For those wishing to understand the 2 Holy Spirit baptisms

Saint Steven

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“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:15–16)
That's very weak for a proof.
The term "the other scriptures" doesn't necessarily affirm the Apostle's letters as scripture.
Especially since they were not canonized at that point.
 
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Dave L

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Why do you do this? You are being evasive.
If you study Azusa St. and Bethel Bible College, they got it wrong. And this became the typical Pentecostal understanding of Acts...which is wrong. If you drop their framework and study for yourself, you might be able to see what I'm talking about.
 
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Saint Steven

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No, they expired with the Apostles. But all believers have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Not correct on both counts.
Samaria and Ephesus prove that you are wrong about this.
You call them exceptions to the rule, but they are proof that your hypothesis is wrong.
 
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Saint Steven

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If you study Azusa St. and Bethel Bible College, they got it wrong. And this became the typical Pentecostal understanding of Acts...which is wrong. If you drop their framework and study for yourself, you might be able to see what I'm talking about.
I approached this whole subject from the evangelical framework.
I demanded biblical proof. Not sure why you keep forgetting that about me.
You speak to me as if I either haven't done my homework, or don't have the proper understanding. Both of which are false.
 
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Saint Steven

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Where do you draw the line between what is "Pentecostal" and what isn't?
The gifts are still in operation. There is no way to separate them.
It's all or nothing.

Either the Bible is a dead book, or we have the gifts of knowledge, wisdom and prophecy. Take your pick.
 
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Dave L

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I approached this whole subject from the evangelical framework.
I demanded biblical proof. Not sure why you keep forgetting that about me.
You speak to me as if I either haven't done my homework, or don't have the proper understanding. Both of which are false.
I used to believe like you until I couldn't take anymore. I still hope to write something called "Escape from Charismania" with a type of Indiana Jones look to it. Maybe steer a few folks into something more solid in the mainline churches.
 
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Saint Steven

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I used to believe like you until I couldn't take anymore. I still hope to write something called "Escape from Charismania" with a type of Indiana Jones look to it. Maybe steer a few folks into something more solid in the mainline churches.
From my perspective that is madness. (no offense intended)
Why turn your own isolated bad experience into a crusade against a segment of the body of Christ that is not having the bad experience you had?

Again, I left the mainline church because it was incomplete in my view.
But I am not campaigning against that segment of the body of Christ.
If another believer is most comfortable there, then that's where they should stay.
And if they are like me and see something missing, I'm glad to tell them what I know.
I do not condemn them for their beliefs. But what are you up to?
 
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Dave L

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From my perspective that is madness. (no offense intended)
Why turn your own isolated bad experience into a crusade against a segment of the body of Christ that is not having the bad experience you had?

Again, I left the mainline church because it was incomplete in my view.
But I am not campaigning against that segment of the body of Christ.
If another believer is most comfortable there, then that's where they should stay.
And if they are like me and see something missing, I'm glad to tell them what I know.
I do not condemn them for their beliefs. But what are you up to?
It is not isolated. There is something wrong in this movement. Look at the fine specimens on YouTube.
 
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Saint Steven

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It is not isolated. There is something wrong in this movement. Look at the fine specimens on YouTube.
Look at the fringes to judge the whole?
What if I took the same approach to evangelicalism?
Judging the mainline churches according to the most ugly and legalistic fringe groups.
Would that seem fair to you?
 
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Dave L

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Look at the fringes to judge the whole?
What if I took the same approach to evangelicalism?
Judging the mainline churches according to the most ugly and legalistic fringe groups.
Would that seem fair to you?
Their doctrine is false. And can never rise above this. I had to leave and study the word for myself to gain the freedom truth brings.
 
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The problem with understanding the 2 Holy Spirit baptisms is that the church today (and what it has been taught) is so different than what the NT church believed in. Satan has been successful in deceiving the church about several things, including “the baptism with the Holy Spirit” and the 9 spiritual power gifts (1 Cor. 12).
So, please read the following with an open mind & heart.

Paul said:
the Holy Spirit is the One who baptizes the new believer:
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body [the church] … and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:13)
The new believer (a BAC) receives the Holy Spirit INSIDE (John 14:16-23, Romans 8:11, 1 Corinthians 3:16, Galatians 4:6, 2 Timothy 1:14, 1 John 3:24,
1 John 4:12-16).

First: Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to His 11 disciples:
Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so
I am sending you.” Then He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit” (John 20:21-22)

And the Holy Spirit baptized them as new believers
(see 1 Cor 12:13 above). Please note …
All BACs are given peace by “the Prince of peace” (Isaiah 9:6).
“For Christ Himself has brought peace to us.” (Ephesians 2:14)
“God’s peace exceeds anything we can understand” (Philippians 4:7)


John the Baptist said:
Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit
in the following verses:
Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33.

Second: Jesus promised them that they would receive the gift of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which brings a spiritual anointing and power:
● “Behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you
are endued with power from on high.”
(Luke 24:49, NKJV)
● “Do not leave Jerusalem until the Father sends you the gift He promised, as I told you before
[in Luke 24:49]. John baptized with water, but in just a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 1:4)
● “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be My witnesses, telling people about Me everywhere …” (Acts 1:8)

The baptism with the Holy Spirit was the gift which had been promised.

Third: Jesus’ 11 disciples witnessed to many others
who became BACs:
“During this time, when about 120 believers
were together in one place, Peter stood up
and addressed them, “Brothers …” (Acts 1:15)

These 120 were all new believers (BACs actually) …
and they had received the Holy Spirit INSIDE
(see 1 Corinthians 12:13 above).

Fourth: a few days later, the now 12 disciples
(and others) experienced the day of Pentecost:
“On the day of Pentecost all the [120] believers were meeting together in one place. Suddenly, there was a sound from heaven like the roaring
of a mighty windstorm, and it filled the house where they were sitting. Then what looked like flames or tongues of fire appeared and settled [up]on each of them. And everyone present was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking
with other languages [tongues]
, as the Holy Spirit
gave them this ability.” (Acts 2:1-4)


On the day of Pentecost above, the Holy Spirit came
UPON the 120 believers. Peter tried to explain …
“And the Father gave Him [Jesus] the Holy Spirit to pour out upon us, just as you see and hear today. … Each of you must repent of your sins and turn
to God, and be [water] baptized in the name of
Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
This promise
is to you, and to your children,
and even to the Gentiles …” (Acts 2:33-39)


Other examples of the baptism with the Holy Spirit (where we see UPON)

“… Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them* … For as yet He
[the Holy Spirit] had fallen upon none of them*.
They* had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them*, and they received the Holy Spirit. And when Simon saw that through the laying on of hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying,
‘Give me this power also, that anyone on whom
I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.’”
(Acts 8:14-19)
* the Samarians

“… the Holy Spirit fell upon all those [Gentiles]
who heard the word … the gift of the Holy Spirit
had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they [Peter and his companions] heard them speak
with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter asked,
‘Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized [in water] who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?’ And he commanded them to be [water] baptized in the name of the Lord.“ (Acts 10:44-48)

“… the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at
the beginning. Then I remembered the word of
the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ ” (Acts 11:15-16)

“… they [the disciples in Ephesus] were baptized [in water] in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues
and prophesied …” (Acts 19:5-6)

Water baptism preceded the baptism with the Holy Spirit (but in Acts 10 above the reverse was true).

There are other examples of this baptism
(where UPON is not specified).

1 Cor. 12:13 i better translated with or in one spirit, not by one spirit. People aren't baptized by the Holy Spirit, they are baptized with the Holy Spirit. In the beginning of you OP one can see the tension that this translation causes. First you said new believers are baptized by the Holy Spirit and after that you said that Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. If Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit what is the Holy Spirit baptizing with? Christians are baptized with one Spirit or in one Spirit. That is the Holy Spirit. As You point out Jesus baptizes people with or in the Holy Spirit. I think sometimes the translators let their bias determine their translation.
 
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