSAS our providing plenty of scriptural evidence. Suffering is suffering. If you argued that if i deviate from the narrow path as a christian that i might become homeless or that i might go to prison for a time, i would absolutely agree with that. However, given Jesus cares about his flock, there are plenty of practical solutions that Jesus can do to keep his flock from losing their salvation. I believe Jesus can be extremely practical from time to time. Christians serve the living God not some statue in some random temple.

Have a great week!

frogoon234 · May 7, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
OK, I found it.

I see absolutely no implication at all "coward" means lack of faith. Seriously, how do the terms "timid/fearful" do as you claim, and imply "cowardly" means "faithless"?

Jesus was resurrected from the dead. Every christian knows that. Why would the mature christian fear death to such a great degree if he/she knows Jesus was resurrected from the dead. If i die i can trust my wife can remarry. But the reason many christians seek death is that there are worse outcomes than a short life and temporaral poverty. Our wives and husbands might be better equipped to take care of our families with us dead. We can't assume at all expenses that Jesus believes it is critical for our families for us to stay alive. We can have friends in heaven but our wives and husbands stop being our wives and husbands in heaven.

Ronald · May 7, 2019

BCsenior said:
This is all very exciting, but you have missed
out on the NT verses which warn of beleivers
in the churches LOSING eternal life, and
other believers GAINING eternal death.

Here's another way to look at it ...
Why would there be so many warning verses
to unsaved people in the churches?

For example ...
There are many "IF" conditional NT verses,
such as: IF you continue to remain faithful,
you will receive what you hope for in Christ.

I don't think so. There are verses that were directed to the Jews, those who have experienced God, tasted of His glory, lived by the Word, the Law, yet did not receive Christ.
Its crucial to understand who the writer is talking to - those particular messages are not for all. The Gentiles did not have the Law and so even Paul rebuked Peter concerning Judiasers for various misunderstandings.

Dave L · May 7, 2019

BCsenior said:
“But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)

(1) -- the cowardly
This group represents at least 3 sub-groups:
(A) - People who are afraid of accepting and/or
confessing Jesus (for a variety of reasons)
(B) - BACs who fall away from the faith during the great persecution of Christians
(Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:22, Mark 13:13)
(C) - BACs who submit to taking the deadly mark of the beast during the time of the antichrist
(Revelation 13:7-17, Revelation 14:9-10,
Revelation 20:4, and also 2:10, 12:11)

(2) -- the unbelieving
This group obviously are those who
do NOT believe in Jesus Christ.
(However, God does say that those who are disobedient are proving their unbelief:
Hebrews 3:18-19, 4:3-6, 4:11).

(3) -- the abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars
This group represents a long list of sinners, especially habitual sinners.
And this group represents at least 2 sub-groups:
(A) - All non-believers who are habitual sinners.
(B) - All BACs who choose to be habitual sinners
----- (Many NT verses teach they are NOT
-- --- on the path to eternal life.)
Please note
Those in (A) can become BACs.
Those in (B) can repent (stop sinning) and
get back on that narrow path to eternal life.

Please note
Group (3) does NOT include BACs who commit the occasional sin (and then repent), for these
are co-operating with the precious Holy Spirit,
as per Romans 8 …
● walking according to the Spirit (8:1, 8:4)
● living according to the Spirit (8:5)
● spiritually minded (8:6)
● in the Spirit (8:9)
● putting to death the flesh >
in order to live spiritually (8:13)
● being led by the Spirit >
proving they are sons of God (8:14)
● suffering with Him >
to be joint heirs with Christ (8:17)
$$$ These BACs are slaves of obedience,
leading to righteousness (Romans 6:16)
... and are slaves of righteousness,
leading to holiness (Romans 6:19).
This is all part of being sanctified unto holiness!

You do not understand the new birth. Only those not born again will fail to overcome sin and perish. Trying to overcome in the weakness of the flesh.

BCsenior · May 7, 2019

devin553344 said:
“But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Are our churches today full of those types of people? I wouldn't think so.

Probably all except murderers and sorcerers.

BCsenior · May 7, 2019

aiki said:
Your type-C cowards also don't exist, they are a fiction; for no true born-again child of God would take the Mark of the Beast.

Some world-wide will take it out of ignorance.
Then, there's the normal case where families are starving to death because they cannot buy nor sell ... and they choose life over death ...
and will be hoping for the best!
But, it will be the worst.
The antichrist is alive and well on planet earth,
and will soon be revealing himself.
(Many claim to know that he is Obama.)

BCsenior · May 7, 2019

aiki said:
You really have an axe to grind with this saved-and-lost, works-salvation stuff! You just can't let off promoting these false doctrines! Yikes!

FYI, the Lord God has called many of His people to WARN the rest of His people about such things as NT verses which are His warnings!
These "called" people are His prophets and watchmen.
If that's not okay with you, why don't you complain to Him about it.

BCsenior · May 7, 2019

Ronald said:
Its crucial to understand who the writer is talking to - those particular messages are not for all.

With your logic, no verses apply to you!
Congratulations!
You're home free ... with no condemnation!

Ronald · May 7, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Belief in Christ includes doing as Christ says to do, or do you think we can ignore what he tells us we must do, and still call ourselves believers? That's not a rhetorical question, and once you answer it I'll comment further. A dodge doesn't count as an answer and if that happens, no sense in commenting.

I take an overall approach to that, whatever it is exactly, it ain't good.

Good, do you think we need to do good in order to make it to heaven? Or do you pick and choose what part of what Jesus said in order to style the Gospel into what you want it to be? Both pertinent questions that I hope you will answer clearly.

The very reason he is teaching Gods word. Do you not know that is what God told us to do, teach his word, yet when done people are guilty of Judging? Do you think God would tell us to spread his word if it was wrong to do so? And If you will notice, his scripture is directly from the bible...God's word.

The OP judges no one to Hell....that is all Gods doing.

Sure he will, we get saved and decide the world and all it has to offer is better than salvation so we walk away. There is nothing biblical in what you are saying, bur here is scripture on the parable of the sower to prove my end of this:

Luke 8:

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The prior scripture was a quote from Jesus, and says differently. Jesus is not going to force anyone who chooses the world over salvation t come back, it defeats the whole purpose of coming to him willingly. God didn't create a bunch of Yes Men robots so he could pretend they love home when they were only forced to do so, he gave them free will to go or stay anytime they please....that is the test of love for God.

Did you not read the scripture he presented? Would you like to discuss them, prove them wrong, or just stick with empty accusations that never really gets down to scripture?

Wrong. Please read a couple or socomments up, the one that starts with "The prior scripture was a quote from Jesus"

Luke 8:13 actually is the verse I was referring to. Those seeds falling on any soil other than the fertile are not saved. Being transformed spiritually by the Holy Spirit is a change in being, nature and then the sealing by the Holy Spirit is a Holy eternal act. We were bought with a price, we were predestined, we are the ELECT. GOD'S PLAN IS PERFECT - NO FLAWS, NO ERRORS. HE IS FAITHFUL, THE HOLY SPIRIT CONFIRMS OUR ETERNAL RELATIINSHIP WITH HIM. Again, there are many who pretend to be part of the Body, put on a big smile on Sunday, even particulate in good works, evangelism, etc., but have not been baptised by the Holy Spirit. Then the rest of the week they live how they chose, director of their own destiny.
David Koresh memorized the Bible, thought he was Christ and who could argue with such a command of scriptures, yet it was a superficial understanding, a distorted view. He used it to develop a harem of all the women (married or not). Do you think he was sealed by the Holy Spirit? You would be surprised, some priests, pastors that talk a great talk yet are involved in evil schemes, lust for money, women or children.
I submit to you, they are wolves in sheep's clothing, rates among the wheat and NOT BORN AGAIN.

BCsenior · May 7, 2019

Ronald said:
Again, there are many who pretend to be part of the Body, put on a big smile on Sunday, even particulate in good works, evangelism, etc., but have not been baptised by the Holy Spirit.

Do you understand what being baptized with the Holy Spirit means?

Kenny'sID · May 7, 2019

Ronald said:
Luke 8:13 actually is the verse I was referring to. Those seeds falling on any soil other than the fertile are not saved.

It never ceases to amaze me how those who don't want to see cannot see.

Here it is again, and please pay close attention to the terminology, it's there for a reason.

"They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

The scripture said they "believed" and before you actually try to make something else out of that term, the following verse defines the term "believe" and drives the point home:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

So there is no doubt what "believe" there means, and that they were saved for awhile. But if that's not enough, they "fell away", what do you think they fell away from?

And I realize there are preachers out there that have gained the trust of many by teaching easy way salvation/what people want to hear, and they will look you right in the eye and tell you those in that verse were "Never saved to begin with" but it's clearly not the truth.

If you disagree, can you please tell me what the term "believe" there means? Also, what did they "fall away" from?

devin553344 · May 7, 2019

BCsenior said:
Probably all except murderers and sorcerers.

Is that what your church is like that you attend? And, if I may ask, which denomination are you coming from? I am interesting to know.

BCsenior · May 7, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
"They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

It could mean believe intellectually
... but not a deep heart belief.

Then, there's the fact that most today do NOT
understand what true saving belief really is!

Taking the whole of the NT into account
(which very few actually do),
true saving belief MUST include:
- enduring belief in Jesus and the gospel
- enduring trust in Jesus
- obedience to Jesus' commandments
- practicing righteousness
- repenting of sins
etc.

BCsenior · May 7, 2019

devin553344 said:
Is that what your church is like that you attend?

Just about every church today in N.A.
has some of these ...
cowardly, unbelieving, abominable,
sexually immoral, idolaters, liars

Kenny'sID · May 7, 2019

BCsenior said:
It could mean believe intellectually
... but not a deep heart belief.

But why would "temptation" make them fall away from intellectual belief? Fortunately, the parable is a perfect as the one citing it, and unless someone chooses not to believe it there is just no way around what it means, and I have see them try, always a sight to see.

BCsenior said:
Then, there's the fact that most today do NOT
understand what true saving belief really is!

Agree, to them it's just saying "I believe", and they don't even have to do as the one they claim to believe in tells them to do.

Bizarre to say the least.

Just for the sake of making a point, believing in Santa makes kids try to be nice, and not be naughty, because they believe what he told them they had to do...true belief. So even a child understands..

BCsenior · May 7, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
But why would "temptation" make them fall away from intellectual belief?

W/O me going and reading it again ...
IMO, almost anything could make a shallow
intellectual believer fall away from any kind
of true and real belief system.

IOW, casual belief is easily cancelled.

devin553344 · May 7, 2019

BCsenior said:
Just about every church today in N.A.
has some of these ...
cowardly, unbelieving, abominable,
sexually immoral, idolaters, liars

Sure, maybe. I think it's important to point out, in the context of your OP warning Revelation 21:8, that there is much more that will perish under the context of such NT judgments. Mark 10:24-27

25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

26 Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?”

27 Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

So then are you also of the reasoning to sell all that you have, forsake your family, and follow after Jesus? Matthew 19:20-21

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him,If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

So what message of salvation does your OP point out? Clearly if I follow your logic and reasoning nearly all will perish. And who is not habitually sinning?

And I think that is why people regularly disagree with your posts. I kinda think everyone is habitually sinning under the law.

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