What commandments is John talking about?

Tone · Mar 31, 2019

Revelation 14:12
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

Tone · Mar 31, 2019

We all know that we are justified by faith in Messiah. So, what do the commandments of Elohim have to do with anything? Shouldn't it say "they that [abolish] the commandments of God, and keep the faith of Jesus [instead]"? Isn't this more in line with the doctrine that many preach?

Lulav · Mar 31, 2019

The ones God gave in the Torah (instructions) that can be kept by the common man (not the priestly ones or ones that involve the Temple in some way which can't be kept right now.

trophy33 · Mar 31, 2019

The commandments given in the New Testament to followers of Jesus, logically.

"The faith of Jesus" seems to be a more mysterious one.

Tone · Mar 31, 2019

myst33 said:
The commandments given in the New Testament to followers of Jesus, logically.

"The faith of Jesus" seems to be a more mysterious one.

Revelation 12:17
"And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore."

Belief in Messiah gives us the desire and power to keep the commandments of God, as His Spirit abides in us.

trophy33 · Mar 31, 2019

Tone said:
Revelation 12:17
Belief IN Messiah gives us the desire and power to keep the commandments of God, as His Spirit abides in us.

The text in your OP does not say "faith IN Jesus", but "faith OF Jesus".

Tone · Mar 31, 2019

Luke 2:25-32
"Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27 And he came in the Spirit into the temple, and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the Law, 28 he took him up in his arms and blessed God and said,

29 “Lord, now you are letting your servant depart in peace,
according to your word;
30 for my eyes have seen your salvation
31 that you have prepared in the presence of all peoples,
32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles,
and for glory to your people Israel.”

This man was righteous as he believed in Messiah and devout in his observance of the Law. There is no contradiction here.

Tone · Mar 31, 2019

myst33 said:
The text in your OP does not say "faith IN Jesus", but "faith OF Jesus".

Here's some other translations:

"This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus." (NIV)

"This means that God's holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus." (NLT)

"Here is the patience of The Holy Ones, those who keep the commands of God and the faith of Yeshua.” (Aramaic)

St_Worm2 · Mar 31, 2019

Tone said:
Revelation 14:12
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

Hi Tone, the Apostle John also tells us this in his 1st Epistle:

1 John 2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Ours is a gracious salvation, yes, which means that God's choice to save us is "unmerited" .. by us anyway, but that doesn't mean that He chooses to save us willy-nilly. Rather (as you know) Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, so our salvation, from the moment we first believe all the way to Glory, is merited for us by Him, by what He did for us when He lived among us.

Our salvation, then, does not depend upon anything that 'we' do :preach:

Rather, we are able to/choose to* keep His commandments because we (already) know Him, because we have (already) been saved by Him, because we have (already) been made "His workmanship", because He has (already) made us into wholly "new creatures" in Christ :amen:

Our choice to please God by keeping His commandments, by living holy, rather than sinful lives, by doing good deeds, etc., is the result or fruit of our salvation, not the cause (nor are any of these things we do the cause of our "remaining" saved).

We are saved, by grace.

--David

Romans 11
6 If it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

*(please take note of the Calvin quote in my signature line below, because if we claim to be saved, but our lives never demonstrate the fact that we are, then chances are VERY good that our "claim" amounts to nothing more than that )

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Mar 31, 2019

Tone said:
Revelation 14:12
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

The 10 commandments and the 2 greatest commandments.

HTacianas · Mar 31, 2019

Tone said:
Revelation 14:12
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

That is meant as a polemic against the gnostics of the time who practiced what is known today as antinomianism. There were groups at the time who taught that the entirety of the Jewish law was abolished and that they could behave themselves in any manner they wanted to and still be saved as long as they had faith. A number of writers of the new testament spoke against them:

Jas 2:19 - You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

Jas 2:20 - But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

And again:

Jde 1:4 -...They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Gregory Thompson · Mar 31, 2019

Tone said:
Revelation 14:12
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

The Faith of Jesus verbiage implies it is the Law of Liberty, as Jesus has done for you, so do for others.

SkyWriting · Mar 31, 2019

myst33 said:
The text in your OP does not say "faith IN Jesus", but "faith OF Jesus".

The original text says.... the / Faith / Jesus (below.)

The original text uses block logic which places concepts next to each other, not necessarily in linear order. We use linear logic.

2Here is a call for the endurance of the saints
who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

FIRESTORM314 · Mar 31, 2019

Tone said:
Revelation 12:17
"And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore."

Belief in Messiah gives us the desire and power to keep the commandments of God, as His Spirit abides in us.

and blessed are those who obey the prophecy written in this scroll.
REV 22:7

SkyWriting · Mar 31, 2019

FIRESTORM314 said:
and blessed are those who obey the prophecy written in this scroll.
REV 22:7

Contemporary English Version
Remember, I am coming soon! God will bless everyone who pays attention to the message of this book.

Lulav · Mar 31, 2019

myst33 said:
The commandments given in the New Testament to followers of Jesus, logically.

"The faith of Jesus" seems to be a more mysterious one.

But that's not what it says:

"Here is the patience of the saints:
here are they that keep the commandments of God,
and the faith of Jesus."

It is specific in speaking of the commandments of God which are the same that Jesus followed.

The Faith in Jesus is that he was God's promised salvation.

FIRESTORM314 · Mar 31, 2019

SkyWriting said:
Contemporary English Version
Remember, I am coming soon! God will bless everyone who pays attention to the message of this book.

REVELATION 22:9 CONTEMPORARY ENGLISH VERSION
But the angel said, Don't do that! I am a servant, just like you. I am the same as a follower or a prophet or anyone else who obeys what is written in this book. God is the one you should worship.

FIRESTORM314 · Mar 31, 2019

FIRESTORM314 said:
REVELATION 22:9 CONTEMPARY ENGLISH VERSION
But the angel said, Don't do that! I am a servant, just like you. I am the same as a follower or a prophet or anyone else who obeys what is written in this book. God is the one you should worship.

Just to provoke some thoughts about what it means to keep/obey the words of the book

Halbhh · Mar 31, 2019

Lulav said:
But that's not what it says:

"Here is the patience of the saints:
here are they that keep the commandments of God,
and the faith of Jesus."

It is specific in speaking of the commandments of God which are the same that Jesus followed.

The Faith in Jesus is that he was God's promised salvation.

And all the commands from Jesus to us -- are all from God.

John 12 NIV
It's best from verse 44, and leading to this:

49For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

SkyWriting · Mar 31, 2019

FIRESTORM314 said:
Just to provoke some thoughts about what it means to keep/obey the words of the book

If the translation into english was perfectly understood, there would only be one.

New International Version
all who keep the words of this scroll

New Living Translation
who obey what is written

English Standard Version
who keep the words of this book

Berean Literal Bible
those keeping the words of this book

New American Standard Bible
who heed the words of this book

King James Bible
which keep the sayings of this book

Contemporary English Version
who obeys what is written in this book

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
who observe these words of this book

GOD'S WORD® Translation
follow the words in this book

Douay-Rheims Bible
them that keep the words of the prophecy of this book

Weymouth New Testament
those who are mindful of the teachings of this book

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