Do those believing in “grace only” fear the Lord?

BCsenior said:

You just don't seem to perceive what the NT says!

Click to expand...

It's you who doesn't seem to perceive what Jesus SAID about eternal security.

In John 10:28, He SAID: "I give them (believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish."

It couldn't be said any more clear than that.

GodsGrace101 said:

We must come to Jesus to have life.
The life is IN HIM.
Nothing new about that.

Click to expand...

To "come to Jesus" means to put one's FULL TRUST in His work on the cross on their behalf.

I'd be willing to speak more to you if we agreed firs on one thing:

WHY did Jesus come?
You said to save us.

Click to expand...

I showed that from Scripture.

So...
Did Jesus come here to save us?

Click to expand...

I showed that from Scripture.

or
Did Jesus come here to teach us how to get rewards in heaven?

Click to expand...

That comes after salvation. Not before.

This is the problem FG,,,I post a verse on how we could become lost after salvation....and YOU tell me it's about rewards and not salvation.

Click to expand...

Because there are NO verses about losing salvation, and you STILL haven't provided any.

And Jesus doesn't allow that notion by telling us that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. But it seems pretty obvious you have no respect for what He said.

[QUTOE]So the argument, as far as I'm concerned ends there since I don't believe the first premise....Jesus came to teach us how to get to be in heaven with God...He didn't go to the cross so we could get rewards in heaven.[/QUOTE]
Right. He went to the cross to pay the penalty for our sins.

How would YOU explain

Colossiand 1:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engagedin evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Click to expand...

First, notice the conditional clause introduced by the "if" in v.23. Normally, we find the "if" at the beginning of the conditional clause. However, in this instance, it FOLLOWS.

The RESULT of the condition of "continuing in the faith" is found in v.22.

v.22 says that we have been reconciled through the death of Christ, IN ORDER to "present us holy and blameless and beyond reproach".

However, He can ONLY do that IF we "continue in the faith.

So, rather than being any about how to stay saved, it's about God being able to present the believer holy and blameless, but only IF we continue in the faith.

BCsenior said:

Yes, IMO, the #1 reason why the Word came down
from heaven to walk on the earth for 33 years was
to FREE God's elect ...
from the power of sin, from being held captive by sin,
from being slaves of sin, etc.

Click to expand...

This is all covered in the 3 tenses of salvation.

Past tense: we have been saved from the penalty of sin; we have been justified

Present tense: we are saved from the power of sin; we are sanctified

Future tense: we will be saved from the presence of sin; we will be glorified

Because ...
Father God will NOT allow anyone in heaven who has any unrepented-of sin!

Click to expand...

Which verse supports your opinion?

BACs have been made FREE of the sin nature
... they NO longer have to sin!

Click to expand...

This only applies to eternity, NOT now, while we are on earth.

1 John 1:8,10
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

BACs have been chosen and called to co-operate with the precious Holy Spirit ... and strive to become victorious OVERCOMERS!

Click to expand...

Yes, we are even commanded to. But Paul clearly taught that the Christian life is a life of struggle between the Spirit and the flesh. Gal 5:17

Salvation is NOT a one-and-done! Salvation is a process!

Click to expand...

Well, it is a "one and done". But you are free to push your unbiblical agenda all you want.

What you fail to grasp is the Bible. Most of it, frankly.

BCsenior said:

Over the years, he has demonstrated that
he has no explanation for dozens of NT warnings,
except to say they refer to loss of rewards ...

Click to expand...

How is that NOT an explanation? And the Bible is full of verses that address rewards.

Maybe you're just ignorant of all of them.

whilst many of them obviously refer to eternal life!

Click to expand...

Opinion noted.

BCsenior said:

This post #75 of yours is a superior post indeed.

IMO, it is of the utmost importance that we
RECONCILE all of the NT verses re: eternal security.

What do you think of this solution? ...
---------------------------------------------------------------
IMO, this resolves the conflict amongst all the NT verses
concerning eternal security, i.e. OSAS ...vs… NO OSAS:
True saving belief = enduring faith–trust–obedience
+ good works + no habitual sinning
Those who “follow” Jesus “faithfully” are the BACs who
love Him enough to be “obedient” to His commandments!
---------------------------------------------------------------

Click to expand...

True saving belief...
This infers that there is a belief that is not true and not saving....WHO would this be, for example?

The only problem I have with your solution...which I personally agree with....is that we all seem to know someone that USED TO BE a believer and now is NO LONGER a believer....

I hear that they were never really saved to begin with. Is this just a way for us to explain to ourselves a thought that is too scary? That MAYBE one day WE will fall away from the faith?

Does the fact that it's possible mean it's probable?
Didn't Jesus Himself say we could fall away?
Luke 8:13

It seems to me that it's this falling away that is a big problem for many. I think I'll believe forever and can't imagine falling away...so for ME, it's not a scary thought.

FreeGrace2 said:

Why not, rather, just BELIEVE them?

Click to expand...

Because YOU, FG, only choose to believe the ones YOU personally agree with.

YOU do not believe the entire N.T.
You pick and choose the verse you like and that give you comfort.

Don't be falsely comforted, for God is a Great God and sin will not enter into heaven. And what YOU preach could cause some weak Christians to sin believing there is no consequence.
Revelation 21:27

BCsenior said:

Over the years, he has demonstrated that
he has no explanation for dozens of NT warnings,
except to say they refer to loss of rewards ...
whilst many of them obviously refer to eternal life!

So, why does anyone bother arguing with him?

It is because they do not understand evangelism.
E.G. Jesus said to present the Truth, and if they reject it,
shake the dust off your feet and go somewhere else.

Click to expand...

Yes, I agree. I've known FG for over 3 years now and the only explanation is that verses he does not like are about rewards and not salvation,,,,as if Paul and Peter and all the other missionaries died for rewards and not for person's salvation.

I speak to him because there are persons reading along and THEY might make posts useful...even if the other member doesn't. Someone MUST present the truth...even when it's out of our comfort zone.

A false sense of security is very dangerous when it comes to our eternal soul.

OTOH, knowing the dangers keeps us safe.

FreeGrace2 said:

How is that NOT an explanation? And the Bible is full of verses that address rewards.

Maybe you're just ignorant of all of them.


Opinion noted.

Click to expand...

Are you going to explain Colossians 1:21-23?

FreeGrace2 said:

To "come to Jesus" means to put one's FULL TRUST in His work on the cross on their behalf.


I showed that from Scripture.


I showed that from Scripture.


That comes after salvation. Not before.


Because there are NO verses about losing salvation, and you STILL haven't provided any.

And Jesus doesn't allow that notion by telling us that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. But it seems pretty obvious you have no respect for what He said.

So the argument, as far as I'm concerned ends there since I don't believe the first premise....Jesus came to teach us how to get to be in heaven with God...He didn't go to the cross so we could get rewards in heaven.
Right. He went to the cross to pay the penalty for our sins.


First, notice the conditional clause introduced by the "if" in v.23. Normally, we find the "if" at the beginning of the conditional clause. However, in this instance, it FOLLOWS.

The RESULT of the condition of "continuing in the faith" is found in v.22.

v.22 says that we have been reconciled through the death of Christ, IN ORDER to "present us holy and blameless and beyond reproach".

However, He can ONLY do that IF we "continue in the faith.

So, rather than being any about how to stay saved, it's about God being able to present the believer holy and blameless, but only IF we continue in the faith.

Click to expand...

Just saw this.
So what happens IF we do NOT continue in the faith?
Can we enter into heaven if we are NOT presented holy and blameless and beyond reproach to God Almighty?

GodsGrace101 said:

True saving belief...
This infers that there is a belief that is not true and not saving....WHO would this be, for example?

The only problem I have with your solution...which I personally agree with....is that we all seem to know someone that USED TO BE a believer and now is NO LONGER a believer....

Click to expand...

Jesus addressed this, in the parable of the soils:
"Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

What Jesus didn't say is "in time of testing they lost their salvation".

The "falling away" is in reference to "believing for a while".

One "falls away" when one ceases to believe.

I hear that they were never really saved to begin with.

Click to expand...

You hear that from people who are quite unfamiliar with God's word.

Is this just a way for us to explain to ourselves a thought that is too scary? That MAYBE one day WE will fall away from the faith?

Click to expand...

Why wouldn't anyone be susceptible to it? Where does God promise that none of His children will cease to believe?

Does the fact that it's possible mean it's probable?

Click to expand...

No.

Didn't Jesus Himself say we could fall away?
Luke 8:13

Click to expand...

Exactimundo.

It seems to me that it's this falling away that is a big problem for many.

Click to expand...

It should be a problem for everyone.

I think I'll believe forever and can't imagine falling away...so for ME, it's not a scary thought.

Click to expand...

But since you have no idea of what the future holds, how can you be so sure that some horrible event won't shake or shatter your own faith?

Charles Templeton was a seasoned evangelist who mentored a young Billy Graham, when he first became an evangelist. They toured Europe together in 1947, even rooming together. Yet, CT ultimately did lose his faith. All because he couldn't reconcile the measurements of science with the young earth theory, which was (and still is) being taught as "gospel truth".

Before he lost his faith, he had led many thousands to faith in Christ.

None of us can say with certainty what we will do or not do in the future.

But I know one thing, I know who holds the future. And I know who holds me in His hand.

GodsGrace101 said:

Because YOU, FG, only choose to believe the ones YOU personally agree with.

Click to expand...

Do you really NOT understand what you are clearly insinuating? That there are verses that directly contradict other verses. That is just sloppy thinking, imo.

YOU do not believe the entire N.T.

Click to expand...

That is one of the most ignorant and arrogant claims I've ever seen. You have no idea about what you claim.

You pick and choose the verse you like and that give you comfort.

Click to expand...

Oh, as if I'm comforted by verses that promise eternal security but not comforted by the verses that promise loss of salvation.

That is worse than ridiculous. How can you not see your glaring error?

Don't be falsely comforted, for God is a Great God and sin will not enter into heaven.

Click to expand...

EXACTLY! Which is why, at physical death, we LEAVE our body of corruption, and will receive a RESURRECTION BODY. Didn't you know that?

But don't EVER tell me that my comfort in eternal security, which Jesus very plainly and clearly taught, is false. That is blasphemy of the highest level.

And what YOU preach could cause some weak Christians to sin believing there is no consequence.
Revelation 21:27

Click to expand...

Unless you can point to ANY post where I EVER said such garbage about "no consequence", please just admit that I NEVER EVER said such a thing.

I'm the only one who has been teaching the biblical view of God's PAINFUL DISCIPLINE (Heb 12:11) and loss of great eternal reward (2 John 8), including reigning with Christ (2 Tim 2:12).

I can't figure out why there is so much dishonesty among the Arminians, or is it just denseness through the skull.

In spite of my repeated teaching about God's discipline and loss of significant reward, I continue to see such stupid claims that eternal security means "no consequence". Far from it.

So, which camp are you in:
1. stupid camp
2. lying camp

It's one or the other. Hopefully, not both.

GodsGrace101 said:

Yes, I agree. I've known FG for over 3 years now and the only explanation is that verses he does not like are about rewards and not salvation

Click to expand...

You're going to just have to STOP your lying about how I explain any verse. Since NONE of your so-called "loss of salvation" verses even mentions 'salvation' or 'loss of', you have no basis for judging my views.

I've proven the FACT that rewards ARE earned by behavior, and can be lost. So knock it off.

,,,,as if Paul and Peter and all the other missionaries died for rewards and not for person's salvation.

Click to expand...

Huh? Where do you get the idea that someone can die for someone else's salvation?

You make a lot of wild claims, but NEVER back them up with clear verses. For a reason.

I speak to him because there are persons reading along and THEY might make posts useful...even if the other member doesn't. Someone MUST present the truth...even when it's out of our comfort zone.

Click to expand...

I am hopeful that anyone reading for information will see your indefensible views and dishonest treatment of the views of those in opposition to your views.

A false sense of security is very dangerous when it comes to our eternal soul.

Click to expand...

Exactly right!! And I'll give you a false sense of security all right.

Those who believe that they will make it to heaven by their own efforts and behavior, such as yourself.

Your view of losing salvation comes down to this one principle. Heaven is for those who earn it. Good luck with that. And I don't even believe in luck. But I do know God's plan of salvation for humans. Unlike yourself.

OTOH, knowing the dangers keeps us safe.

Click to expand...

It's called a false sense of security.

In your view, you are secure by your own efforts.

GodsGrace101 said:

Are you going to explain Colossians 1:21-23?

Click to expand...

I did, in post #102

GodsGrace101 said:

Just saw this.
So what happens IF we do NOT continue in the faith?

Click to expand...

I explained that also. If we do NOT continue in the faith, God cannot "present us holy and blameless".

Can we enter into heaven if we are NOT presented holy and blameless and beyond reproach to God Almighty?

Click to expand...

I am just amazed at how you "read" Scripture, and twist it all out of shape.

Paul was speaking about our lives ON EARTH. Haven't you seen all the commands for believers to be holy and blameless? Eph 1:4 tells us that we were chosen TO BE holy and blameless.

What do you make of that?

It is apparent that you are unfamiliar with "positional truth", which refers to all the things given to believers on the basis of having believed and being put into union with Christ. Eph 1 and 2 repeatedly use the terms "in Christ", "in Him" to describe this union with Christ.

Based on our having believed, we have Christ's righteousness IMPUTED to us. Do you know what that means?

Here's some homework. From the KJV: Rom 4:11, 22-24, James 2:23

It's hard to get through to these people. People who are blinded can't seem to comprehend the truth. They don't understand our new spirit CAN'T sin.

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." - 1 John 3:9

Our new spirit, when we get born again, can't commit sin... Our new man is the one going to heaven, not our flesh. Our flesh isn't going to heaven, and our flesh can give into sin after getting saved. Are we to try to crucify the flesh? Yes. Are we to try to walk in his ways? Yes. But we will NEVER be sinless, it is simply impossible. God can deliver you from sins, and sanctify you. But again you will never be sinless. We still live in the flesh. But our spirit cannot commit sin, and our spirit is SEALED and is going to heaven for eternity. We receive the holy spirit by believing that Jesus Christ died for our sins, not by doing works or not sinning. This is basic biblical principles and people refuse to understand it. Let go of your pride and follow the gospel, your works don't save you. Jesus alone saved you. And I am afraid you won't go to heaven if you don't believe that and you will be one of those people who says "Lord, Lord didn't we perform many WORKS in your name"? And Jesus will say he never knew you... You have to believe in the gospel of grace. Jesus Christ is the narrow way. Maybe some of you are just deceived temporarily, or you babies in Christ not quite getting it... But this is important.

Also you guys seem to forget God is like a parent, the perfect holy parent.... Will a parent kill or give up on their child if they disobey them? No. Just like God, the perfect parent, won't throw us in hell if we disobey him. But instead he will discipline us and work on us to grow in him. He's never giving up on us. You guys have some distorted views on who God is and how he treats his children. You believe his wrath to those who reject him apply to his own children... And that is very dangerous to believe that. Disobedience leads to earthly consequences and discipline by God. People who get saved would want to obey God because they genuinely love him for his grace and love towards them, not out of fear of going to hell...

BCsenior said:

So, how do you explain the whole passage?

“Little children, let no one deceive you.
He who practices righteousness is righteous,
just as He is righteous … In this the children of God
and the children of the devil are manifest:
Whoever does NOT practice righteousness
is NOT of God, NOR is he who does
NOT love his brothers/sisters.” (1 John 3:7-10)

If it is NOT possible for a BAC to sin,
then why all of the many warnings in the NT
(not to mention the many of Jesus in the gospels).

If a BAC does NOT practice righteousness,
he/she is a child of the devil.

If a BAC does NOT love his/her fellow BACs,
he/she is a child of the devil.

And to dumb-down this even further ...
A BAC who is a child of the devil is UNSAVED.

P.S. You can forget the difference
between soul and spirit.

Click to expand...

You're still not getting it are you? NONE are righteous, no not one. That's why we need Jesus. So how do we go to heaven if we aren't righteous? How does one become righteous?

Through Christ!

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
Romans 10:4

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"
Philippians 3:9, KJV

We are made righteous through faith in Jesus. Anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus is not righteous, and they will perish because none are righteous without Jesus. Those who practice unrighteousness are literally doing it by not believing in Jesus, who can make them righteous... Not believing in Jesus is practicing unrighteousness... How can you not see that? Not by committing specific sins isn't what determines your righteousness... Please read the bible AS A WHOLE in context. If you don't believe in Jesus you are declared unrighteous because no one is righteous without him as we are all sinners and if we are bound to the perfect moral law of God we would all die without Christ...

If you are not practicing righteousness by believing Jesus has saved you from your sins alone, not you are saving yourself too... You are the one who will perish as well and you are being deceived. How you think this is about sinning baffles me. Scripture is clear how to obtain righteousness. We are made righteous through Jesus Christ alone.