Have We Ever Obeyed God?

Tree of Life said:

Have you ever obeyed any one of God's commands?

I think the correct answer is "Yes, relatively speaking. And no."

Yes, relatively speaking - By God's grace we have, relatively speaking, obeyed. Hopefully we've been faithful to our spouses, we've loved our neighbors, we've been honest, we've not murdered, etc... But we all know that even our best obedience is imperfect.

No - Since God's laws don't just touch on our external behavior, but also have jurisdiction over our thoughts, desires, intentions, affections, and goals, and since God's law requires absolute perfection in all of these areas, we have actually never truly obeyed any of God's commands. Even our belief is riddled with unbelief and our obedience is riddled with disobedience.

If you think that you have ever truly obeyed God you either don't understand the high demands of God's law (see the Sermon on the Mount) or you don't understand the depths of your own sin.

Thank God that our relationship with him is not based on our obedience, but on his grace in Christ!

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I never understood how you (in general) believe that every human being is selfish in his actions. I work with a Pro-life organization and there are atheists there who believe in taking care both of the unborn and born babies, much more than a lot of Christian politicians who identify as "Pro-life" but do nothing.

Tree of Life said:

Romans 3 just about sums it up for me. This doesn't mean that people are as wicked and selfish as they can possibly be. But it does mean that every person, no matter how good they seem compared to others, falls desperately short of God's glory. Do you not believe that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God?

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That does not mean total depravity as I guess this thread is about.

Tree of Life said:

If you think that you have ever truly obeyed God you either don't understand the high demands of God's law (see the Sermon on the Mount) or you don't understand the depths of your own sin.

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The scriptures state that many have obeyed God. I think you are conflating obedience and perfect obedience ...

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Tree of Life said:

What do you think that total depravity means?

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The Fall alters human nature so this one is slaved to sin and hates God.

Tree of Life said:

I admit that we have obeyed relatively speaking. But Jesus taught that God requires perfect obedience (Matthew 5:20, Matthew 5:48).

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But no christian teaches/believes that we are perfectly obedient. That is, indeed, the reason Jesus came ...

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Tree of Life said:

Then we may agree more than you think that we do! If we're never perfectly obeyed, then we've never truly obeyed in any meritorious sense. Our whole relationship with God is based on his grace.

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This is basic Christian teaching. Are you trying to make some other point ?

Maybe a better (and fairer) question would be ... do you know of any christians who teach other than this ?

Tree of Life said:

I admit that we have obeyed relatively speaking. But Jesus taught that God requires perfect obedience (Matthew 5:20, Matthew 5:48).

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To get 5:48 listen fully (put aside idea and listen in full)


43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect'"

Reminding of something?

Let's look at that other Love for enemies....

6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son.... "

There.

To do good to an enemy, to love them, is a perfect action.

A perfect action we cannot easily do unless we look to Christ, remembering what He did for us.

If we do remember Him, what He did for us, we can refrain from striking back, and do what is the perfect response of seeing them in love, and then acting from that.

To do that I have to admit I'm imperfect, just like my enemy.

And this last part, the little part, of admitting I'm imperfect -- that I did much the same as they are doing -- this is very easy for me! lol I'm knowing all too well how much I did the same probably not long ago! lol

(heh, maybe this is one good thing from the Lutheran church, which I've tended to just think of as just another church. They keep saying we are all sinners, lol)

Tree of Life said:

A more accurate picture, however, is that all of our words, thoughts, and deeds are contaminated by sin and even our most righteous acts may be condemned by God as disobedience.

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I believe this view to be extreme, else scripture would never say that any obeyed Him.

Tree of Life said:

(see the Sermon on the Mount)

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I note how Jesus starts His Sermon on the Mount with four things about how to be >

poor in spirit

meek

merciful

pure in heart

How to be, here, I would say, has to do with how our nature is because of how God's love has changed us > 1 John 4:17 < with us His children, God has already so succeeded in this, according to this scripture. Plus, Hebrews 12:4-14 guarantees how our Heavenly Father succeeds in correcting His children. So, yes His grace is succeeding in us, like this . . . more and more as we grow in Jesus > Galatians 4:19.

Tree of Life said:

Thank God that our relationship with him is not based on our obedience, but on his grace in Christ!

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But ones seem to think grace is God just staying at a distance and not judging us while we keep on being the wrong way and failing. But Hebrews 12:4-14 guarantees that because God loves us He corrects us the way Hebrews 12:4-14 shares. So, I now understand how grace is not only God loving us from some distance while we keep failing, but grace includes how God in us is succeeding > Philippians 2:13 > by the way, in the previous verse, notice how the Philippians became more and more obedient in Paul's absence. This was because it was God giving the increase to their obedience, because of God working in us "both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (in Philippians 2:13)

Tree of Life said:

If we're never perfectly obeyed, then we've never truly obeyed in any meritorious sense.

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A child when born does not perfectly obey his or her parents. But then the baby grows and becomes able to relate with and obey the child's mother and father. And if the child is growing and developing well with good parenting, the child becomes more and more able to obey the child's parents, in a loving and sharing relationship.

It is like this with God > this is not only about what label we put on our relationship, or what status or merit we have, but we are growing in love so more and more we are sharing personally in love with our Father and one another as Jesus family.

Our whole relationship with God is based on his grace.

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Of course, it is all about His grace. But do you mean grace has God just staying at a distance loving us and not condemning us while we keep failing?

Or, do you mean grace which is His favor which has God in us working to correct us and mature us in Jesus, like is guaranteed by Hebrews 12:4-14 and 1 John 4:17?

Tree of Life said:

I believe many Christians think and teach that we do completely obey God sometimes. They view our imperfect obedience as a matter of sometimes we obey and sometimes we don't. A more accurate picture, however, is that all of our words, thoughts, and deeds are contaminated by sin and even our most righteous acts may be condemned by God as disobedience.

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That's right -- I can agree fully as you used the word 'may', since at moments the Spirit can act instead of us, in our place, as it were, for us.

But from ourselves, on our own, our love is imperfect. I take that for granted. When Tim Keller (I think it was) wrote something or another along the lines of (if I remember it right) we cannot love God perfectly, my only objection was just that no one ought to think that means we are not to aim to try to love God as best we can, in our imperfect, less than full way. It's enough to give it what we got in the sense of not holding back our heart.

To give it all we have, however little, however 'imperfect'.

It's like the Widow's Two Pennies -- it's not much at all compared to Him, but the thing is it is all our heart -- we aren't holding back our heart against Him. We are cooperating.

update -- what com7fy8 said just above!

I thought of a metaphor that will greatly improve all I said already -- it's like we are little toddlers, and He is the Parent helping us walk.

If we take His hand, then we can begin to toddle forwards! So, looking to Christ, walking in the spirit, praying the prayer He gave us to pray, then I can begin to toddle in a way I could never on my own alone.

Tree of Life said:

No - Since God's laws don't just touch on our external behavior, but also have jurisdiction over our thoughts, desires, intentions, affections, and goals, and since God's law requires absolute perfection in all of these areas, we have actually never truly obeyed any of God's commands. Even our belief is riddled with unbelief and our obedience is riddled with disobedience.

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Try proving that from the Torah.

David Cabrera said:

That does not mean total depravity as I guess this thread is about.

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Weird, isn't it? When people say "total depravity", they don't mean "total" and they don't mean "depravity".

Unless they do, that is.