I heard onetime where this woman speaking had said that she didn't have one of those little pieces of papers like a pastorate and such, but she had a masters in theology. Now days it seems to me that signs and wonders have been supplanted by degrees ie doctorates, masters ,ba's and what have you. Without the Lord confirming with signs following what do you have?
Signs and Wonders, where are they today?
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There is a difference between a degree and an ordination. One is recognizing academic achievement the other is recognizing a calling from God. Both are good things, but they are not the same, although people can and do conflate the two.
As for signs, wonders and miracles. First off my advice would be to ignore the other post. It is not appropriate for this thread. Secondly, I think that signs, wonders and miracles should accompany a calling, but that can manifest in a wide variety of ways. Look at John the Baptist. He came in the "spirit of Elijah" yet he had no recorded miracles. Still Jesus called him the greatest of the OT prophets. His ministry itself was a sign.
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I understand that, but Jesus was not yet resurrected so John could not have performed miracles in the New Testament sense. that is after Pentecost. I neglected to add a verse that came to me after I made that extensive post, 2nd Timothy3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such stay away.
Prior to the crucifixition even Judas performed miracles using only the name of Jesus. This is shown in Luke10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject to us through thy name.
And in the negative sense Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.(v.22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (v.23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The implication here is that these miracle workers did not do the will of the Father in heaven and were so excluded. Yet they did these works. The Lord did not deny that these works did occur, but these were excluded nonetheless as in; Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The weeping and gnashing of teeth statement seems to be especially reserved for bad servants as in; Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
See also Matthew 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of. (v.51) And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Because this involves the servants of this lord we see Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire: so shall it be in the end of the world. (v.41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity: (v.42)And shall cast them into into a furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
This is supported in Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, (v.50) And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Now this king is looking at his wedding guests, Matthew 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. (13) Then said the king to the servants: bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Finally Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and ye yourselves thrust out.
This is a judgement of the kingdom of God when the tares are separated from the wheat at the second coming. Within the church you have two classes, those who bring no fruit to perfection and those who bring forth fruit with patience. These two can be seen in the parable of the sower concerning the seed among thorns and those on the good ground.
Prior to the crucifixition even Judas performed miracles using only the name of Jesus. This is shown in Luke10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject to us through thy name.
And in the negative sense Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.(v.22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (v.23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The implication here is that these miracle workers did not do the will of the Father in heaven and were so excluded. Yet they did these works. The Lord did not deny that these works did occur, but these were excluded nonetheless as in; Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The weeping and gnashing of teeth statement seems to be especially reserved for bad servants as in; Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
See also Matthew 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of. (v.51) And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Because this involves the servants of this lord we see Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire: so shall it be in the end of the world. (v.41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity: (v.42)And shall cast them into into a furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
This is supported in Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, (v.50) And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Now this king is looking at his wedding guests, Matthew 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. (13) Then said the king to the servants: bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Finally Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and ye yourselves thrust out.
This is a judgement of the kingdom of God when the tares are separated from the wheat at the second coming. Within the church you have two classes, those who bring no fruit to perfection and those who bring forth fruit with patience. These two can be seen in the parable of the sower concerning the seed among thorns and those on the good ground.
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While I do not doubt that the Lord can heal today - he healed me of M.E 10 years ago, and that some, maybe many, can testify to great miracles, my question is; why do we need to see them?
The Lord confirmed the Gospel with signs because it was a new revelation - GOD himself had come to earth, in human form and offered his own life as a sacrifice.
Unlike the OT, God was not someone aloof, who sat in heaven and communicated through a few prophets, he became one of us and experienced our human lives and would one day live IN us. Almighty God, creator of the universes living IN his people.
The people of Jesus' day did not know/believe this - so Jesus showed them just how much God loved them, cared for them and how much power he had. We know all this; we live this side of the cross, resurrection and Pentecost, have the example of hundreds of Christians throughout history, and the written word of God. We KNOW that we can never be separated from God's love; we can read it in Scripture. We can KNOW that the risen Christ lives in us by his Spirit; again, it is in Scripture, along with many many other teachings.
God's word is just as powerful now as it was then, of course, and, again, he can work in any way he chooses - but I do not believe we should need confirmation of his word or displays of his miraculous power today, as they did then.
The constant, daily, miracle is - for me anyway - that Jesus lived and died for me, that he was raised in glory and that he lives inside me. Being healed of M.E was fabulous and I am so grateful and happy for it, but I hope I never come to value the miracle more than God himself.
As for degrees and diplomas; it is not wrong to study, indeed it is commended. What would be wrong would be if those who hold such high qualifications use them as a sign of security - i.e "I am someone because I have a doctorate".
No, they are someone because they were created, saved and are loved by the Lord our God.
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I'm deeply sorry, but that's all cessationist nonsense, and against what the Bible teaches. Yes, the bible says that Spiritual gifts act as signs; they also minister help to a dying world and injured church. Make no mistake, cessation, even "soft cessation," is unbelief, not of faith, and outright sin. What scripture limits the gifts to function solely as signs? I've never had any cessationist ever find any, and they've tried, their whole doctrine hinges on it, and no matter how hard they try they can't find it in the Bible. We don't see the gifts operate much because we are just like the people of Nazareth, and then we have the unmitigated audacity to blame God for the fruits of our own unbelief. ...and when I say "we" I really do include myself. I am painfully mired in my own unbelief, and nearly grieved to say, I am aware of it.
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No it's not. I said a) that God can heal today, b) that he healed me from M.E and c) that he that he can work in whatever way he chooses.
My point is that with the resurrection, the whole of Scripture and 2000 years of Christian witness, we should not need signs and wonders to confirm the Gospel or produce faith.
I also believe that God's signs and wonders are all around us; the beauty of creation and the wonder or new physical, and spiritual, life. But he most certainly can, and does, heal today.
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That's what they call soft cessation. It acknowledges that cessationism is unbiblical but clings to it anyway, excusing the fact that the doctrine opposes scripture by blaming God. If God can refuse to heal someone how do we know He will save anyone? Maybe He said "no" when we asked to be saved. If He can heal or not heal on a whim, salvation is not assured either. The price was paid for both by Jesus and if God can refuse to honor that sacrifice for healing why is salvation different? Because preachers preach assurance when it comes to salvation, and they teach "maybe" when it comes to all of God's other promises, so we have nearly the whole church being just like Nazareth.
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I am not a cessationist.
That you think I am, means that either you haven't read, or understood, my posts.
Maybe for some - not me.
Where did I say that God can refuse to heal?
I am talking about needing to see signs and wonders to produce, or as evidence of, faith.
No.
I wasn't talking about healing, why some are healed and not others, nor suggesting that lack of healing was anything to do with our faith/God's ability.
My point was that as we have the cross, resurrection, indwelling Holy Spirit and many years of Christian testimony, why do we NEED to see the Gospel confirmed with signs as they did in Jesus' day?
I am not saying that there are no signs/gifts nowadays, that God cannot heal, nor anything else.
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I know you are not a cessationist. I couldn't find a way to say what I was trying to say without it seeming like I was accusing you.
Why do we need the gifts? Because the Bible says so.
1 Peter 2:24 AMPC
He personally bore our sins in His [own] body on the tree [as on an altar and offered Himself on it], that we might die (cease to exist) to sin and live to righteousness. By His wounds you have been healed.
James 5:16 AMPC
Confess to one another therefore your faults (your slips, your false steps, your offenses, your sins) and pray [also] for one another, that you may be healed and restored [to a spiritual tone of mind and heart]. The earnest (heartfelt, continued) prayer of a righteous man makes tremendous power available [dynamic in its working].
Mark 16:15-19 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
15 And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach and publish openly the good news (the Gospel) to every creature [of the whole human race].
16 He who believes [who adheres to and trusts in and relies on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth] and is baptized will be saved [from the penalty of eternal death]; but he who does not believe [who does not adhere to and trust in and rely on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth] will be condemned.
17 And these attesting signs will accompany those who believe: in My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new languages;
18 They will pick up serpents; and [even] if they drink anything deadly, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will get well.
19 So then the Lord Jesus, after He had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and He sat down at the right hand of God.
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Well, personally I don't believe that we need them, but I think we'll need to agree to differ.
If people don't want to believe they'll find ways of explaining any miracles that they see - just as some girls at school used to dismiss my answered prayers as "luck" or "co-incidence". I also think that if God wanted to perform healing miracles whenever people preach on Sundays, he would.
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Of course we need the gifts. God tells us to operate in them. I think He knows better than we do. Jesus operated in the gifts. Is the strength of our flesh greater than His that we don't need as much of the workings of the Spirit as He did? If we don't need the gifts why did God not give us a biblical account of a Christian life without them? No, God gave us the account of miracles, healings, a follower of His being one place then suddenly another, but we have a better idea. We think it's better to live a safe life that requires no faith, and so much less risk, and so much less work, (yet so much more toil). But this powerless, Spiritless life is not the one the bible describes. The gifts don't prove how Godly we are; they prove how Godly God is, that He will care for people through such poor conduits as us, and make it work.Well, personally I don't believe that we need them, but I think we'll need to agree to differ.
If people don't want to believe they'll find ways of explaining any miracles that they see - just as some girls at school used to dismiss my answered prayers as "luck" or "co-incidence". I also think that if God wanted to perform healing miracles whenever people preach on Sundays, he would.
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I wasn't talking about gifts as such, I was talking the need to SEE signs and wonders.
Yes, I know healing is a gift - but so is service, Romans 12:7, encouragement, Romans 12:8, giving, Romans 12:8 and administration, 1 Corinthians 12:28.
These are all just as valid and useful as the gift of healing or being able to do miracles.
Yes; see above.
But how many Christians do you know who pray for the gift of administration, or the gift of giving?
I didn't say we don't need spiritual gifts, I said that I, personally, don't think we NEED to see signs and wonders in the way that they did in the 1st century. We are living after the resurrection, have the Holy Spirit IN us and have the whole Bible. The Bible reveals God to us and His Spirit testifies that his word is true.
You might do; many don't.
Yes - the Holy Spirit gives gifts to Christians to help us build up the church and live our Christian lives. He gives each Christian the gift(s) he wants them to have - which may be the gift of administration, service, helping or giving.
I'm not saying that you're saying this, but I've noticed that debates on Spiritual gifts tend to focus only on the outward and demonstrative one - miracles, healings and tongues. The other gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:28, Romans 12:6-8 and Ephesians 4:11 are just a important and valid. As are gifts of music and craftsmanship given to people in the OT so they could build the tabernacle and worship God at the opening of the temple.
But, again, I wasn't referring to the Spiritual gifts as such; only saying that as we live after the resurrection and Pentecost and have the whole Bible, we don't NEED to see signs to confirm our faith, as maybe they did then.
I know many who became Christians without seeing any miracles at all, and may never have seen any. Yet they still believe, and proclaim, the Gospel.
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Hello Randy. The Holy Bible says:
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I don't see where the anti-study mindset comes from. After all, if you go to seek medical advice, you will go to a trained doctor, rather than letting some random person examine you. If you go to a court you will seek advice from a trained lawyer, rather than some random passerby. But you would hand your soul over to some untrained, random person? It doesn't make much sense!
Of course if an institution is not valid, or is apostate, it would not be wise to study there. Otherwise I believe the word of God shows us that we should study. God Bless
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Hello Randy. The Holy Bible says:
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I don't see where the anti-study mindset comes from. After all, if you go to seek medical advice, you will go to a trained doctor, rather than letting some random person examine you. If you go to a court you will seek advice from a trained lawyer, rather than some random passerby. But you would hand your soul over to some untrained, random person? It doesn't make much sense!
Of course if an institution is not valid, or is apostate, it would not be wise to study there. Otherwise I believe the word of God shows us that we should study. God Bless
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Miracles are where the faith is.
Galatians 3:5-7 King James Version (KJV)
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
If the place you are is devoid of faith... find a place where faith is alive and thriving. If you are around people who deny that healings and miracles are for today... go from those and find people who still believe. If you are in a place where faith has been supplanted by religion and the wisdom of men... go from there and find a place where there is an old country preacher who believes. The place you go to may be ridiculed and made fun of. That is what will happen to those who believe in such things. Don't think miracles are going to make you or your church famous. Get ready for persecution. The devil will not like you. That is ok.
"Lord... I will gladly be a fool for you. Give us power and the Words to speak."
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