The Free Will of Pharaoh--- Exodus---Did he have a choice?

Not David

I'm back!
Apr 6, 2018
7,356
5,235
25
USA
✟231,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Would you like to share such commentary as it relates to Exodus?
I found this: "It is customary for Holy Scripture to call God's permission His action (John of Damascus). Therefore, when the Lord said to Moses, I will harden his heart, this hardness was by way of divine permission. For Pharaoh hardened his own heart through his free choice."
 
  • Informative
Reactions: StillGods
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,188
25,222
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,728,999.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I found this: "It is customary for Holy Scripture to call God's permission His action (John of Damascus). Therefore, when the Lord said to Moses, I will harden his heart, this hardness was by way of divine permission. For Pharaoh hardened his own heart through his free choice."
That seems like an uniformed opinion, especially since scripture says both Pharaoh hardened his heart, and God hardened his heart.
 
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,660
7,880
63
Martinez
✟906,474.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So the question is what kind of free will did Pharaoh exercise during the deliverance of Israel by God chapters of the book of Exodus?
When God said: “I will harden the heart of Pharaoh;” this was a Hebrew idiom expression for" I will permit his heart to be hardened.” God warned Pharaoh several times. He was persistently inflexible, God will eventually close the door.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: StillGods
Upvote 0

His student

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,235
555
78
Northwest
✟48,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Mission accomplished, right? God said Pharaoh would not let the people go without compulsion, God said He would harden Pharaoh's heart and we see above he acted as such as his heart was hardened.

So the question is what kind of free will did Pharaoh exercise during the deliverance of Israel by God chapters of the book of Exodus?

If one wants to answer this a different way...Did Pharaoh choose to do what he did?

It’s amazing that I should have to point out such obvious truths as follows. But I guess that’s just the way it is. The time has come when men will not abide strong doctrine but, wanting to have their ears tickled, they will gather to themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires. God knows there are many such shallow ear ticklers posting in this forum.

The scriptures are filled with examples of God and men acting and speaking concurrently. This is but one of the examples.

Sometimes the actions and words of men are good and sometimes they are evil. Always the actions and words of God are good.

E.G. ------ The actions of Joseph’s brothers were evil and they meant it as such. But God meant what He did (or allowed if you must) for good. The scriptures make it clear that, since God is the prime mover of all things, He was ultimately the one doing it (all for good alone since He is not the author of evil).

Caiaphas made an evil statement about one man dying for the good of the nation. He meant his comment for evil. At the same time God made the same statement as a prophecy. Therefore it was ultimately God doing it since even Caiaphas lived and moved and had his being in God.

The donkey brayed and meant it in the way a donkey only can. At the same time God spoke His words and later recorded them in the scriptures for us.

Evil men meant to crucify Jesus as an altogether evil act. They did it as such and they will answer for it as such. At the same time God “crushed” His Son, as the scriptures prophesied, and meant it for absolute good. God was ultimately the one doing good although He brought it to pass through choices and actions of evil men.

God uses natural means to bring to pass what He has predestined to happen. Sometimes those means are the choices for evil by men and sometimes they are choices for good by men. But God is always the prime mover and the ultimate sovereign of the universe – in every way imaginable.

Just as often as for evil, men make choices and speak words either for good or in a neutral way.

E.G. ------

Paul, John, Luke, Peter, Moses etc. wrote letters and documents out of their own mind and for their own reasons. They made the choice to speak as they did. No doubt Luke made the free choice to protect his writings from the rain and river crossings They did such things by their own free will and for their own reasons. At the same time – it was God doing the same things, and for an altogether good reason. He wrote the scriptures and protected them from destruction. No doubt, He has protected the Word of God in like manner for the last 2000 years.

It intrigues me that so many “anti-sovereignty types” object to the idea that God predestines and that He is the prime mover of all things in His creation. At the same time – they, at least nominally, agree with the inspiration of scripture and the concurrent actions of God and men in their creation. Of course, as we see so often here in the forum,many of them really do not believe the scriptures.

Sometimes they actually show their true colors and call the scriptures “metaphors” and “tribal mythology”

Well – enough examples. The fact is that we (both good and evil men) are vessels through whom God works for an ultimate good. We are as free as entities who have their being “in God” can be. We are created in His image and are able to relate in a personal way with Him as He is with us.

Mystery though these things are – it is just the way it is.

Some people chafe at what those facts are and they cry “I want to be completely free” and “we are but robots and puppets if this is true”. They deny what the scriptures tell us about our nature as created and sustained beings. Apparently - they perhaps inwardly wish they could be gods.

But I, and other people of faith like me, embrace these facts and rejoice in the mystery that we can be loved by the creator and sustainer of all things in a personal way in spite of not being His equals.

No doubt – Pharaoh, if he was posting in this forum, would be one of the former complainers because his free choices were planned long before he made them – in order that they could play a small part in a great and mysterious tapestry of good that God will display in the ages to come.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,338
✟788,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,196
9,204
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,159,252.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In Exodus chapter 3 Moses is confronted by YHWH and told the following:

Exodus 3: NASB
17“So I said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Amorite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, to a land flowing with milk and honey.”’ 18“They will pay heed to what you say; and you with the elders of Israel will come to the king of Egypt and you will say to him, ‘The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. So now, please, let us go a three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.’ 19“But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. 20“So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go. 21“I will grant this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be that when you go, you will not go empty-handed. 22“But every woman shall ask of her neighbor and the woman who lives in her house, articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing; and you will put them on your sons and daughters. Thus you will plunder the Egyptians.”

This demonstrates Israel will be let go but the king of Egypt (Pharaoh) would not permit such except under compulsion. Seems Pharaoh is going to have a 'battle of wills' with YHWH and lose. This stated well before the events occur. Stated again in chapter 6:

Then the LORD said to Moses, “Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for under compulsion he will let them go, and under compulsion he will drive them out of his land.” (Exodus 6:1)

Continuing in Exodus...


Exodus 7: NASB
1Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. 2“You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. 3“But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. 4“When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments. 5“The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the sons of Israel from their midst.” 6So Moses and Aaron did it; as the LORD commanded them, thus they did. 7Moses was eighty years old and Aaron eighty-three, when they spoke to Pharaoh.
Here we see YHWH will harden Pharaoh's heart so that God's signs and wonders will multiple in the land thus glorifying God. At this point, we see the compulsion mentioned in chapters 3 and 6 is accomplished by God hardening Pharaoh's heart. This continues for each plague brought upon by God on the land of Egypt:

Exodus 8: NASB
16Then the LORD said to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch out your staff and strike the dust of the earth, that it may become gnats through all the land of Egypt.’” 17They did so; and Aaron stretched out his hand with his staff, and struck the dust of the earth, and there were gnats on man and beast. All the dust of the earth became gnats through all the land of Egypt. 18The magicians tried with their secret arts to bring forth gnats, but they could not; so there were gnats on man and beast. 19Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

Mission accomplished, right? God said Pharaoh would not let the people go without compulsion, God said He would harden Pharaoh's heart and we see above he acted as such as his heart was hardened.

So the question is what kind of free will did Pharaoh exercise during the deliverance of Israel by God chapters of the book of Exodus?

If one wants to answer this a different way...Did Pharaoh choose to do what he did?
I hope someone pointed out the first chapter...the answer is right there.

Let me rephrase. I no longer have this very good question, that I've heard people ask in our bible study, if I read through from chapter 1.

I suppose I might well still have the question even reading through, except that because of reading through in other books also, I learned the overall way that works from chapter 1 showing us something that then leads to the thing in chapter 3.
 
Upvote 0

Tone

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."
Site Supporter
Dec 24, 2018
15,128
6,906
California
✟61,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
So the question is what kind of free will did Pharaoh exercise during the deliverance of Israel by God chapters of the book of Exodus?

The "captive" will of Pharaoh would be a more apt title, I think, since he did not know the Creator and He did not free Pharaoh's will, but allowed him to do what he desired...

Romans 8:7
"The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."

*Unless Yah sets the captive free.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Tolkien R.R.J

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2018
924
265
40
Virginia
✟74,559.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
In Exodus chapter 3 Moses is confronted by YHWH and told the following:

Exodus 3: NASB
17“So I said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Amorite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, to a land flowing with milk and honey.”’ 18“They will pay heed to what you say; and you with the elders of Israel will come to the king of Egypt and you will say to him, ‘The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. So now, please, let us go a three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.’ 19“But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. 20“So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go. 21“I will grant this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be that when you go, you will not go empty-handed. 22“But every woman shall ask of her neighbor and the woman who lives in her house, articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing; and you will put them on your sons and daughters. Thus you will plunder the Egyptians.”

This demonstrates Israel will be let go but the king of Egypt (Pharaoh) would not permit such except under compulsion. Seems Pharaoh is going to have a 'battle of wills' with YHWH and lose. This stated well before the events occur. Stated again in chapter 6:

Then the LORD said to Moses, “Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for under compulsion he will let them go, and under compulsion he will drive them out of his land.” (Exodus 6:1)

Continuing in Exodus...


Exodus 7: NASB
1Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. 2“You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. 3“But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. 4“When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments. 5“The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the sons of Israel from their midst.” 6So Moses and Aaron did it; as the LORD commanded them, thus they did. 7Moses was eighty years old and Aaron eighty-three, when they spoke to Pharaoh.
Here we see YHWH will harden Pharaoh's heart so that God's signs and wonders will multiple in the land thus glorifying God. At this point, we see the compulsion mentioned in chapters 3 and 6 is accomplished by God hardening Pharaoh's heart. This continues for each plague brought upon by God on the land of Egypt:

Exodus 8: NASB
16Then the LORD said to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch out your staff and strike the dust of the earth, that it may become gnats through all the land of Egypt.’” 17They did so; and Aaron stretched out his hand with his staff, and struck the dust of the earth, and there were gnats on man and beast. All the dust of the earth became gnats through all the land of Egypt. 18The magicians tried with their secret arts to bring forth gnats, but they could not; so there were gnats on man and beast. 19Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

Mission accomplished, right? God said Pharaoh would not let the people go without compulsion, God said He would harden Pharaoh's heart and we see above he acted as such as his heart was hardened.

So the question is what kind of free will did Pharaoh exercise during the deliverance of Israel by God chapters of the book of Exodus?

If one wants to answer this a different way...Did Pharaoh choose to do what he did?


Hard hearts

וַיְחַזֵּ֥ק, a Piel tense of the verb to make stronger. It is key to note that this is the Pi’el form of the verb, which means God strengthen Pharaoh heart. So God only reinforce what was already in Pharaoh’s heart.


But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.
exodus 8.15

and the Lord did what Moses asked. The flies left Pharaoh and his officials and his people; not a fly remained. 32 But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.
exodus 8.31

Pharaoh investigated and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelites had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go
Exodus 9.7

Why do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh did? When Israel’s god dealt harshly with them,did they not send the Israelites out so they could go on their way?
1 Samuel 6.6

Ex 9:11-12 “And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils were on the magicians and on all the Egyptians. But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses

God hardened Pharaoh’s heart and we are also told that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (4 times). Both statements are true and do not contradict each other. There was no hope of convincing or converting Pharaoh so his heart would be hardened by God (6 times, 10 times in all). God did not allow him to change his mind and was given no room to do anything else but what his own sinful heart dictated.

Notice that in a very real sense, all four of the following statements are true: (1) God hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (2) Moses hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (3) the words that Moses spoke hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (4) Pharaoh hardened his own heart. All four of these observations are accurate, depicting the same truth from different perspectives. In this sense, God is responsible for everything in the Universe, i.e., He has provided the occasion, the circumstances, and the environment in which all things (including people) operate. But He is not guilty of wrong in so doing. From a quick look at a simple Hebrew idiom, it is clear that God did not unjustly or directly harden Pharaoh’s heart. God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34), He does not act unjustly (Psalms 33:5), and He has always allowed humans to exercise their free moral agency (Deuteronomy 30:19). God, however, does use the wrong, stubborn decisions committed by rebellious sinners to further His causes (Isaiah 10:5-11). In the case of Pharaoh’s hardened heart, God can be charged with no injustice, and the Bible can be charged with no contradiction. Humans were created with free moral agency and are culpable for their own actions.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When God said: “I will harden the heart of Pharaoh;” this was a Hebrew idiom expression for" I will permit his heart to be hardened.” God warned Pharaoh several times. He was persistently inflexible, God will eventually closed the door.
God was giving Pharaoh enough rope?
 
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,185
7,003
69
USA
✟585,394.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
If one wants to answer this a different way...Did Pharaoh choose to do what he did?

Yes, in my view he did absolutely. Pharaoh's free will actions came first, and caused God to do the hardening of his heart.

Much the same way the Homosexuals acted as they did first by free will, then God chose to give them strong delusion to think it was ok to act that way, making it tougher to stop.

But you are right, God did mess with their free will in both cases, or tamper with their thinking, however those were a few of the very rare instances that happened in the bible.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,625
7,387
Dallas
✟889,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
In Exodus chapter 3 Moses is confronted by YHWH and told the following:

Exodus 3: NASB
17“So I said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Amorite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, to a land flowing with milk and honey.”’ 18“They will pay heed to what you say; and you with the elders of Israel will come to the king of Egypt and you will say to him, ‘The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. So now, please, let us go a three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.’ 19“But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. 20“So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go. 21“I will grant this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be that when you go, you will not go empty-handed. 22“But every woman shall ask of her neighbor and the woman who lives in her house, articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing; and you will put them on your sons and daughters. Thus you will plunder the Egyptians.”

This demonstrates Israel will be let go but the king of Egypt (Pharaoh) would not permit such except under compulsion. Seems Pharaoh is going to have a 'battle of wills' with YHWH and lose. This stated well before the events occur. Stated again in chapter 6:

Then the LORD said to Moses, “Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for under compulsion he will let them go, and under compulsion he will drive them out of his land.” (Exodus 6:1)

Continuing in Exodus...


Exodus 7: NASB
1Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. 2“You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. 3“But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. 4“When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments. 5“The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the sons of Israel from their midst.” 6So Moses and Aaron did it; as the LORD commanded them, thus they did. 7Moses was eighty years old and Aaron eighty-three, when they spoke to Pharaoh.
Here we see YHWH will harden Pharaoh's heart so that God's signs and wonders will multiple in the land thus glorifying God. At this point, we see the compulsion mentioned in chapters 3 and 6 is accomplished by God hardening Pharaoh's heart. This continues for each plague brought upon by God on the land of Egypt:

Exodus 8: NASB
16Then the LORD said to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch out your staff and strike the dust of the earth, that it may become gnats through all the land of Egypt.’” 17They did so; and Aaron stretched out his hand with his staff, and struck the dust of the earth, and there were gnats on man and beast. All the dust of the earth became gnats through all the land of Egypt. 18The magicians tried with their secret arts to bring forth gnats, but they could not; so there were gnats on man and beast. 19Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

Mission accomplished, right? God said Pharaoh would not let the people go without compulsion, God said He would harden Pharaoh's heart and we see above he acted as such as his heart was hardened.

So the question is what kind of free will did Pharaoh exercise during the deliverance of Israel by God chapters of the book of Exodus?

If one wants to answer this a different way...Did Pharaoh choose to do what he did?

Romans 9 says Pharaoh was a vessel made for destruction. Personally I believe God had foreseen that Pharaoh would not repent so He used Pharaoh to show His might and glory. I don’t believe God would do such a thing with a person who would’ve otherwise repented.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Not David
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I found this: "It is customary for Holy Scripture to call God's permission His action (John of Damascus). Therefore, when the Lord said to Moses, I will harden his heart, this hardness was by way of divine permission. For Pharaoh hardened his own heart through his free choice."
It would seem the Apostle Paul’s interpretation would differ somewhat.

Romans 9: NASB

15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That seems like an uniformed opinion, especially since scripture says both Pharaoh hardened his heart, and God hardened his heart.
What an interesting dichotomy...or is it a paradox?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hammster
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When God said: “I will harden the heart of Pharaoh;” this was a Hebrew idiom expression for" I will permit his heart to be hardened.” God warned Pharaoh several times. He was persistently inflexible, God will eventually closed the door.
Yet in chapter 3 God tells Moses Israel will be delivered however not without compulsion. Compulsion was part of the Divine plan.

Of course Pharaoh acted according to his nature.

The part that we should consider is God withheld His Mercy with regards to Pharaoh.
 
Upvote 0

roman2819

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 22, 2012
835
212
Singapore
✟208,448.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
In Exodus chapter 3 Moses is confronted by YHWH and told the following:

Exodus 3: NASB
17“So I said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Amorite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, to a land flowing with milk and honey.”’ 18“They will pay heed to what you say; and you with the elders of Israel will come to the king of Egypt and you will say to him, ‘The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. So now, please, let us go a three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.’ 19“But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. 20“So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go. 21“I will grant this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be that when you go, you will not go empty-handed. 22“But every woman shall ask of her neighbor and the woman who lives in her house, articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing; and you will put them on your sons and daughters. Thus you will plunder the Egyptians.”

This demonstrates Israel will be let go but the king of Egypt (Pharaoh) would not permit such except under compulsion. Seems Pharaoh is going to have a 'battle of wills' with YHWH and lose. This stated well before the events occur. Stated again in chapter 6:

Then the LORD said to Moses, “Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for under compulsion he will let them go, and under compulsion he will drive them out of his land.” (Exodus 6:1)

Continuing in Exodus...


Exodus 7: NASB
1Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. 2“You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. 3“But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. 4“When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments. 5“The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the sons of Israel from their midst.” 6So Moses and Aaron did it; as the LORD commanded them, thus they did. 7Moses was eighty years old and Aaron eighty-three, when they spoke to Pharaoh.
Here we see YHWH will harden Pharaoh's heart so that God's signs and wonders will multiple in the land thus glorifying God. At this point, we see the compulsion mentioned in chapters 3 and 6 is accomplished by God hardening Pharaoh's heart. This continues for each plague brought upon by God on the land of Egypt:

Exodus 8: NASB
16Then the LORD said to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch out your staff and strike the dust of the earth, that it may become gnats through all the land of Egypt.’” 17They did so; and Aaron stretched out his hand with his staff, and struck the dust of the earth, and there were gnats on man and beast. All the dust of the earth became gnats through all the land of Egypt. 18The magicians tried with their secret arts to bring forth gnats, but they could not; so there were gnats on man and beast. 19Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

Mission accomplished, right? God said Pharaoh would not let the people go without compulsion, God said He would harden Pharaoh's heart and we see above he acted as such as his heart was hardened.

So the question is what kind of free will did Pharaoh exercise during the deliverance of Israel by God chapters of the book of Exodus?

If one wants to answer this a different way...Did Pharaoh choose to do what he did?

To understand this issue, consider how things would really at ground level 3000 years ago.

Pharaoh was king and commander of the most powerful empire at that time, he was commander in chief over hundreds of thousands of soldiers, cavalry and chariots. Would such a powerful figure listen to Moses? Do you expect him to say, “Ok prophet as you request I will let your people go”? Think about it. The answer is obviously NO. Would a business director or manager listen to junior executive if the latter ask him to change company regulation?

God need not cause Pharaoh to refuse Moses. The lking would not have let the Hebrews go, he hardened his heart first. However, God could have caused Pharaoh to remain harden until all the 10 miracles were done.

The Bible asserts God’s sovereignty. To say that He hardened Pharaoh is a manner of writing that asserts His sovereignty. The Scripture portray God as active, as of HE cause things to happen, even if He only allowed them. Such was the way of writing during biblical times. The writers do not distinguish between whether God cause or allow, unlike we today. We have to understand their mindset. Back then, people were submissive to God, they don’t questions as we do today. How they think affects how they write.

Too many of us read the Scripture factually. But there are times to be factual and literal, and there are verses that are not meant to be taken literally. Eg: “If someone slap you on right cheek, turn your left too” is not literal.

Other food for thought. The slaves were servants to the Egyptians at that time. Would the Pharaoh dare to incur his people’s wrath by letting slaves go. He will be seen as a weak imbecile for listening to Moses who had no army. Also, Pharaoh and Egyptians worshipped other gods, not Jehovah; he had never seen Jehovah’s might nor believe in Him.

 
  • Like
Reactions: Tone
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Pharaoh's heart was hardened because of pride and power.

Romans 9
14 What, then, shall we say? unrighteousness [is] with God? let it not be! 15 for to Moses He saith, ‘I will do kindness to whom I do kindness, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion;’
16 so, then — not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness: 17 for the Writing saith to Pharaoh — ‘For this very thing I did raise thee up, that I might shew in thee My power, and that My name might be declared in all the land;
18 so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.


Even after the Passover event of the destroyer killing the 1st born in Egypt, and then Pharaoh letting the Hebrews go, Pharaoh's pride took over and he pursued the Hebrews to the Red Sea.

Exo 4:21
And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand.
But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
Exo 7:3
“And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exo 14:4
“Then I will harden Pharaoh's heart, so that he will pursue them;
and I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army,
that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD.” And they did so.

I would say that God raised up the Hebrew Israelites for the same reason, to show His power thru them, and just like Pharaoh and the Egyptians, by hardening Jewish rulers hearts for the same reason.....pride and also greed......

Mark 3:
5 And looking about them with wrath, together-sorrowing on the hardness of their heart, He is saying to the man, "Stretch forth thy hand"!. And he stretches out it and his hand was restored as the other.
6 And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against Him, how Him they might be destroying.


Ephesians 4:18
Having been darkened the understanding, being alienated of the life of the God,
thru the ignorance the being in them, thru the hardening of their heart;


2 Thessalonians 1:10

Whenever He shall be coming to be glorified in His saints, and to be marveled in all the ones believing that was believed the testimony of us upon ye in the Day, that .
Ezekiel 39:
12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land.
13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the Day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD.


And just as Moses and Israel sang after God's delivering them from the Egyptian at the Red Sea,
so also, the NC Christian Saints are singing both the song of Moses AND the song of the Lamb upon the destruction of the Temple in 70ad freeing them from the OC Mosaic sacrifices and the corrupt murderous Judean rulers.............

Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Song of Moses

Revelation 15:3
and They are singing the Song of-Mosheh, the bond-servant of the God, and the song of the Lamb-kin, saying, `Great and marvelous the works of Thee, Lord!, the God, the Almighty, just and true the ways of Thee, the king of the [*Ages/Saints] Nations]

Exodus 15:
1 Then sang Mosheh and the sons of Yisra'el this song unto YHWH, and they spake saying,--"I will sing to YHWH for He is exalted exalted,--The horse and his rider hath He cast into the Sea.
2 My might and melody is Yah, and He became mine salvation/y@shuw'ah.--This is my 'El and I will glorify Him, 'Elohiym of my father and I will set Him on high". '


...................

...................

...................

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FutureAndAHope

Just me
Site Supporter
Aug 30, 2008
6,362
2,912
Australia
Visit site
✟735,952.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In Exodus chapter 3 Moses is confronted by YHWH and told the following:

Exodus 3: NASB
17“So I said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Amorite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, to a land flowing with milk and honey.”’ 18“They will pay heed to what you say; and you with the elders of Israel will come to the king of Egypt and you will say to him, ‘The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. So now, please, let us go a three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.’ 19“But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. 20“So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go. 21“I will grant this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be that when you go, you will not go empty-handed. 22“But every woman shall ask of her neighbor and the woman who lives in her house, articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing; and you will put them on your sons and daughters. Thus you will plunder the Egyptians.”

This demonstrates Israel will be let go but the king of Egypt (Pharaoh) would not permit such except under compulsion. Seems Pharaoh is going to have a 'battle of wills' with YHWH and lose. This stated well before the events occur. Stated again in chapter 6:

Then the LORD said to Moses, “Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh; for under compulsion he will let them go, and under compulsion he will drive them out of his land.” (Exodus 6:1)

Continuing in Exodus...


Exodus 7: NASB
1Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. 2“You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. 3“But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. 4“When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments. 5“The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the sons of Israel from their midst.” 6So Moses and Aaron did it; as the LORD commanded them, thus they did. 7Moses was eighty years old and Aaron eighty-three, when they spoke to Pharaoh.
Here we see YHWH will harden Pharaoh's heart so that God's signs and wonders will multiple in the land thus glorifying God. At this point, we see the compulsion mentioned in chapters 3 and 6 is accomplished by God hardening Pharaoh's heart. This continues for each plague brought upon by God on the land of Egypt:

Exodus 8: NASB
16Then the LORD said to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch out your staff and strike the dust of the earth, that it may become gnats through all the land of Egypt.’” 17They did so; and Aaron stretched out his hand with his staff, and struck the dust of the earth, and there were gnats on man and beast. All the dust of the earth became gnats through all the land of Egypt. 18The magicians tried with their secret arts to bring forth gnats, but they could not; so there were gnats on man and beast. 19Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

Mission accomplished, right? God said Pharaoh would not let the people go without compulsion, God said He would harden Pharaoh's heart and we see above he acted as such as his heart was hardened.

So the question is what kind of free will did Pharaoh exercise during the deliverance of Israel by God chapters of the book of Exodus?

If one wants to answer this a different way...Did Pharaoh choose to do what he did?

My opinion is this:

Rom 9:18-22 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

God uses some people to fulfil his grand purpose. If they are good, he has mercy on them, if they are evil he hardens them. The ones He uses for evil purposes, like Pharoah, are people who have resisted his drawing, He "has endured [these] with much patience" the vessels of wrath.

Judas was such a vessel, a vessel of wrath, Jesus said of him, "have not I chosen 12 of you and one of you is a devil". There are people alive today who are devils, but God hardens them so they will not believe. Why was Judas hardened? He was a thief (according to scripture).

This is farther show in the following verse regarding the end times:

2Th 2:10-12 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So you see it is our choices that we made that shape our destiny, and whether God will use us for a good or damnable [hardening] purpose.
 
Upvote 0

Not David

I'm back!
Apr 6, 2018
7,356
5,235
25
USA
✟231,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
It would seem the Apostle Paul’s interpretation would differ somewhat.

Romans 9: NASB

15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
The "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy" comes from Exodus 33:19 which talks about God allowing some Israelites to live and others to die, in no way it talks about salvation or predestination.

The whole thing about the vessel is based in Jeremiah 18 which talks about God deciding to destroy the Kingdom of Judah for its apostasy.
It seems like someone else is the one who misinterprets Paul's interpretation.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
  • Like
Reactions: Hazelelponi
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I hope someone pointed out the first chapter...the answer is right there.

Let me rephrase. I no longer have this very good question, that I've heard people ask in our bible study, if I read through from chapter 1.

I suppose I might well still have the question even reading through, except that because of reading through in other books also, I learned the overall way that works from chapter 1 showing us something that then leads to the thing in chapter 3.
Please share. I’m intrigued.
 
Upvote 0