Should we judge people by the times they lived in?

The Barbarian said:

But we probably should remember, that in those years, there were men in Congress who were white nationalists, and in some states, the laws actually supported that despicable ideology.

Click to expand...

Yes and most were Democrats back then which is most unfortunate.

The Barbarian said:

LA Times Columnist: Remove John Wayne’s Name from Airport over 48-Year-Old Comments About White Supremacy
“With a lot of blacks, there’s quite a bit of resentment along with their dissent, and possibly rightfully so,” Wayne said. “But we can’t all of a sudden get down on our knees and turn everything over to the leadership of the blacks. I believe in white supremacy until the blacks are educated to a point of responsibility. I don’t believe in giving authority and positions of leadership and judgment to irresponsible people.”
LA Times Columnist: Remove John Wayne's Name from Airport over 48-Year-Old Comments About White Supremacy

From today's perspective, his words are truly disgusting. But we probably should remember, that in those years, there were men in Congress who were white nationalists, and in some states, the laws actually supported that despicable ideology.

Racism remains a serious problem in America. But this is a measure of how far we've come in the past 50 years. It's a good thing to have the discussion; and I'm receptive to his son's comment that we should consider how he treated people, in addition to the disgraceful statement he made.

Click to expand...

The same sentiments are being expressed today, although not in such a direct way.

The Barbarian said:

LA Times Columnist: Remove John Wayne’s Name from Airport over 48-Year-Old Comments About White Supremacy
“With a lot of blacks, there’s quite a bit of resentment along with their dissent, and possibly rightfully so,” Wayne said. “But we can’t all of a sudden get down on our knees and turn everything over to the leadership of the blacks. I believe in white supremacy until the blacks are educated to a point of responsibility. I don’t believe in giving authority and positions of leadership and judgment to irresponsible people.”
LA Times Columnist: Remove John Wayne's Name from Airport over 48-Year-Old Comments About White Supremacy

From today's perspective, his words are truly disgusting. But we probably should remember, that in those years, there were men in Congress who were white nationalists, and in some states, the laws actually supported that despicable ideology.

Racism remains a serious problem in America. But this is a measure of how far we've come in the past 50 years. It's a good thing to have the discussion; and I'm receptive to his son's comment that we should consider how he treated people, in addition to the disgraceful statement he made.

Full Disclosure: I grew up in an environment with lots of racist people. My father often spoke of black people in disrespectful ways. But I noticed that when he was dealing with them, he was never disrespectful to them. And then I discovered something much later.

When a black guy he knew was down on his luck, Dad helped him buy a car that he needed for work. And in those days, Dad didn't have a lot of money himself. He never told anyone but the family he helped remembered. So there's that. I think that, if Wayne was like my Dad, then a discussion of that apparent contradiction is worthwhile, but I'd give him a pass as far as his name on the airport is concerned.

Click to expand...

This seems to be an in vogue thing these days, digging up something someone said decades ago, then trying to erase them from history.

How far is this going to go? everyone has said things about other people that was not the truth.

redleghunter said:

Yes and most were Democrats back then which is most unfortunate.

Click to expand...

Back then yes, but now? Not so much.

redleghunter said:

Yes and most were Democrats back then which is most unfortunate.

Click to expand...

You didn't address the real issue Barbarian wrote in his OP about judging people in the times they lived in. You just singled out a specific phrase to take a political potshot at Democrats. Talk about judging people in the times they lived in. Is it fair to assume you agree with that sentiment?

Queller said:

Back then yes, but now? Not so much.

Click to expand...

I've been involved in NDN political and social justice activism for nearly three decades now and I can attest to the fact of my experiences that it has been conservative Republicans, not liberal Democrats, who have been consistently opposed to my efforts of standing up for political or social justice issues that were NDN and other minority related. It's been the same with LGBTQ rights and equality too.

The Barbarian said:

LA Times Columnist: Remove John Wayne’s Name from Airport over 48-Year-Old Comments About White Supremacy
“With a lot of blacks, there’s quite a bit of resentment along with their dissent, and possibly rightfully so,” Wayne said. “But we can’t all of a sudden get down on our knees and turn everything over to the leadership of the blacks. I believe in white supremacy until the blacks are educated to a point of responsibility. I don’t believe in giving authority and positions of leadership and judgment to irresponsible people.”
LA Times Columnist: Remove John Wayne's Name from Airport over 48-Year-Old Comments About White Supremacy

From today's perspective, his words are truly disgusting. But we probably should remember, that in those years, there were men in Congress who were white nationalists, and in some states, the laws actually supported that despicable ideology.

Racism remains a serious problem in America. But this is a measure of how far we've come in the past 50 years. It's a good thing to have the discussion; and I'm receptive to his son's comment that we should consider how he treated people, in addition to the disgraceful statement he made.

Full Disclosure: I grew up in an environment with lots of racist people. My father often spoke of black people in disrespectful ways. But I noticed that when he was dealing with them, he was never disrespectful to them. And then I discovered something much later.

When a black guy he knew was down on his luck, Dad helped him buy a car that he needed for work. And in those days, Dad didn't have a lot of money himself. He never told anyone but the family he helped remembered. So there's that. I think that, if Wayne was like my Dad, then a discussion of that apparent contradiction is worthwhile, but I'd give him a pass as far as his name on the airport is concerned.

Click to expand...

It doesn't surprise me that John Wayne would say something like that considering what he said about Native Americans. I don't think his comments should be removed from public view though because I think his words should remain a reminder of what America was really like back in his day. I don't know about judging him by the times he lived in because white supremacy was so rampant in his day.

However, I think his words should be used as an educational tool for younger people and children. I think the younger generations of Americans should be reminded what America was like back his day. America wasn't founded on freedom, liberty and justice for all because not all men were endowed with unalienable rights. It took this country 188 years to finally grant minorities civil rights and equality.

The Barbarian said:

Wayne was a republican, and acted like one. He did a Donald Trump when he was drafted in WWII, but became a patriot later when it was personally safe to be so.

This isn't about his character. It's about whether or not we should judge him from a time when immorality of that sort was condoned by many people.

Click to expand...

Well, what do you know... John Wayne wasn't a Democrat and he still said what he said.

Shiloh Raven said:

I've been involved in NDN political and social justice activism for nearly three decades now and I can attest to the fact of my experiences that it has been conservative Republicans, not liberal Democrats, who have been consistently opposed to my efforts of standing up for political or social justice issues that were NDN and other minority related. It's been the same with LGBTQ rights and equality too.

Click to expand...

What is NDN? social justice does not exsist, taking from those that have worked hard, sacrificed, and made good decisions and are successful, and giving it to those who have not done those things is unjust, and counter productive. After all, only half the country pay's federal income tax.I

Hard work, sacrifice, self reliance, and making good decisions is the key to success, not stealing from the successful.

The saints certainly did, when they saw occasion to. Though he was somewhat singular in the directness of his attack on the institution itself, St. Gregory of Nyssa preached the following on slavery in his day (4th century AD):

‘I acquired slaves and slave girls.’ What is that you say? You condemn a person to slavery whose nature is free and independent, and in doing so you lay down a law in opposition to God, overturning the natural law established by him. For you subject to the yoke of slavery one who was created precisely to be a master of the earth, and who was ordained to rule by the creator, as if you were deliberately attacking and fighting against the divine command.

What price did you put on reason? How many obols did you pay as a fair price for the image of God? For how many staters have you sold the nature specially formed by God? ‘God said, “Let us make man in our image and likeness.”’

Other examples could include the story of St. Moses the Strong (d. 405), which involves racism from the Egyptian monks who didn't want to take spiritual counsel from a black man, but also correction when he was reinstated as their abbot due to his spiritual state being far purer and more laudable than that of his detractors.

We should all strive to be more like St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Moses the Strong, and less like John Wayne. As to what should happen with his public monuments like this airport, I'm in favor of leaving them up but also including some educational material, like maybe some plaques on the walls of the airport talking about where he stood on issues and how and why society changed from accepting such views to not accepting them, and why it is important that we not go back to thinking like he did when he said those things. I'm with Shiloh Raven in that I think if we just try to scrub our surroundings of any reference to this kind of thing, it's going to cause the reality of life to be forgotten. I know people ~10 years younger than me who apparently simply think that gay rights have always been more or less a given, and I can only guess it must be because they were too young to remember when (for instance) Don't Ask Don't Tell was the policy in the military (though that one got canceled relatively recently in 2011, so maybe they'd remember that if they're old enough; kids in the future won't, though!), Ellen Degeneres actually risked being fired from her TV show for coming out as gay on it, the Defense Of Marriage Act was recently signed, etc. And those are just examples from the very PC 1990s!

It's like the cliche says "Those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it." There's no better way to ensure it's not remembered than by erasing all evidence that it ever existed.

The Barbarian said:

That's actually mild, compared to some of the things we've heard from the extreme right, lately. Trump's win brought a lot of them out of the sewers and into the daylight.

Click to expand...

Ouch.

The point is, is there any truth to it. I'm guessing that more responsible attitudes and actions will help any community or demographic.

Given that John Wayne in the quote in question says he believes in white supremacy until the point where blacks are educated to a point of responsibility, I would say this isn't the most racist position I've heard. Did he support lynching or removing the black race from existence or did he simply hold to the older more colonial idea of educating the less fortunate races and raising them up?

As for the broader question of judging people of the past we need to put it into perspective. Is John Wayne on the same level as Ghenghis Khan? Is he on the same level as Hitler? Does he match the ferocious nature of Timur and his jihad? What of Spanish treatment of the native Mexicans? Is he as bad as Stalin or Mao and their efforts to advance communism? We don't seem to care if some of these figures are used on the public space yet they did far worse things than John Wayne ever did.

I'm willing to let John Wayne's comments be a sign of the times he lived in rather than something incredibly evil which deserves to be forgotten and scrubbed from the public record. Liberals ought be careful because if they follow the logic that if anyone in the past said something even slightly against our modern standards they will find themselves without a history. Even Jesus compared us Gentiles to dogs, yet I don't feel particularly angry towards Christ, I even agree with him.

The Barbarian said:

LA Times Columnist: Remove John Wayne’s Name from Airport over 48-Year-Old Comments About White Supremacy
“With a lot of blacks, there’s quite a bit of resentment along with their dissent, and possibly rightfully so,” Wayne said. “But we can’t all of a sudden get down on our knees and turn everything over to the leadership of the blacks. I believe in white supremacy until the blacks are educated to a point of responsibility. I don’t believe in giving authority and positions of leadership and judgment to irresponsible people.”
LA Times Columnist: Remove John Wayne's Name from Airport over 48-Year-Old Comments About White Supremacy

From today's perspective, his words are truly disgusting. But we probably should remember, that in those years, there were men in Congress who were white nationalists, and in some states, the laws actually supported that despicable ideology.

Racism remains a serious problem in America. But this is a measure of how far we've come in the past 50 years. It's a good thing to have the discussion; and I'm receptive to his son's comment that we should consider how he treated people, in addition to the disgraceful statement he made.

Full Disclosure: I grew up in an environment with lots of racist people. My father often spoke of black people in disrespectful ways. But I noticed that when he was dealing with them, he was never disrespectful to them. And then I discovered something much later.

When a black guy he knew was down on his luck, Dad helped him buy a car that he needed for work. And in those days, Dad didn't have a lot of money himself. He never told anyone but the family he helped remembered. So there's that. I think that, if Wayne was like my Dad, then a discussion of that apparent contradiction is worthwhile, but I'd give him a pass as far as his name on the airport is concerned.

Click to expand...

Well, for us judging individually on a personal level, which isn't the same as deciding on (re)naming of a airport (which is a collective group decision instead).... On the level of personal judging, we need to remember scriptures about judging, like John 7:24, Matthew 7:1-2, Luke 6:37. And further also the verses immediately after our daily prayer (and about what we pray for in it) in Mat Matthew 6.

As to the collective political choice of airport name, it's (symbolic, but) necessary to rename it due to how it offends some that have real grievances, to stop reinjuring.

The Barbarian said:

That's actually mild, compared to some of the things we've heard from the extreme right, lately. Trump's win brought a lot of them out of the sewers and into the daylight.

Click to expand...

Neo-Nazis, David Duke, Richard Spencer and his Unite the Right come to mind.

The Barbarian said:

Wayne was a republican, and acted like one. He did a Donald Trump when he was drafted in WWII, but became a patriot later when it was personally safe to be so.

This isn't about his character. It's about whether or not we should judge him from a time when immorality of that sort was condoned by many people.

Click to expand...

Thanks to the media anyone in public life can be tarred and feathered by the most innocuous mistakes of the past. If we were all so judged there wouldn't be enough trees to hang us all on.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

{snip}Liberals ought be careful because if they follow the logic that if anyone in the past said something even slightly against our modern standards they will find themselves without a history.

Click to expand...

That would 'some' liberals because I'm a liberal and I don't agree with removing his words from view, as I explained my opinion on the issue in my previous post. Believe or not, I don't always agree with other liberals and I doubt every single liberal who lives in America would always agree with me.