The Free Will of Pharaoh--- Exodus---Did he have a choice?
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The point in me citing Romans 3:1-20 was to show that the beginning state of all humans is 'all are sinners' and we are condemned before a Holy God.
In what manner do our choices in this state of sin and 'none seek Him' end up in some being children of God and some remaining as children of wrath?
Romans 3: NASB
9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;
14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;
15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”
18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”
19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
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Oldmantook
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Did you even bother to do some minimum due diligence on your part? Get back to me when you perform a few keystrokes and let me know what you learn for yourself about block vs. linear thinking. After all, I assume you don't want to be uninformed. Iron sharpens iron.
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Would a more precise definition of your observations from the text of Exodus be you view this a paradox?
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They were still alive, meaning wasn't there still time to repent?
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Yes I am currently reading/studying Exodus.
Infanticide. A lot of that going on here and now if I am not mistaken about the current news.
You see Pharaoh went beyond a certain point (Romans 1) and was before chapter 3 was given over to a depraved mind as in Romans 1:28-32 ?
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. (Romans 1:28-32)
I would ask, why then did God have to harden Pharaoh if he was already beyond the point and given over to depraved mind?
I think it important to point out that the Pharaoh of chapter 1, the baby killer, is not the same Pharaoh of the plagues. Even if that next Pharaoh was the son of the baby killer, he would not incur judgment for the direct sin of his father. He may suffer its consequences as we see his entire kingdom go to shambles for previous Pharaohs oppressing God's Chosen People, the sons of Jacob.
Exodus 2: NASB
23Now it came about in the course of those many days that the king of Egypt died. And the sons of Israel sighed because of the bondage, and they cried out; and their cry for help because of their bondage rose up to God. 24So God heard their groaning; and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 25God saw the sons of Israel, and God took notice of them.
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- Mar 17, 2015
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Ah, I hadn't considered Moses grew up in the meanwhile there, meaning the old pharaoh would pass on, and he does at the end of chapter 2. We can notice early on in chapter 3 though that this new pharaoh is also a bad character: "The Lord said, “I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering." (verses 7,9) -- the wording "cry out" is like back in Genesis 18, where the crying out ('outcry') of the innocent victims in Sodom had become severe enough that God would do something about it. Evil isn't permitted unlimited range forever, but will be ended. Having already proven himself also unjust, this pharaoh too would likely deserve all that would happen to him. He would never have let the people go merely because they asked. Be he might have just from plain fear.
Out of self-preservation, pragmatically, without any relenting of the evil in his heart.
I was rereading Romans 1 though to try to see whether it could apply, and it would seem verse 21-23 would be quite likely generally in Egypt during various pharaohs. On the whole, it seems God hardens hearts or gives illusions to those that truly won't turn because of any desire to do right...
...so that they are prevented to merely turn out of selfish interests pragmatically, without any desire even to love or wish to do right. (as before, it's not successfully doing most right God requires it seems, before redemption, but instead just the desire to do right it seems, however imperfect in practice, even if only little accomplished at all)
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icxn
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But God's compulsion wasn't the hardening of Pharaoh's heart so as not to let them go, but the harshness of the plagues so as to indeed let them go. Exodus 3:19 suggests to me that even before the hardening of his heart, Pharaoh would not have let the Israelites go. Exodus 7:3 also suggests that he would have likely let them go with fewer threats/plagues, but God hardened his heart so as to multiply His signs.
So Pharaoh did make a choice in not letting the Israelites go. What he didn't choose was the measure of plagues that eventually changed his will.
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Well, the way He says as in Isaiah chapter 46 from verse 8 to the end (short). Use the NIV translation for clarity. Isaiah 46 NIV
He "will fulfill" His purposes, He "will bring about" the outcome He chooses. -- He will intervene and alter the situation to change the outcome to what He chooses.
Different than it would have been if He had not acted.
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I’m trying to understand your reasoning. So...
If God isn’t in control, how is it His will that being done? The way you phrase this has God just being an approving spectator.
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I think it is good to notice how pharaohs heart was hardened. It happened every time God ended plague. So, God didn’t interfere with free will. God just made certain things happen and they had influence. Every time there was plague, pharaohs heart softened and every time plague ended, pharaohs heart hardened.
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You made a statement. It seemed definitive (though I’m starting to question that). I asked you a direct question in regards to that statement. This isn’t about my belief. It’s about yours. You can ask me questions about things I post. That’s fair. Right now, though, the question is directed to you concerning your post.
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