Do we choose God does He choose us or both

What is a Calvinist?

"DJ" said:

What is a Calvinist?

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Hi! There are a bunch of resources in the general part of the Semper Reformanda forum. Other then that you might find this helpful:

What is Calvinism and is it biblical?

Answer: The five points of Calvinism can be summarized by the acronym TULIP. T stands for total depravity, U for unconditional election, L for limited atonement, I for irresistible grace, and P for perseverance of the saints. Here are the definitions and Scripture references Calvinists use to defend their beliefs:

What is Calvinism and is it biblical? What are the five points of Calvinism?

Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).

Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.

Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).

Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).

Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).

While all these doctrines have a biblical basis, many people reject all or some of them. So-called “four-point Calvinists” accept Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints as biblical doctrines. Man is definitely sinful and incapable of believing in God on his own. God elects people based on His will alone – election is not based on any merit in the person chosen. All those whom God has chosen will come to faith. All those who are truly born-again will persevere in their faith. As for Limited Atonement, however, four-point Calvinists believe that atonement is unlimited, arguing that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just for the sins of the elect. “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Other verses in opposition to limited atonement are John 1:29; 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:6; and 2 Peter 2:1.

The five-point Calvinists, however, see problems with four-point Calvinism. First, they argue, if Total Depravity is true, then Unlimited Atonement cannot possibly be true because, if Jesus died for the sins of every person, then whether or not His death is applicable to an individual depends on whether or not that person “accepts” Christ. But as we have seen from the above description of Total Depravity, man in his natural state has no capacity whatsoever to choose God, nor does he want to. In addition, if Unlimited Atonement is true, then hell is full of people for whom Christ died. He shed His blood in vain for them. To the five-point Calvinist, this is unthinkable. Please note: this article is only a brief summary of the five points of Calvinism. For a more in-depth look, please visit the following pages: Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints.

"DJ" said:

What is a Calvinist?

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Wow this thread goes way back to 2013, my son was not quite a year old, and he has almost completed kindergarten now! My how time flies, anyway, I thought you might be interested in a couple of links, one is basically a library of resources pertaining to your question, the other is a link to one resource from the library of resources.

What is Calvinism Library

Calvinism Fact Sheet

I thought about long quotations from C.H. Spurgeon and B.B. Warfield, but decided links for further research to be more helpful. Take your time, there's no rush. God bless you for asking, may He help you in studying these important doctrines. Sola Deo Gloria!

I wanted to point something out from the guidelines, I think it allows non-Calvinists to post but only under the condition of:

• Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of the Reformed Confessions are considered off topic. You may debate Reformed and Calvinistic doctrines and talk about other doctrines, but do not promote other doctrines.

The way I get it, if someone wanted to talk about what Calvinists believe and they are just curious, no big, they are kind of a guest of the forum. Calvinists come on here to escape the bustle and drama of common forums like General Theology where we can be taken to task. I don't think those who are not Calvinists are strictly forbidden but they can't bust in here and challenge Calvinism. If you being contentious about it, you got to go.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Apologetic_Warrior said:

I didn't know Calvinists believe God makes us accept Him. That's a new one to me. Praise God He pulls us kicking and screaming....except that's not exactly accurate.

Calvinists believe it is both, however Calvinists believe that God first chose us from eternity, before the foundation of the world. Calvinists also believe, because a person is able or has the ability to choose God, a supernatural work of God the Holy Spirit the work of regeneration by God alone must take place where God also replaces the dead faith with living faith, the heart of stone for a heart of flesh, and after the person has become a new creation (Gal 6:15) all things have become new (2 Cor 5:17), then a person chooses to repent, confesses and submits to Christ as Lord of their life, because the call is effectual, it is "irresistible". So far as resisting is concerned, that is all a person dead in sins and trespasses can do, is to resist because that which is flesh is flesh, and the nature of the flesh is to resist the Spirit. If God did not intervene by providence in the case of fallen humanity, none could accept Him. If God had not chosen us first (election) from eternity, and left it up to mankind to choose (elect) himself, none would choose Him, because of the condition of mankind, neither could any persevere without the providence, grace, and tender mercies of God. To God, we are but children, and just as parents must intervene for the good and safety of a child, so God must intervene also, and He has every right as Creator to do as He pleases, which we all struggle with at times.

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I wanted to ask you about something AW, I know your pretty well read. My view might be a little different, I think God decided before the foundation of the world, that all who would be saved would be made the righteousness of God in Christ. It's just, I don't think he had a list, I've kind of struggled with this for the last couple of years. Not really sure how to approach the subject but Calvinism is one of the few systematic theologies that is not only candid in it's beliefs and doctrines, but I find nothing objectionable and I've always identified as Calvinist. I was reading somewhere that while the Calvinist believes it's all predetermined other views emphasis more what the individual was predestined for rather then who the elect are. What I see in Paul's doctrinal discussion in Ephesians 1 and 2 is a kind of hyperbole, that God chose him before the foundation of the world. This, I think would have been common among the Jews, when they couldn't find the words to make a strong enough statement.

I'd rather be a compromised Calvinist then just about anything else, that's the truth. I guess if I find out this is some kind of a deal breaker I'll have to be a theological orphan. But seriously, it seems like a delicate question, I was wondering what you thought about it.

Grace and peace,
Mark

mark kennedy said:

I wanted to ask you about something AW, I know your pretty well read. My view might be a little different, I think God decided before the foundation of the world, that all who would be saved would be made the righteousness of God in Christ. It's just, I don't think he had a list, I've kind of struggled with this for the last couple of years. Not really sure how to approach the subject but Calvinism is one of the few systematic theologies that is not only candid in it's beliefs and doctrines, but I find nothing objectionable and I've always identified as Calvinist. I was reading somewhere that while the Calvinist believes it's all predetermined other views emphasis more what the individual was predestined for rather then who the elect are. What I see in Paul's doctrinal discussion in Ephesians 1 and 2 is a kind of hyperbole, that God chose him before the foundation of the world. This, I think would have been common among the Jews, when they couldn't find the words to make a strong enough statement.

I'd rather be a compromised Calvinist then just about anything else, that's the truth. I guess if I find out this is some kind of a deal breaker I'll have to be a theological orphan. But seriously, it seems like a delicate question, I was wondering what you thought about it.

Grace and peace,
Mark

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Brother Mark, I know you enjoy listening to Dr. MacArthur, I recommend listening to whatever sermons he might have included in the online GTY archives on Particular Redemption, the "list" doctrine. If you would like more resources, I can help lead you to them. God bless.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

Brother Mark, I know you enjoy listening to Dr. MacArthur, I recommend listening to whatever sermons he might have included in the online GTY archives on Particular Redemption, the "list" doctrine. If you would like more resources, I can help lead you to them. God bless.

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I've done a fair amount of that, both MacArthur and Sproul, never really heard them say anything about a list per se. Just wondering what you thought, no big.

mark kennedy said:

I've done a fair amount of that, both MacArthur and Sproul, never really heard them say anything about a list per se. Just wondering what you thought, no big.

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By list do you mean something like a list of individuals, as in God choosing individuals for salvation, before the foundation of the world?

Paidiske said:

Guys! Please!

As far as I can tell, neither of you are Calvinist. I've pointed out the SOP. It's now time for you to gracefully bow out.

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Hmm... I'm a member of a church that's four-point Calvinist in nature. Or is this forum only for the five-pointers? If the latter, I wonder if even Calvin himself would have qualified.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

By list do you mean something like a list of individuals, as in God choosing individuals for salvation, before the foundation of the world?

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Yea, I was under the impression that not all Calvinists agree with that exactly. I certainly have some reservations taking it that far even though I understand there is such a thing as God's omnipotence.

mark kennedy said:

Yea, I was under the impression that not all Calvinists agree with that exactly. I certainly have some reservations taking it that far even though I understand there is such a thing as God's omnipotence.

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Essentially all LBC Baptists and confessing Reformed folk are five point Calvinists. Certainly all confessing Churches with The Three Forms of Unity as standards are five point Calvinists because one of the three standards is the Canons of Dort. However I am positive these Churches and Presbyterian Churches have people who may have issues with one of the five points for whatever reason but are friendly to Calvinism, perhaps finding more to agree with, than others. There are debates about whether or not John Calvin himself whom Calvinism is named after could be considered a "five pointer" himself, and the debate would be on limited atonement/particular redemption. I've participated in the past in this debate arguing Calvin would have been a five pointer, but I've long moved on from that tiring debate. To sum up my overall thought, even the greatest of theological giants are prone to inconsistencies, blind spots if you will, and to revisions...his magnum opus, The Institutes, went through a number of changes. He was a fallible man like the rest of us with his own set of struggles. I thank God for blessing His Church with John Calvin. We are so blessed with him and men similar to him, that we do not have to struggle alone or without help.

both

dogs4thewin said:

I believe it is both because He does not make us accept Him?

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We love Him because He loved us first ..In the Bible the word used is draw.. this is the same greek word used for using a bucket to get water from a well.. He draws us with His everlasting kindness

Jer31:3The LORD appeared to him from afar, saying, “I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness.

Hosea11:4
I led them with cords of kindness, with ropes of love; I lifted the yoke from their necks and bent down to feed them.


John 6:44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day…

stenerson said:

We are all born at enmity with God as children of wrath. Scripture clearly states that "there is none that seeks God." Scripture says that the "natural man can not discern the things of God", it says that we are
'blinded by the god of this world." (Satan)
Scripture tells us that we should pray for some that "God would grant them a spirit of repentance." Also that faith is a gift from God. Once you have true faith you don't lose it.
Read the 1st 2 chapters of Ephesians and it gives a clear picture of how people are saved.

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I love Pink

hedrick said:

I'm increasingly convinced that Scripture speaks of election in differing ways.

Most of the time, election is for service. God called Israel to bless the nations. He calls us in Christ to be the Church, his light to all mankind. He called Paul and other individuals. His call is prior to any response on our part and enables it.

The corporate calls can be rejected. Even one of the disciples ended up rejecting his call. Probably the individual can as well, though you can define that away by using the term election only for people who are finally saved. I think that's a mistake, though, as it turns election into election for privilege rather than election for responsibility. I think Christ saw his mission as calling people to the Kingdom, and holding them responsible for their response. So I'd rather see election as applying to everyone that is called.

But there's another side to it. If we think God is responsible for all of history (and I have to say that for me this is still an open question), then everything, even people's rejection of him, is part of his plan. I don't think Scripture speaks of this often, though there are a few places that do seem to reference it. I think Luther was wise in later life not to say much about it. We don't know God's perspective, and in trying to guess, we risk making God look demonic. I don't think God has a list of people who he sets out to damn, although I understand that there are good, logical reasons for concluding that he does. But I think it contradicts explicit statements that God doesn't want any to be lost. So I'd rather simply say that God's plan does include even human rejection, but resist going further than that.

I think Reformed have often been too quick in seeing every reference to election as referring to God's secret choice of who will be saved, when election refers to God calling a person or group to service, and holding them responsible for their response.

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I believe that God has chosen this He will save from the foundation of the earth.. and so yes that would mean by definition He also chose those He would not save.. He elected Israel to be His people.. He elected Mary to be the mother of Christ..

Paidiske said:

View attachment 254253
MOD HAT ON
This thread has had a clean.
May I remind you of this part of this forum's Statement of Purpose:
Non-Calvinist members are not allowed to post in this forum.
MOD HAT OFF​

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Thats a shame