Did Jesus eat the Passover

Rodron · Feb 28, 2019

Some say the last supper was the Passover meal. It may appear that Matthew, Mark, and Luke have a differing account than John; some might say they oppose each other, but if you put each side by side and compare each section that they are writing about, we may witness the truth.
The Jewish day starts at sundown around 6pm and ends around 6pm. The night has 12 hours and the day has 12 hours, depending on the time of year. In the spring, it is close to 12 and 12. The dark/night is the start of the day and the first hour starts at sundown around 6pm the 12th hour of the night ends at sunrise around 6am, so the beginning hr. of light/day starts between 6am and 7am. Midnight is the 6th hour of dark and midday are the sixth hour of light. The third hour of light to us would be 9am and the sixth hour noon, 9th hour 3pm and 12th hour sundown or 6pm.

Passover day and the Feast of Unleavened Bread?

Passover day is always the 14th of the 1st month Nisan/Aviv regardless of the day of the week. It is set by the phases of the moon, and the feast of unleavened bread is the 15th-21st. It is seven days long with the first and the seventh day holy convocations, which are Sabbath days like the seventh day Sabbath, but you can prepare food to eat, the seventh day Sabbath no work.
Preparation day?

Because on the Sabbath, you cannot do any kind of work, the day before which is the 6th day or Friday is preparation day, because all cooking, any kind of chores, washing, all was done before sundown of the 6th day. There is also another preparation day; it is the preparation of the Passover the 14th because at sundown it is the 15th the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. The first and the seventh day of the feast are holy convocations. The 14th you must remove all leaven from the house; every inch of the house must be clean even the cracks in the floor, and any other work before sundown. The Passover sacrifice of the lamb is at the end of the 14th but this is a preparation day, regardless of what day of the week, it is the 14th of Nisan/Aviv every year. Some combine the eight days and call it The Feast of Passover and some The Feast of Unleavened Bread so for some the first day is the 14th. It helps to keep this in mind when we read the scriptures it will help the understanding the four gospels.

Where, when and how
Exodus 12:3-10 (KJV)
3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house. 4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: 6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. 7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. 9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. 10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

Exodus 12:29-31 (KJV)
29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. 30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead. 31 And he called for Moses and Aaron by night, and said, Rise up, and get you forth from among my people, both ye and the children of Israel; and go, serve the Lord, as ye have said.

Exodus 12:41-42 (KJV)
41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt. 42 It is a night to be much observed unto the Lord for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the Lord to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations.

Deuteronomy 16:1-3 (KJV)
And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians. 2Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the Lord thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the Lord shall choose to place his name there. 3 Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.

On the tenth day of the first month, they took up the lamb and held to the fourteenth (same day Jesus rode into Jerusalem).
The fourteenth day of the first month is the sacrifice of the Passover.
Sacrifice is at even, at the going down of the sun, any time after noon and before sunset.
It will be roasted and eaten in the place where God shall choose to place his name.
Nothing shall remain until morning and if any does, they were to burn it with fire.
Jerusalem was the place, and they could not leave Jerusalem until morning just like the first Passover, the people of Israel could not leave the house that had the blood on the door until morning after midnight.

They left Egypt the morning of the 15th and it probably was still dark when they started because Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in the night and told them to rise up and get forth from among my people.

They killed the Passover, put the blood on the doors, ate the Passover, left Egypt. They could not have killed the Passover at the beginning of the 14th, they would have to wait 24 hours before they left Egypt because they left on the 15th. The Passover sacrifice is on the 14th at even and is eaten on the night of the 15th with unleavened bread and bitter herbs, the first day of the seven-day feast, the day they left Egypt. It is a night to be much observed unto the Lord for bringing them out of the land of Egypt. (The Night of the 15th)

In the evening, Ex. 12:6 in the evening, in Hebrew is the hā·‘ar·bā·yim meaning between the evenings. Some believe that it is the time between sunset and dark, and some believe that it is when the sun starts going down afternoon till sunset.

The words hā·‘ar·bā·yim is in Exodus 12:6 in the evening 16:12 at even 29:39 at even 41 at even 30:8 at even. In Lev. 23:5 at even. In NUM. 9:3 at even 5 at even 11 at even 28:4 at even 8 at even. In 1 Chr. 23:30 at even. The different opinions on the meaning of between the evenings create controversy when the Passover lamb was killed and when it was eaten. Is it at the beginning of the 14th or the end of the 14th? This is important to understanding. If we let the Bible interpret the scriptures it should be very clear on the meaning.

Exodus 12:6 (KJV)
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening (Beyn Ha Arbayim).

Exodus 12:8 (KJV)
8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

Exodus 12:29-33 (KJV) 29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. 30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead. 31 And he called for Moses and Aaron by night, and said, Rise up, and get you forth from among my people, both ye and the children of Israel; and go, serve the Lord, as ye have said. 32 Also take your flocks and your herds, as ye have said, and be gone; and bless me also. 33 And the Egyptians were urgent upon the people, that they might send them out of the land in haste; for they said, We be all dead men.

Deuteronomy16:2-3 (KJV)
2Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the Lord thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the Lord shall choose to place his name there. 3 Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.

The above scriptures seem to say the Passover lamb was killed on the 14th before sunset at the end of the 14th not the beginning. After the sunset is the night of the 15th when God past over those that had the blood on the doors and the same night, they ate the Passover with unleavened bread, the first day of eating unleavened bread for seven days. The 15th is the day they left Egypt after midnight; Egypt wanted them to leave so badly they gave them whatever they asked for. The other verses above where hā·‘ar·bā·yim is if read will also show that it is in the afternoon before sunset not after sunset. Israel was on the 14th preparing to leave Egypt it is the preparation day,

One other fact; if it is after sunset that starts another day it would no longer be the 14th.

Matthew 26:17 (KJV)
17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

Matthew 27:62-64 (KJV) 62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, 63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. 64 Command therefore that the sepulcher be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

Mark 14:12 (KJV) 12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Mark 15:42-43 (KJV) 42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.

Luke 22:7-9 (KJV) 7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. 8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. 9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare

Luke 22:14-38 (KJV)
14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

Luke 23:51-54 (KJV)
51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. 52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. 54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

John13:15 (KJV) Now before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.5 After that he poureth water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

John 18:28 (KJV) 28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

John 19:13-14 (KJV) 13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

John 19:31 (KJV) 31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

John 19:41-42 (KJV) 41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulcher, wherein was never man yet laid.42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulcher was nigh at han

In Luke, Jesus said he desired to eat the Passover before he suffered but is not to any more eat until fulfilled in the kingdom of God. Jesus entire life in the flesh was fulfilling the law and prophets. In John, when the chief priests took Jesus to Pilate, they would not go in because they would become unclean because they had not killed or eaten the Passover. Now when they took Jesus to Pilate it was early morning hours after the Last Supper. Remember Matthew said now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, and Mark said the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover, Luke said then came the day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover, and John said that before the feast of the Passover.

They are all speaking of the same day. See Jesus and the disciples were in Jerusalem the day of the 13th. When the sun set it became the 14th so we have, as some call it, the first day of the feast, since they combine all eight days into one feast, the beginning of the 14th Passover day, or preparation day the same day they kill the Passover. Jesus sent the disciples to prepare for the Passover, (remove any leaven) that they would have eaten the next night, the 15th.

The image I receive is Jesus sent Peter and John to prepare for the Passover after sundown the beginning of the 14th of Nisan, the preparation day of the Passover. Thus Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were all on the same day, the kickoff of the 14th of Nisan and the last supper was not a Passover meal, afterwards the same day Jesus becomes our Passover Lamb. He dies the same time they were killed the evening Tamid and the Passover lambs at the temple, at the going down of the sun on the ending of the 14th of Nisan. I hope this is beneficial. in light and love Rodron

FenderTL5 · Feb 28, 2019

see chaburah as a possible non-Seder alternative.

Albion · Feb 28, 2019

I don't believe that it was a Passover meal, Rodron, and I was taught that it wasn't. The Bible shows Christ speaking to the Apostles about having one, but He appears to have sprung the "new and improved" commemoration on them when they gathered together.

Rodron · Feb 28, 2019

Albion said:
I don't believe that it was a Passover meal, Rodron, and I was taught that it wasn't. The Bible shows Christ speaking to the Apostles about having one, but He appears to have sprung the "new and improved" commemoration on them when they gathered together.

Thanks! Albion Out with the old and in with the new.

eleos1954 · Feb 28, 2019

Rodron said:
Some say the last supper was the Passover meal. It may appear that Matthew, Mark, and Luke have a differing account than John; some might say they oppose each other, but if you put each side by side and compare each section that they are writing about, we may witness the truth.

Passover Lamb

The high priest's practice of killing the Passover Lamb had been in force for hundreds, perhaps a thousand years.On Friday of the year Jesus died, the Jews celebrated Passover and killed a lamb for the temple sacrifice.

When Jesus died about 3:00 in the afternoon/early evening was the time when the priest was performing his regular priestly duties (The Perpetual Sacrifice in the Temple were 9 a.m. and 3 p.m) ... and what happened ...

Mark 15

37 But Jesus let out a loud cry and breathed His last. 38 And the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.

While this is happening, across town a cross is enshrouded by black clouds. Jesus, the Passover Lamb who is dying on the cross, cries out, “It is is finished!” then He dies for the sins of the world. Matthew 27:46-53

Thus signifying sacrificial system is no longer needed (nailed to the cross), because Jesus was the last sacrifice, once and for all. (The ceremonial/sacrificial system did end, took about 40 years -- no email in those days ;o) )

The Feast of Unleavened Bread

The year that Jesus died, Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, was also the day on which the Jews celebrated the Feast of Unleavened Bread. This feast reminded the Jews of the bread that God provided for the Israelites when they left Egypt. Consider the significant parallels between this feast and Jesus' death:

First, wheat seeds must die in order to bring forth crop. Similarly, Jesus had to die and be buried in order to accomplish his ministry and be raised to a new life. Second, unleavened bread was made without yeast, because yeast represented sin 1 Corinthians 5:7-8. In the same way, Jesus, the Lamb of God, was sinless.

Feast of the First fruits

On the Sunday following Jesus death, the Israelites celebrated the Feast of First fruits, which in this case celebrated the beginning of the barley harvest.

The Israelites returned to God the "first part" of everything they had been given to indicate their thankfulness for the harvest, their acknowledgement that God had given them the gifts, and their faith that God would continue to provide Numbers 15:17-21; Deuteronomy 26:1-11. They gave the best part of what they received to God Exodus 23:19.

Also, on that day, Jesus came to life as God's first fruits, the guarantee that the rest would follow, including the resurrection from the dead 1 Corinthians. 15:20-23.

In regard to the OP --- Did he eat? Yes

Luke 22

14 When the hour had come, Jesus reclined at the table with His apostles. 15And He (Jesus) said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before My suffering. 16 For I tell you that I will not eat it again until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”

God Bless.

Hillsage · Feb 28, 2019

If Jesus was eating the Passover with his apostles, then they wouldn't have thought Judas was leaving to go buy stuff for the next day's evening, when the Passover started.

JOH 19:14 Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about the sixth hour. He said to the Jews, "Behold your King!" 15 They cried out, "Away with him, away with him, crucify him!"

Jesus was crucified on "the day of Preparation"

JOH 13:29 Some thought that, because Judas had the money box, Jesus was telling him, "Buy what we need for THE FEAST"; or, that he should give something to the poor.

The apostles knew better than anyone today, whether the last supper was the OT THE FEAST of Passover or not.

Rodron · Feb 28, 2019

eleos1954 said:
Passover Lamb

The high priest's practice of killing the Passover Lamb had been in force for hundreds, perhaps a thousand years.On Friday of the year Jesus died, the Jews celebrated Passover and killed a lamb for the temple sacrifice.

When Jesus died about 3:00 in the afternoon/early evening was the time when the priest was performing his regular priestly duties (The Perpetual Sacrifice in the Temple were 9 a.m. and 3 p.m) ... and what happened ...

Mark 15

37 But Jesus let out a loud cry and breathed His last. 38 And the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.

While this is happening, across town a cross is enshrouded by black clouds. Jesus, the Passover Lamb who is dying on the cross, cries out, “It is is finished!” then He dies for the sins of the world. Matthew 27:46-53

Thus signifying sacrificial system is no longer needed (nailed to the cross), because Jesus was the last sacrifice, once and for all. (The ceremonial/sacrificial system did end, took about 40 years -- no email in those days ;o) )

The Feast of Unleavened Bread

The year that Jesus died, Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, was also the day on which the Jews celebrated the Feast of Unleavened Bread. This feast reminded the Jews of the bread that God provided for the Israelites when they left Egypt. Consider the significant parallels between this feast and Jesus' death:

First, wheat seeds must die in order to bring forth crop. Similarly, Jesus had to die and be buried in order to accomplish his ministry and be raised to a new life. Second, unleavened bread was made without yeast, because yeast represented sin 1 Corinthians 5:7-8. In the same way, Jesus, the Lamb of God, was sinless.

Feast of the First fruits

On the Sunday following Jesus death, the Israelites celebrated the Feast of First fruits, which in this case celebrated the beginning of the barley harvest.

The Israelites returned to God the "first part" of everything they had been given to indicate their thankfulness for the harvest, their acknowledgement that God had given them the gifts, and their faith that God would continue to provide Numbers 15:17-21; Deuteronomy 26:1-11. They gave the best part of what they received to God Exodus 23:19.

Also, on that day, Jesus came to life as God's first fruits, the guarantee that the rest would follow, including the resurrection from the dead 1 Corinthians. 15:20-23.

In regard to the OP --- Did he eat? Yes

Luke 22

14 When the hour had come, Jesus reclined at the table with His apostles. 15And He (Jesus) said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before My suffering. 16 For I tell you that I will not eat it again until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”

God Bless.

I have seen that on Thattheworldmayknow too.

Rodron · Feb 28, 2019

FenderTL5 said:
see chaburah as a possible non-Seder alternative.

hey thanks!! I checked it out. I'm not that political. Philosophy leads to covering the truth with bla bla bla painted words that ends with where it starts. in love Rodron.

rakovsky · Sep 4, 2019

Dear Rodron,
In your Opening Post, you gave alot of good reasons to think that the Last Supper was a day before the Passover Seder. You alluded to the issue of not working on the day of the Seder. This suggests that the numerous activities that Jesus' followers and the Sadduccees performed in the days leading up to Jesus' laying in the tomb happened before the Seder. So I think that the weight of the evidence supports your position. I laid out all the reasons that I found both pro and contra the Last Supper being the night of the Seder here: What did Jesus mean at the Last Supper when he said that he "desired to eat this Passover"?

You alluded to what is the toughest issue for me (ie. Mark and Luke saying that the disciples looked for the room for the Last Supper on the Day of Unleavened Bread when they killed the lambs) when you wrote:

Rodron said:
Remember Matthew said now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, and Mark said the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover, Luke said then came the day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover, and John said that before the feast of the Passover.

They are all speaking of the same day. See Jesus and the disciples were in Jerusalem the day of the 13th. When the sun set it became the 14th so we have, as some call it, the first day of the feast, since they combine all eight days into one feast, the beginning of the 14th Passover day, or preparation day the same day they kill the Passover. Jesus sent the disciples to prepare for the Passover, (remove any leaven) that they would have eaten the next night, the 15th.

The image I receive is Jesus sent Peter and John to prepare for the Passover after sundown the beginning of the 14th of Nisan, the preparation day of the Passover. Thus Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were all on the same day, the kickoff of the 14th of Nisan and the last supper was not a Passover meal, afterwards the same day Jesus becomes our Passover Lamb.

The way that I see you dealing with this issue is by suggesting that "Jesus sent Peter and John to prepare for the Passover after sundown the beginning of the 14th of Nisan, the preparation day of the Passover."
My difficulty with this solution is that the Synoptics seem to depict Jesus as eating the Last Supper in the evening after the disciples had found the room. Mark 14:12 has:

12 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?”

Next, Jesus gives them their instructions on finding the Upper Room. Then Mark writes:

16. So His disciples went out, and came into the city, and found it just as He had said to them; and they prepared the Passover.
17. In the evening He came with the twelve. 18. Now as they sat and ate, Jesus said,...[etc.]

So Mark makes it sound as if the disciples got the instructions "on" the day when people killed the Passover Lamb, and then later, that evening, Jesus gathered with the disciples for the Last Supper.
So my main question is how would you address Mark 14:12 and Luke 22 which both specify apparently that Jesus gave them the instructions on the day when the lambs were killed, before the evening of the Last Supper?
One explanation that I read is that the Greek word in Mark 14:12 translated as "on the" day of the Feast (in Greek 'te'), can mean either "on"/"in" or it can mean "about", as in
Matthew 6:25
GRK: μὴ μεριμνᾶτε τῇ ψυχῇ ὑμῶν
NAS: do not be worried about your life

So Jesus was instructing them "about" the Day of Preparation, per this theory. While this might work for Mark 14:12, it looks tougher to explain Luke 22:7-8:
"Then came the Day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat."
It sounds like this means that when the Day when the lamb was killed came, Jesus sent Peter and John to prepare the Passover. That is, Jesus did this on that particular day.
May there is some Greek translation issue that I don't pick up and it just means that the Day of the lamb's slaughter was coming on but hadn't actually come yet. But it looks tough to explain.

How would you or others on the thread address this issue?

rakovsky · Sep 4, 2019

Hillsage said:
If Jesus was eating the Passover with his apostles, then they wouldn't have thought Judas was leaving to go buy stuff for the next day's evening, when the Passover started.

JOH 19:14 Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about the sixth hour. He said to the Jews, "Behold your King!" 15 They cried out, "Away with him, away with him, crucify him!"

Jesus was crucified on "the day of Preparation"

JOH 13:29 Some thought that, because Judas had the money box, Jesus was telling him, "Buy what we need for THE FEAST"; or, that he should give something to the poor.

The apostles knew better than anyone today, whether the last supper was the OT THE FEAST of Passover or not.

Dear Hillsage,
What you wrote above, quoting from John's Gospel, is actually one of the significant arguments suggesting that the Last Supper happened before the Seder, since it wouldn't make much sense for Judas to be violating the rules on resting on the Seder in order to buy things for the Feast.
On the other hand, it's often thought that the Synoptic Gospels conflict with John's Gospel on whether the Last Supper was a Seder. May I ask how you might address the issue that I raised above about Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7? They appear to be explicit that the daytime before the Seder was when the lambs were killed.

Hillsage · Sep 4, 2019

rakovsky said:
How would you or others on the thread address this issue?

The apostles commented on this issue 2,000 years ago and they weren't guessing about religious history, so I would answer the same as I did in post #6 which included an 'I agree' icon from Rodron.

EDIT; I posted and then saw that you had just posted also.

rakovsky · Sep 4, 2019

Hillsage said:
The apostles commented on this issue 2,000 years ago and they weren't guessing about religious history, so I would answer the same as I did in post #6 which included an 'I agree' icon from Rodron.

Dear Hillsage,
Sure we can say that we should go with the apostles. What tripped me up is that in Mark 12:14 and Luke 22:7 it looks like those two apostles are saying that the Passover Seder was the same night as the Last Supper. Do you see what I mean about that?

Hillsage · Sep 4, 2019

rakovsky said:
Dear Hillsage,
Sure we can say that we should go with the apostles. What tripped me up is that in Mark 12:14 and Luke 22:7 it looks like those two apostles are saying that the Passover Seder was the same night as the Last Supper. Do you see what I mean about that?

Do a study on what kind of bread they were eating at the last supper, it was not unleavened as the churches have taught us to believe. Read this short Part 1 article and see if it influences you in any way.

Prophecy Truths -- Was The Last Supper A Passover Seder?

rakovsky · Sep 4, 2019

Sure, Hillsage. The Gospels do not mention azyme bread and they all use the word for regular bread in Greek. I guess that the word for regular bread could include azyme bread, but anyway I think that it's a good argument that it was not the Feast of Unleavened Bread. There are plenty of other arguments that it was not a Passover Seder, and I am like 75% sure that it wasn't. I am just stuck on Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:17 basically saying that earlier the disciples prepared the room on the day when the lambs were killed.

The article that you cited says: "Mark 14:12 (NASB) And on the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread...... (note heavy use of inserted meaning in italics, this was not the first day of the feast, but the first Day of Preparation)."

I think that the article is saying that this was not really the first day of the feast and that this meaning is just inserted. OK, I can understand that this was not the First Day of Unleavened bread, but really the preparation. But nonetheless the rest of the verse, as well as Luke 22:7 specify that on this day the lambs were killed.

Hillsage · Sep 4, 2019

rakovsky said:
Sure, Hillsage. The Gospels do not mention azyme bread and they all use the word for regular bread in Greek. I guess that the word for regular bread could include azyme bread, but anyway I think that it's a good argument that it was not the Feast of Unleavened Bread. There are plenty of other arguments that it was not a Passover Seder, and I am like 75% sure that it wasn't. I am just stuck on Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:17 basically saying that earlier the disciples prepared the room on the day when the lambs were killed.

The article that you cited says: "Mark 14:12 (NASB) And on the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread...... (note heavy use of inserted meaning in italics, this was not the first day of the feast, but the first Day of Preparation)."

I think that the article is saying that this was not really the first day of the feast and that this meaning is just inserted. OK, I can understand that this was not the First Day of Unleavened bread, but really the preparation. But nonetheless the rest of the verse, as well as Luke 22:7 specify that on this day the lambs were killed.

For what it's worth, the apostle Paul said his 'word for bread' came from the Lord;

1 Corinthians 11:23 (NASB) For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread;....

(PA) lakhma, (H) lekhem, (G) arton. All 3 texts agree that the bread was regular bread and not unleavened bread.

(PA) = Peshitta Aramaic New Testament with the Hebrew translation
(H) = Hebrew version of the Aramaic,
(G) = Greek NT manuscript (Stephens 1551 which was the basis for the KJV).

Der Alte · Sep 4, 2019

rakovsky said:
begin

<RA>Sure, Hillsage. The Gospels do not mention azyme bread and they all use the word for regular bread in Greek. I guess that the word for regular bread could include azyme bread, but anyway I think that it's a good argument that it was not the Feast of Unleavened Bread. There are plenty of other arguments that it was not a Passover Seder, and I am like 75% sure that it wasn't. I am just stuck on Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:17 basically saying that earlier the disciples prepared the room on the day when the lambs were killed.
The article that you cited says: "Mark 14:12 (NASB) And on the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread...... (note heavy use of inserted meaning in italics, this was not the first day of the feast, but the first Day of Preparation)."
I think that the article is saying that this was not really the first day of the feast and that this meaning is just inserted. OK, I can understand that this was not the First Day of Unleavened bread, but really the preparation. But nonetheless the rest of the verse, as well as Luke 22:7 specify that on this day the lambs were killed.<RA>

end

There is a problem with this scenario. There is no preparation day for ULB, the preparation and cooking of food is specifically permitted on the first and last day of ULB.

Exodus 12:15-16
(15) Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
(16) And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

rakovsky · Sep 4, 2019

Der Alter,
Thanks for writing back. One of the main things that I am interested in seeing is how to deal with Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7 if Christ was crucified on the day when the lambs were crucified as many scholars suggest. Those verses would seem to imply that the lambs were killed the day that Christ had his apostles get the Upper Room. But some scholars make claims like the Greek word for "On" in Mark 14 can mean "about". Actually, I think that their theory is right about the meaning of the Greek word, but normally it looks like it would mean "On" in Mark 14:12.

Vicky gould · Sep 5, 2019

Rodron said:
Some say the last supper was the Passover meal. It may appear that Matthew, Mark, and Luke have a differing account than John; some might say they oppose each other, but if you put each side by side and compare each section that they are writing about, we may witness the truth.
The Jewish day starts at sundown around 6pm and ends around 6pm. The night has 12 hours and the day has 12 hours, depending on the time of year. In the spring, it is close to 12 and 12. The dark/night is the start of the day and the first hour starts at sundown around 6pm the 12th hour of the night ends at sunrise around 6am, so the beginning hr. of light/day starts between 6am and 7am. Midnight is the 6th hour of dark and midday are the sixth hour of light. The third hour of light to us would be 9am and the sixth hour noon, 9th hour 3pm and 12th hour sundown or 6pm.

Passover day and the Feast of Unleavened Bread?

Passover day is always the 14th of the 1st month Nisan/Aviv regardless of the day of the week. It is set by the phases of the moon, and the feast of unleavened bread is the 15th-21st. It is seven days long with the first and the seventh day holy convocations, which are Sabbath days like the seventh day Sabbath, but you can prepare food to eat, the seventh day Sabbath no work.
Preparation day?

Because on the Sabbath, you cannot do any kind of work, the day before which is the 6th day or Friday is preparation day, because all cooking, any kind of chores, washing, all was done before sundown of the 6th day. There is also another preparation day; it is the preparation of the Passover the 14th because at sundown it is the 15th the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. The first and the seventh day of the feast are holy convocations. The 14th you must remove all leaven from the house; every inch of the house must be clean even the cracks in the floor, and any other work before sundown. The Passover sacrifice of the lamb is at the end of the 14th but this is a preparation day, regardless of what day of the week, it is the 14th of Nisan/Aviv every year. Some combine the eight days and call it The Feast of Passover and some The Feast of Unleavened Bread so for some the first day is the 14th. It helps to keep this in mind when we read the scriptures it will help the understanding the four gospels.

Where, when and how
Exodus 12:3-10 (KJV)
3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house. 4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: 6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. 7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. 9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. 10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

Exodus 12:29-31 (KJV)
29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. 30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead. 31 And he called for Moses and Aaron by night, and said, Rise up, and get you forth from among my people, both ye and the children of Israel; and go, serve the Lord, as ye have said.

Exodus 12:41-42 (KJV)
41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt. 42 It is a night to be much observed unto the Lord for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the Lord to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations.

Deuteronomy 16:1-3 (KJV)
And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians. 2Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the Lord thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the Lord shall choose to place his name there. 3 Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.

On the tenth day of the first month, they took up the lamb and held to the fourteenth (same day Jesus rode into Jerusalem).
The fourteenth day of the first month is the sacrifice of the Passover.
Sacrifice is at even, at the going down of the sun, any time after noon and before sunset.
It will be roasted and eaten in the place where God shall choose to place his name.
Nothing shall remain until morning and if any does, they were to burn it with fire.
Jerusalem was the place, and they could not leave Jerusalem until morning just like the first Passover, the people of Israel could not leave the house that had the blood on the door until morning after midnight.

They left Egypt the morning of the 15th and it probably was still dark when they started because Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in the night and told them to rise up and get forth from among my people.

They killed the Passover, put the blood on the doors, ate the Passover, left Egypt. They could not have killed the Passover at the beginning of the 14th, they would have to wait 24 hours before they left Egypt because they left on the 15th. The Passover sacrifice is on the 14th at even and is eaten on the night of the 15th with unleavened bread and bitter herbs, the first day of the seven-day feast, the day they left Egypt. It is a night to be much observed unto the Lord for bringing them out of the land of Egypt. (The Night of the 15th)

In the evening, Ex. 12:6 in the evening, in Hebrew is the hā·‘ar·bā·yim meaning between the evenings. Some believe that it is the time between sunset and dark, and some believe that it is when the sun starts going down afternoon till sunset.

The words hā·‘ar·bā·yim is in Exodus 12:6 in the evening 16:12 at even 29:39 at even 41 at even 30:8 at even. In Lev. 23:5 at even. In NUM. 9:3 at even 5 at even 11 at even 28:4 at even 8 at even. In 1 Chr. 23:30 at even. The different opinions on the meaning of between the evenings create controversy when the Passover lamb was killed and when it was eaten. Is it at the beginning of the 14th or the end of the 14th? This is important to understanding. If we let the Bible interpret the scriptures it should be very clear on the meaning.

Exodus 12:6 (KJV)
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening (Beyn Ha Arbayim).

Exodus 12:8 (KJV)
8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

Exodus 12:29-33 (KJV) 29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. 30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead. 31 And he called for Moses and Aaron by night, and said, Rise up, and get you forth from among my people, both ye and the children of Israel; and go, serve the Lord, as ye have said. 32 Also take your flocks and your herds, as ye have said, and be gone; and bless me also. 33 And the Egyptians were urgent upon the people, that they might send them out of the land in haste; for they said, We be all dead men.

Deuteronomy16:2-3 (KJV)
2Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the Lord thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the Lord shall choose to place his name there. 3 Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.

The above scriptures seem to say the Passover lamb was killed on the 14th before sunset at the end of the 14th not the beginning. After the sunset is the night of the 15th when God past over those that had the blood on the doors and the same night, they ate the Passover with unleavened bread, the first day of eating unleavened bread for seven days. The 15th is the day they left Egypt after midnight; Egypt wanted them to leave so badly they gave them whatever they asked for. The other verses above where hā·‘ar·bā·yim is if read will also show that it is in the afternoon before sunset not after sunset. Israel was on the 14th preparing to leave Egypt it is the preparation day,

One other fact; if it is after sunset that starts another day it would no longer be the 14th.

Matthew 26:17 (KJV)
17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

Matthew 27:62-64 (KJV) 62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, 63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. 64 Command therefore that the sepulcher be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

Mark 14:12 (KJV) 12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Mark 15:42-43 (KJV) 42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.

Luke 22:7-9 (KJV) 7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. 8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. 9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare

Luke 22:14-38 (KJV)
14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

Luke 23:51-54 (KJV)
51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. 52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. 54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

John13:15 (KJV) Now before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.5 After that he poureth water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

John 18:28 (KJV) 28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

John 19:13-14 (KJV) 13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

John 19:31 (KJV) 31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

John 19:41-42 (KJV) 41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulcher, wherein was never man yet laid.42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulcher was nigh at han

In Luke, Jesus said he desired to eat the Passover before he suffered but is not to any more eat until fulfilled in the kingdom of God. Jesus entire life in the flesh was fulfilling the law and prophets. In John, when the chief priests took Jesus to Pilate, they would not go in because they would become unclean because they had not killed or eaten the Passover. Now when they took Jesus to Pilate it was early morning hours after the Last Supper. Remember Matthew said now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, and Mark said the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover, Luke said then came the day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover, and John said that before the feast of the Passover.

hi, said it was over the limit so I removed some of your post. Sorry! nice article but I have to disagree. Here is some reasons why.

Jesus was born in Bethlehem and we must understand that Bethlehem was a special other than the Lord being born there. Migdal Eder was located here that is the Tower of the Flock, what flock? The flocks for temple sacrifice the shepherds these were probably the Angels appeared the night the Lord was born in a manger the feeding trough of what most likely were the sacrificial sheep. The only road leading from there is the same road the the Lord was entering Jerusalem with the other Passover lamb’s .

Hillsage · Sep 5, 2019

rakovsky said:
Der Alter,
Thanks for writing back. One of the main things that I am interested in seeing is how to deal with Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7 if Christ was crucified on the day when the lambs were crucified as many scholars suggest. Those verses would seem to imply that the lambs were killed the day that Christ had his apostles get the Upper Room. But some scholars make claims like the Greek word for "On" in Mark 14 can mean "about". Actually, I think that their theory is right about the meaning of the Greek word, but normally it looks like it would mean "On" in Mark 14:12.

ALL of the biblical verses saying what kind of bread was used in every communion account is too compelling for me. And this fact is consistent, not just in every gospel, but also in the 4 communion verses in 1 Corinthians and Acts 20:7. All say leavened or raised bread. The leavened bread of the new life of the New covenant was being instituted by Jesus who WAS the "living bread" and the "living" fulfillment of the Old covenant unleavened Passover bread of suffering and death in Egypt.

JOH 6:51 I am the living bread/artos which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread/artos, he will live for ever; and the bread/artos which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

And yes, every "bread" word was not unleavened in this verse.

0740 artos:bread (as raised) or a loaf

Last nail in the coffin of orthodox error IMO. Why did they break the legs of the two thieves crucified with Jesus?

MAR 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

I just know I love dipping a pulled off piece of 'living' whole wheat bread made by my wife, and dipping it in a glass of real 'living' wine, as we celebrate communion in our house. But on Sunday's, it's going through the motions of the orthodox elements of Saltine cracker crumbs and grape juice. Oh well, it's hardly an essential to walking in the life of Christ.

rakovsky · Sep 5, 2019

Hillsage said:
ALL of the biblical verses saying what kind of bread was used in every communion account is too compelling for me. And this fact is consistent, not just in every gospel, but also in the 4 communion verses in 1 Corinthians and Acts 20:7. All say leavened or raised bread. The leavened bread of the new life of the New covenant was being instituted by Jesus who WAS the "living bread" and the "living" fulfillment of the Old covenant unleavened Passover bread of suffering and death in Egypt.

JOH 6:51 I am the living bread/artos which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread/artos, he will live for ever; and the bread/artos which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

And yes, every "bread" word was not unleavened in this verse.

0740 artos:bread (as raised) or a loaf

Last nail in the coffin of orthodox error IMO. Why did they break the legs of the two thieves crucified with Jesus?

MAR 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

I just know I love dipping a pulled off piece of 'living' whole wheat bread made by my wife, and dipping it in a glass of real 'living' wine, as we celebrate communion in our house. But on Sunday's, it's going through the motions of the orthodox elements of Saltine cracker crumbs and grape juice. Oh well, it's hardly an essential to walking in the life of Christ.

Right. You don't have to persuade me that the Last Supper was not a Seder, because I am 75% sure that it wasn't, due to evidence like yours. My main problem is dealing with Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7. There have been different theories that I found, but none of them looked great to me.

First, Mark 14 begins by describing the priests' conspiracy, saying:

1. After two days it was the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take Him by trickery and put Him to death.

This sounds like either (A) two days after the events in Chapter 13 when Jesus gave his teaching on the Mount of Olivesh, the priests conspired, or (B) an awkward way of saying that two days in the future from the day when the priests had their discussion, the Feast of Unleavened Bread would happen.

Then Mark 14 says:

12. Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?”

You can read "on the first day" grammatically in Greek as either that the disciples asked him the question at the time of the first day, ie. when the first day came, or "about" the first day. This is because the Greek term for "on the" (τῇ) can mean either.
In Matthew 6:25, it is part of the phrase "do not be worried about (τῇ) your life". But it usually seems to mean the way that it sounds in English, like in Matthew 13:1:

GREEK: Ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ
Interlinear Translation: And in the [same] day that

Next, it says:

16. So His disciples went out, and came into the city, and found it just as He had said to them; and they prepared the Passover.

The plain meaning is that they prepared "the" Passover, which they had been discussing with Christ, but theoretically it could mean a special Passover meal or Jesus' spiritual Passover.

Like I mentioned, there are different explanations for the verses. I gave one for each verse above, but they don't look real convincing.

Did Jesus eat the Passover

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