John MacArthur explains easy-believism, grace-only, etc.

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I forgot to respond to this part.


"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 3:12).

Well, this verse is about the goal of our Sanctification to be perfect. Nowhere did I state that I have reached a state of perfection or putting away minor unintentional infractions or minor faults of character. But these are not grievous sins that lead unto spiritual death that the Bible does clearly condemn

Paul admitted that he himself was not perfect (in the flesh or otherwise) despite being endowed with the Spirit of God so much so that his writings comprised the bulk of the NT (probably the greatest glory God could ever bestow upon a mortal). According to your view of things, Paul would not be permitted entrance to the Kingdom, because he (admittedly) was not perfect in this world.

Jesus also said in Matthew 11:11 that John was the greatest man ever born, and yet all in the kingdom of heaven were greater than he. How could this be possible if not for a post death glorification which transcends our mortal existence not based upon our works and circumstances?

If Paul didn't believe in sinless perfectionism, neither should you or anyone else. If Paul didn't achieve sinlessness in this world, but knew he would be striving towards that mark until he died, who are we to ever expect to achieve it?
 
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LOL - Haven't you heard? Those who start threads are basically making themselves a dart board. :)
Hang in there....this has been a really good thread, at least for me, so I really appreciate it a lot. Great job!
Thanks, but I didn't do much except start it.
Super pleased that you've been so blessed.
 
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The Bible said:
[Luk 13:24 NLT] 24 "Work hard to enter the narrow door to God's Kingdom, for many will try to enter but will fail.
Jesus is referring to the fewness of the saved. Many will try to enter in other ways then He has ordained and will be left out in the darkness. He has said we must be born again to be saved. Some try through works righteousness, others through a profession-only faith....the only way to salvation is through the Cross.

In my experience most professing Sola Scriptura churches believe in either a Belief Alone Type Gospel, or OSAS. Most do not believe you have to live holy or bring forth works of faith after being saved by God's grace. So this does not line up with the verse that you quote. Narrow is the way, and FEW be there that finds it.

Note: Yes, I believe in Sola Scriptura. My point here is that the majority of believers who profess the Bible is their sole authority believe in a form of greasy grace that Jude 1:4 warns us about.

Jesus also agreed to the truth that loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17-19). Jesus said that certain individuals who do not help the poor will be cast into everlasting fire (Matthew 25:31-46). Truly this is the narrow way that many do not want to walk.

The Bible said:
[Eph 4:3 NLT] 3 Make every effort to keep yourselves united in the Spirit, binding yourselves together with peace.
[2Pe 1:5 NLT] 5 In view of all this, make every effort to respond to God's promises. Supplement your faith with a generous provision of moral excellence, and moral excellence with knowledge,
[2Pe 3:14 NLT] 14 And so, dear friends, while you are waiting for these things to happen, make every effort to be found living peaceful lives that are pure and blameless in his sight.

You said:
I quoted them together because they are all very similar. These verses refer to sanctification; the evidence of a new birth in someone's life. A true Christian will show works; not to be saved, but as a result of and evidence of salvation. "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. (1 John 3:9)"

Okay. Several problems here. First problem: You are making the assumption that believers do not need to endure to the end, continue in the faith, keep themselves in the love of God, etc. because they are regenerated (as if living holy was some kind of automatic thing).

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" Hebrews 3:13-14.

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12.

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Matthew 24:13.

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Revelation 2:7.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5.

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21.​

Why does the Bible tell us to overcome, endure, keep yourself in the love of God if it is automatic on our part to do such things?

Second problem, the Bible repeatedly shows that works do play a part in the salvation process after we are saved.

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

Third problem, the verses are not corresponding to what you have said.

Ephesians 4:3 says to make every effort or to endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Why would Paul have to command us to do this if it was an automatic thing that we would do as a part of being regenerated? There are consequences for not following after peace with all men, and in not living holy.

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

Such men will not see the Lord (i.e. Meaning, they will not be saved). Again, why warn us about something that could never happen?

You mention 2 Peter 1:5. If you were to keep reading it says this:

"Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall" (2 Peter 1:10).

Peter here says if you do these things that he instructs, you shall never fall. So it is not an automatic thing, and you can fall, as well. In the next chapter, Peter also warns against false prophets who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14). Yet, many in the Belief Alone or OSAS camp say that nobody can cease from doing certain kinds of sins (Which would include grievous sins), and thus this is the reason they are saved by God's grace alone by faith or belief in Jesus. Peter also says in 1 Peter 4:1-2 that a person can cease from sin (grievous sin), and that we should live the rest of our time not to the lusts of the flesh but to the will of God.

As for 2 Peter 3:14:

Keep reading. It says this in verse 17.

"Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." (2 Peter 3:17).

In 2 Peter 2:5-6, we are warned that Sodom and Gomorrah, and the global flood were examples to all who live ungodly thereafter.
 
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Why does the Bible tell us to overcome, endure, keep yourself in the love of God if it is automatic on our part to do such things?

Because unlike Jesus, Paul cannot determine, exactly, who is and is not saved. Therefore, he encourages all to endure. For those that endure truly held the indwelling Spirit. Those who do not endure, never possessed the Spirit. I even say these things to myself, for I strive to obey to ensure who I am, so that I might stand with full confidence on the Day of the Lord.
 
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If you believe you can lose your salvation through sin, there's a couple of problems:

No. You have things backwards. There are problems if you don't believe the Bible's plain teaching that you can lose salvation by sin; For the Bible repeatedly teaches that sin can separate you from God.

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

"Now we know that God hears not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears." (John 9:31).

“But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.” (Proverbs 6:32).

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

1. What works cause you to lose your salvation?

Works of evil or grievous sin.

Grievous sin is another name for a "sin unto death"
(Note: To check out the reference to the "sin unto death," see: 1 John 5:16).
(i.e. death = spiritual death or the second death) (Note: The second death is destruction in the Lake of Fire - Revelation 21:8).

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" (Genesis 18:20).​

Examples of Grievous Sin:

#1. Not loving God, and not loving your neighbor (For loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of eternal life; See: Luke 10:25-28 cf. Matthew 19:17-19; Not loving Jesus (God) means one is accursed, see: 1 Corinthians 16:22; As for not loving your neighbor, see the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37), and then see number #5 below).

#2. Looking at a woman in lust = danger of being cast bodily into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

#3. Not forgiving = not being forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15).

#4. One can be condemned by their words (Matthew 12:37).

#5. Not helping the poor or the unfortunate = Going away into everlasting punishment (or everlasting fire) (Matthew 25:31-46).

#6. No man who puts his hand to the plow (i.e. one who spreads the gospel and teachings to lead men of God into holiness by His Word) and looks back (turns away from doing so) is fit for the Kingdom of God (Luke 9:62) (Note: See the KJV rendering on this verse).

#7. 1 John 3:15 says, "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

#8. Galatians 5:19-21 says, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Meaning, those who do these kinds of sins will not inherit (enter) God's kingdom (i.e. they will not be saved). For entering God's kingdom is associated with salvation in Matthew 25:34 (Note: Paul is mentioning the violation of the Moral Law. The Moral Law is the same equivalent as loving your neighbor; See Romans 13:8-10).

#9. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8).

You said:
How many do you have to commit?

It only takes one grievous unrepentant sin to be condemned by God. Adam and Eve died spiritually by their one sin. Ananais and Sapphira were killed when they lied to the Holy Ghost, and a great fear came upon the church, and all who heard about it. It is not normal for a church to be in fear over saved believers dying. They would feel remorse or sadness, but not fear if they knew they were safely in the arms of Jesus. The point here is why would anyone want to test God and find out? God warns us of the consequences of not obeying certain commands, and we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling. But today, there is no fear in the church.

You said:
What is considered really bad, bad enough to cost you your soul, and what is considered just a weakness of human nature?

Jesus recognizes that believers can struggle with their flesh. But there are ways to overcome grievous sin with the help of Jesus and by the power of His Word (the Bible). If we do not employ these methods, and become proactive, the blame only falls upon us for being lazy.

You said:
It very naturally leads to the Catholic system of mortal and venial sin with very particular details as to what is a sin that can cost you your salvation; and there is major problems with that system.

Just because Catholics are able to recognize the difference between grievous sin and minor infractions (or faults of character) in Scripture, does not mean that they get the entire subject matter exactly correct. Much of what they say is also based on their tradition and not solely Scripture alone. This is why their thinking on this is a bit muddied when it comes to the correct categorization of what sins can condemn and what sins do not condemn.

Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:16 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).

"Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."
(Psalms 19:12).​

Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:

#1. 1 John 5:16-17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin.

#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.

Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).

Side Note:

Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.

And of course, you can never be sure of your salvation. You always could have sinned bad enough to lose it, contrary to what Jesus teaches in John 10:26-29. Or you judge yourself as good enough to not have lost it, which has its own problems.

No. You are not reading John 10:26-29 correctly. Verse 27 gives us the condition of not being plucked out of his hand in verse 28. Verse 27 says we have to FOLLOW Jesus so as to be the kind of sheep that cannot be plucked out of his hand in verse 28.

2. All that we are in Christ, all that salvation is, and we can just lose it? And gain it back again? And lose it again? We're a new creation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a child of God- and all that's out the window if we sin?

Yes. What do you think happened in the garden?

How do we become un-born again?

You cannot become unborn again spiritually, but you can most certainly can die spiritually (of which the Bible talks a lot about). The Parable of the Prodigal Son proves this fact. When the son came home to the father and he was willing to repent, the father said to him that he was "dead" and he is now "alive again." The parable is speaking in spiritual terms. He was dead spiritually when he was living in sin with his prodigal life, and he is now alive again spiritually in coming back home to his father and repenting (seeking forgiveness) with him (See Luke 15:11-31).

You said:
How do we go back from being a child of God to a child of wrath, and then a child of God again? How many times can you commit a serious sin and repent and what's the Scriptural evidence for it? It leads to the unmistakable conclusion that nothing God has done in our life has actually been done, but it's all potential, all waiting for us to maintain it. But Scripture says "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29)"

This is why we are to endure to the end, overcome, keep ourselves in the love of God. Fight the good fight of faith. If not, there is nothing to endure, overcome, or to fight for anything. All a person has to do is just kick back and eat their Cheetos on the couch and wait for Christ to return while others suffer and cry outside their door for the hope of Christ and his salvation to change their lives.

Jude 1:24 ESV
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy

Jude 1:4 warns against those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality. So Jude 1:24 would not apply to such individuals. God keeps the believer who does not justify sin, and if they seek the help of God (via prayer) and they apply the power of His Word to their lives.

You said:
2 Corinthians 1:22 ESV
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Seals are not a bank vault or a padlock that cannot be broken. The seals mentioned in Scripture are actually said that they can be broken.

You said:
2 Timothy 2:19 ESV
But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

How is that possible if one teaches that no sin can separate you from God?
If there are no true real consequences in committing in grievous sin, then one will make light of sin and not really make it all that important to overcome because all that is required to be saved is to believe in Jesus. No need to worry in doing much of anything if such is the case. For if there was no consequences in speeding on the highway then people would go at whatever speed they liked (even if there was a law saying not to go above a certain speed). But if a person knew they could be fined 50,000 dollars and get prison time for speeding 5 miles over the speed limit, I guarantee you that all speeding would either be greatly reduced or would be almost non existent.
 
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Because unlike Jesus, Paul cannot determine, exactly, who is and is not saved. Therefore, he encourages all to endure. For those that endure truly held the indwelling Spirit. Those who do not endure, never possessed the Spirit. I even say these things to myself, for I strive to obey to ensure who I am, so that I might stand with full confidence on the Day of the Lord.

Jesus says you will be able to know them by their fruit (Matthew 7).

Do they have the fruits of the Spirit?

Or do they have bad fruit?

John says if any person says they know the Lord and yet they do not keep his commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4).
 
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There are problems if you don't believe the Bible's plain teaching that you can lose salvation by sin; For the Bible repeatedly teaches that sin can separate you from God.

If you apply the fact (or notion, in this case) that the verses that you're using below are [not] describing a regenerate soul, then it would no longer be a plain teaching. But, if we applied the idea that these people were at one point saved, then of course, sin could separate us from God. But what we're saying is that there is a difference in understanding who these passages are referring to.

For example, someone earlier said that Ananias and Sapphira lost their salvation. That would only depend on if they had placed their Abraham-like faith into Jesus, who alone grants the Holy Spirit, who alone grants Eternal Life. I may be wrong, but I don't recall there ever being any indication that they held genuine faith in Christ. They may have thought that they were saved and acted upon a deceived heart, but the actions of selling a field could be done by any misguided pagan.

I suppose I should read the story for a refresher before posting. Sorry.
 
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Jesus says you will be able to know them by their fruit (Matthew 7).

Not only does the text not tell us who, exactly, he is referring to, but we also don't know of they're years in the faith or still on Spiritual Milk....which is learning about what saves and does not save. Young Christians aren't producing fruit, thus those in their years of obedience realize, perfectly, that this teaching is for the youngsters in the faith, not those who understand through experience.
 
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I am not defending Mcarthur here. However I noticed something in the way you read John's quote



I think he means the "carnal" believers live no differently than unregenerated. Not David himself living no differently. Notice the word I underlined.

John MacArthur believes in Once Saved Always Saved and he does not believe a saint can lose salvation. So he believes King David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder. This then means that we can also be like a King David, too. We can do those same kinds of sins and still be saved. So all his talk on holiness is just a sham and it really does not amount to anything. In other words, it is a smoke screen.
 
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If you apply the fact (or notion, in this case) that the verses that you're using below are [not] describing a regenerate soul, then it would no longer be a plain teaching. But, if we applied the idea that these people were at one point saved, then of course, sin could separate us from God. But what we're saying is that there is a difference in understanding who these passages are referring to.

For example, someone earlier said that Ananias and Sapphira lost their salvation. That would only depend on if they had placed their Abraham-like faith into Jesus, who alone grants the Holy Spirit, who alone grants Eternal Life. I may be wrong, but I don't recall there ever being any indication that they held genuine faith in Christ. They may have thought that they were saved and acted upon a deceived heart, but the actions of selling a field could be done by any misguided pagan.

I suppose I should read the story for a refresher before posting. Sorry.

There are tons of verses in Scripture that talk about how a believer can lose their salvation if they are not careful.

Hebrews 3:12-13 says this:

12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."

In other words it is saying that you can depart from the living God by having an evil heart of unbelief, and that the deceitfulness of sin can harden a person's heart.
 
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Not only does the text not tell us who, exactly, he is referring to, but we also don't know of they're years in the faith or still on Spiritual Milk....which is learning about what saves and does not save. Young Christians aren't producing fruit, thus those in their years of obedience realize, perfectly, that this teaching is for the youngsters in the faith, not those who understand through experience.

Check out Revelation 2:2. They were able to figure it out.
 
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We can do those same kinds of sins and still be saved. So all his talk on holiness is just a sham and it really does not amount to anything.

What I believe John would tell you is that these men did not live in adultery and murder. These acts were not an everyday part of their lives. Paul talks about how regenerate Christians will sin, by nature we must, but we will never be mastered by anything. That is the key. True Christians will [not] be mastered. David was not mastered by adultery and murder. But actually, his life was accustomed to having sex with TONS of women, I mean, wow that brother was gettin' it! And also, how many thousands of men did he kill, allegedly? So sex with many women and killing men were, in reality, part of his regular life. But, he always did those things under the guide and provision of his only Master, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. David was a truly, truly good man that rarely ever sinned, but it just so happened that he sinned in areas that he was incredibly proficient.
 
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But then this kinda sounds like Jesus has nothing to do with what happens inbetween...

Not at all. I believe Romans 13:14 just fine. But Amos 3:3 says, "Do two walk together unless they have agreed to do so?" In other words, God does not force us to be a certain way. We have to agree to walk with God.
 
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What I believe John would tell you is that these men did not live in adultery and murder. These acts were not an everyday part of their lives. Paul talks about how regenerate Christians will sin, by nature we must, but we will never be mastered by anything. That is the key. True Christians will [not] be mastered. David was not mastered by adultery and murder. But actually, his life was accustomed to having sex with TONS of women, I mean, wow that brother was gettin' it! And also, how many thousands of men did he kill, allegedly? So sex with many women and killing men were, in reality, part of his regular life. But, he always did those things under the guide and provision of his only Master, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. David was a truly, truly good man that rarely ever sinned, but it just so happened that he sinned in areas that he was incredibly proficient.

It only takes one act of adultery to be a Bible defined adulterer.

Leviticus 20:10 says,

"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife --with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."​

Jesus says that just looking upon a woman in lust was committing adultery in your heart and it is enough to have a person's entire body be cast into hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

It only takes one act of murder to be a bible defined murderer:

"If a man strikes someone with an iron object so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death. Or if anyone has a stone in his hand that could kill, and he strikes someone so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death. Or if anyone has a wooden object in his hand that could kill, and he hits someone so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death" (Numbers 35:16-18).​

According to the apostle John, if any man hate his brother, he is a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (See 1 John 3:15).

It is only when we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (See: 1 John 1:9).
It is when we walk in the light, as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (See: 1 John 1:7). It is when we endure temptation under trial that we receive the crown of life (See: James 1:12).

The problem I have with John MacArthur's teaching is that he is basically saying that you can get away with one or two grievous sins temporarily for a time because a person cannot lose salvation. This is dangerous because once a person thinks they can commit grievous sin for a short amount of time and be saved, then they will think they can do these kinds of sins all the time. For the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked.
 
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Yes, but verse 19 tells us who they are....they are unbelievers. They never believed.

I have felt the Raw, Powerful, Almighty presence of God as His Spirit consumed me....leaving me gasping for breath by His Love and Peace alone. Do you think I can ever become an unbeliever after this? Let me assure you, it is impossible. God would NEVER grant me such an amazing experience, just to harden my heart and turn it against Him. Only a crazy God would do something like that.

True believers, they know that they will never, never turn from this Powerful, Almighty God, particularly when He shows them His Holy Terror, which I felt just before His Holy Peace and Love....all of which human words could never properly describe. Feeling that unearthly Holy Terror, I never thought I could be as obedient as I am. I am transparent because God is within me, Helping me to become exactly who he needs me to be so that I can continue to do the things that I am doing, and to continue to learn the things that He needs me to learn so that I can do these good things....and not on my own accord at all.

I obey not because I have to, but because I want to, desperately. I don't have to do nothing, for Jesus abolished the Law....I am totally free. But, now that I know for sure that I have been indwelt, it is made certain to me because I now do things that I only wished and prayed that I could do, which is to be a good, basic person. Finally, I am obeying and I work very hard, but that effort only seems as thought it is from me....but it is not. God is the fuel, I just can't always tell for the effort is always through my physical body. But I know that it is not me, for I was a very, very bad man unafraid of dangerous situations. I did many bad things, all the while thinking I was a saved human. While I wailed in grief and tears over the things I hated doing, the things I could not stop....they seem so silly to me now. That....is the Holy Spirit....and that work, those works from my body....I want no credit whatsoever.

That is how the Spirit works, conclusively, for it is my experience and story, in my life and I expect this until the day I die, but with enhancements.
 
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If you apply the fact (or notion, in this case) that the verses that you're using below are [not] describing a regenerate soul, then it would no longer be a plain teaching. But, if we applied the idea that these people were at one point saved, then of course, sin could separate us from God. But what we're saying is that there is a difference in understanding who these passages are referring to.

For example, someone earlier said that Ananias and Sapphira lost their salvation. That would only depend on if they had placed their Abraham-like faith into Jesus, who alone grants the Holy Spirit, who alone grants Eternal Life. I may be wrong, but I don't recall there ever being any indication that they held genuine faith in Christ. They may have thought that they were saved and acted upon a deceived heart, but the actions of selling a field could be done by any misguided pagan.

I suppose I should read the story for a refresher before posting. Sorry.

Not true. Ananias and Sapphira were a part of the church. They did not tell them to repent and accept Jesus. Their story continues from the end of Acts 4. Read Acts of the Apostles 4:32-37. All the church was in fear of what happened to them. This would not really matter if they were sinners outside the church.
 
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Yes, but verse 19 tells us who they are....they are unbelievers. They never believed.

No. You are not reading it right. Verse 19 was the example of people who fell as a warning to the current brethren or believers.

Verse 12 says TAKE HEED BRETHREN. It does not say take heed you men in the past.

12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. "

Verse 13 says to EXHORT ONE ANOTHER DAILY!!!!
 
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Not true. Ananias and Sapphira were a part of the church. They did not tell them to repent and accept Jesus. Their story continues from the end of Acts 4. Read Acts of the Apostles 4:32-37. All the church was in fear of what happened to them. This would not really matter if they were sinners outside the church.

They all called themselves believers, just as did [everyone] in Galatia and Corinth, but we know that's not true. So they called themselves believers, but did the author know everyone's hearts? Impossible, the author must write with a general understanding and cannot possibly point out in every written piece where there could be wolves in sheep's clothing. We already know that they are there. There is no 100% perfect and pure group of people.

They were in one mind regarding physical things....they weren't discussing their faith under this banner of unity. Just not enough info on those two deceivers who's spirit within was not in unity with the Spirit within other True Brethren.

Maybe they were saved? Who knows....and maybe God just wanted to use them as a frightening example to the rest of us, which has prevented tens of thousands from lying....though not my former Uncle and Elder. Poor, poor man....crazy man lied about the Holy Spirit and ruined my family over it. Sigh....:)
 
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