Demons - real or not?

I hope other people are going to take the time to read the following arguments i will respond to.

JacksBratt said:

There are many who attend church, pray, read the bible... and are not Christians. You are not saved by going to church, mouthing prayers or reading the bible. You are saved by accepting Christ.

Click to expand...

So why are they at church, praying, reading the bible, and just doing every single category that defines worship then -- if this isn't proof that they believe? Since doing good is meaningless to God, then what else is evidence of "believing in him" other than doing all of that?

Yes.. there probably was Christians among them... However, in the end.. if they believed in Christ.. and admitted their sins... then.... sad but true.. they would be saved.... based on the biblical scriptures and words of Christ..

Was not a thief saved on the cross? A man, condemned to death by men but ascending to paradise with his savior.

Click to expand...

So there "probably was" now. So for those christians who voted for kids as young as 8 years old to be burned alive because of thinking witches exist -- they go straight to heaven. No punishment at all.

Again.. it is not how evil our actions are... nor is it how righteous our actions are... We are all sinners and all sinners go to hell..

If you accept Christ's gift of salvation, believe on His name and admit you are a sinner... then..... you are saved... no matter what men think.. no matter what the world calls you or convicts you of... God will cover any sin with His blood if the person admits their sin and repents. Period.

Click to expand...

So then a Christian Nazi who killed hundreds of jews by either starvation, shooting them in cold blood, rape, or stuffing them in gas chambers and ovens is going to heaven instantly just all based on his acceptance of christ. While his jewish victims ranging from toddler to old age are still going to hell after their murder?

Well...... GET OVER YOURSELF.... You don't make the rules and God said that the only people who will be in heaven are those that believe in Him and His work... So... that is the way it is..

Don't like it.... take it up with Him..

Click to expand...

I think it should be obvious to you that I'm telling you that your understanding of salvation and this whole concept you have of God is completely wrong.
Nevertheless, who made the laws is redundant in this argument. It's how you can rationally say that this god is good, just, holy and righteous based on your views on the afterlife.

JacksBratt said:

Can you explain what you mean?

Click to expand...

I am not interested. I might be interested if you would engage in meaningful dialogue with me and what I have already said to you.

Cis.jd said:

So why are they at church, praying, reading the bible, and just doing every single category that defines worship then -- if this isn't proof that they believe? Since doing good is meaningless to God, then what else is evidence of "believing in him" other than doing all of that?

Click to expand...

Well, I think that I have confused you. Doing good is the evidence that you believe. However.. not all people who do good are believers.

Let's say that you know someone and they are the average Joe... Then, they get saved and they are a new person... more giving, more caring, more generous, more personable, more forgiving... That is the fruit of the spirit and evidence of salvation.

However, there are those that are just like this.. caring, giving and forgiving etc.. and they think that they are "good enough" to enter heaven. They think that this is what it takes. They think that "no loving God would condemn someone like this".

They think that "good people go to heaven"... But... that's not what Jesus said.

Cis.jd said:

So there "probably was" now. So for those christians who voted for kids as young as 8 years old to be burned alive because of thinking witches exist -- they go straight to heaven. No punishment at all.

Click to expand...

Yep... if they truly are believers in Christ and have admitted that they are sinners and accepted the free gift of salvation..

And, yes, there probably was Christians involved.. as well as non Christians... we can never know for sure.. I find it hard to believe, like you do.. that a Christian could do this... But.. God forgives all sins and if they were saved.. then they were saved and it is not our decision.

They will be judged by God, not us.

God is a supremely just and righteous judge and nobody will be standing in hell and saying "this is not fair".

Nobody will be pointing their fingers at another and saying.. "they don't belong here".

Cis.jd said:

So then a Christian Nazi who killed hundreds of jews by either starvation, shooting them in cold blood, rape, or stuffing them in gas chambers and ovens is going to heaven instantly just all based on his acceptance of christ. While his jewish victims ranging from toddler to old age are still going to hell after their murder?

Click to expand...

Firstly, I don't think any "Christian" would be raping, starving or shooting in cold blood. The only remote way that this could happen is if they were ordered to do it by a superior officer or were oblivious to their actions... Even still.. I highly doubt it.

Secondly.. If one of these people who starved, raped and shot Jews.. got down on their knees and accepted that what they did was wrong.. and asked Christ to save them.... then... they would be saved.

Thirdly... As I have stated before.. any human who denies Christ as the messiah..will not receive eternal life... No matter if they die in their sleep, died killing an evil Nazi, died helping Miss Daisy walk across the street. Or, died in the holocaust.

Cis.jd said:

I think it should be obvious to you that I'm telling you that your understanding of salvation and this whole concept you have of God is completely wrong.

Click to expand...

Oh, I understand that this is what you are telling me.

I think that you understand that I disagree..
Salvation is a free gift, given to anyone who asks for it and believes in Christ as their savior...No matter what their list of sins. No matter what the level of the evil that they have done..

Salvation is not given to anyone who denies Christ. Period.

You don't get saved by going to church. You don't get saved by reading the bible. You don't get saved because you got an award for being the kindest person in your city. You don't get saved by feeding the poor. You don't get saved by giving an offering to the church. You don't get saved by being killed by a Nazi because you are Jewish. You don't get saved by being a Jew. You don't get saved by being a Catholic. You don't get saved by being a Pentecostal. You don't get saved by being any of the Christian denominations.

You don't get saved because you were the son or daughter of a preacher. You don't get saved by driving the speed limit your whole life. You don't get saved by giving your entire life savings to some homeless guy. You don't get saved by saving a drowning person. You don't get saved by saving a forest. You don't get saved by saving your virginity until marriage.

Do you get it now? You only get saved by admitting that you are a sinner and that Christ is your savior... and asking Him for salvation and to forgive your sins and come into your heart.

Cis.jd said:

Nevertheless, who made the laws is redundant in this argument.

Click to expand...

It is most certainly not "redundant" as to who made the laws. Otherwise we could all make our own law.. We could make any old thing be the requirement for salvation..

What Christ said is the word of God and the only thing that matters in the dealings with salvation. Jesus created all things and there is nothing created that was not created by Him... He made us.. He made the universe and He makes the rules.

In the end.. He will be the one who judges you. That... is important.

Cis.jd said:

It's how you can rationally say that this god is good, just, holy and righteous based on your views on the afterlife.

Click to expand...

How can you say that a supreme being.. our creator.. our God and most high Lord.. is not good, just and holy, when He took on human form, came down and was born as a baby, to a poor family.. existed on this earth that He created.... suffered all the hardships of this life and then bled and died for your sins....

Then refused to accept someone into heaven because they denied Him?

If you built a house for a bunch of people on an Island.. Bought the land, bought the material. Then with your own blood and sweat, built the house.. Put all kinds of luxuries in it.. a hot tub, a pool, an ensuite in each bedroom. Walk in fridge, huge big screen TV. Pool table, fire places, superb sound system, double car heated garage with shop. ATV's, Snowmobiles, Bass boat and trailer... the whole nine yards....

You build it for these people and all that they have to do for you to allow them to use it for the rest of their life.. is to come to you and say.. "wow, you built a great house for us.. thanks. We don't deserve such luxury. Thank you so much."

What would you do to those that say "Nah.. I don't believe it.. You must have had someone else help you.. someone else paid for it.. You didn't do this.... Step aside and let me in"?

Would you let them in? Or, turn them around and send them down the road?

Serving Zion said:

I am not interested. I might be interested if you would engage in meaningful dialogue with me and what I have already said to you.

Click to expand...

Well, that's odd. I would think that if someone makes a statement and it is not understood, that one would like to take the time to make it understood.

What's the point of taking the time to say something if it is not worth explaining?

JacksBratt said:

Well, I think that I have confused you. Doing good is the evidence that you believe. However.. not all people who do good are believers.

Click to expand...

Well yes you are confusing me because you are self contradicting yourself. You've been saying that doing good is nothing.

"Getting to heaven is not "how good you are" It is also, not "how bad you are".
This is what you said. Now you are saying "well doing good proves you believe in Jesus". Come on.
Not only are you flip flopping but you are showing how close minded and ignorant you are about anything outside your neighborhood.

Yep... if they truly are believers in Christ and have admitted that they are sinners and accepted the free gift of salvation..

And, yes, there probably was Christians involved.. as well as non Christians... we can never know for sure.. I find it hard to believe, like you do.. that a Christian could do this... But.. God forgives all sins and if they were saved.. then they were saved and it is not our decision.

Click to expand...

So what about those christians involved? What kind of Just and loving God would just have their sins go out unpunished or leave their victims with no justice?

They will be judged by God, not us.

Thirdly... As I have stated before.. any human who denies Christ as the messiah..will not receive eternal life... No matter if they die in their sleep, died killing an evil Nazi, died helping Miss Daisy walk across the street. Or, died in the holocaust.

Click to expand...

So the Jews during the Holocaust went to hell -- man you are sick.

Well, now you've admitted that you believe in an evil god. Apparently there is no compassion, no understanding.. it's all just vanity with this god. So from now on whenever you are asked to justify morality, you can't say anything because this "god" of yours murders people who do not worship him, even if these people were good and murdered violently in their lives.

You here do not preach the gospel, you preach an ultimatum. You are telling the world a horrible news that they were created to submit or perish. No one asked to be created in this "prison" yet here we all are and we have only one choice which is to worship this god. If you can't understand how that sounds like and still think these are attributes of a loving God that we should take morals from, then you are completely senseless.

Cis.jd said:

Well yes you are confusing me because you are self contradicting yourself. You've been saying that doing good is nothing.

"Getting to heaven is not "how good you are" It is also, not "how bad you are".
This is what you said. Now you are saying "well doing good proves you believe in Jesus". Come on.
Not only are you flip flopping but you are showing how close minded and ignorant you are about anything outside your neighborhood.

Click to expand...

Let me make it simpler... You cannot get to heaven unless you believe in Christ, admit that you are a sinner, accept that you can do nothing of your own power to pay for your sins, believe that Christ died for your sins and paid the price, ask for this gift of salvation.

You cannot get to heaven by being nice, good, kind, loving, generous, sympathetic, serving or forgiving.

Yes, these things are desirable in a Christian. Your not much of a Christian if these things are not evident in your life. This is why we say that this is evidence of a transformation in a person as they have become a new creature and these characteristics are now observed in the new Christian.

People who are, of their own power and determination or just their natural character.. are nice, kind, loving, generous, sympathetic, serving and forgiving... are still not going to heaven.

No matter how much you think that this is not fair or just.... it's just plain and simple fact..Christ said that you must believe in His name.. He also said that if you deny Him..He will deny you.

So, no matter what happens in your life.. whatever you believe is going to make you escape damnation... its not going to matter. People all through history, have faced awful situations.. yet.. each one will be judged on their heart toward their savior.. not how badly they suffered.


Also, no matter how horrid someone is. No matter what evil they have done. No matter how disgusting of a human they have been... If they submit to Christ... admit these awful deeds... ask for forgiveness... repent and ask for salvation... they will receive it.

That is an awesome God. Every human is a sinner and not one will be denied salvation. If they ask.

Cis.jd said:

So what about those christians involved? What kind of Just and loving God would just have their sins go out unpunished or leave their victims with no justice?

Click to expand...

Ahhhhh, there you have it. This is the hook you are caught on. You want them to PAY. You don't think that they should "Get away with it".

"why should their sins go unpunished"?

It is so human of us to expect, desire and demand punishment for those who commit awful sins. Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Al Capone and others.

But, that is the thing. Here on earth they should face their punishment.. I'm all for it... Do the Crime.. do the time... Yep.

However, in eternity.. Jesus blood covers all sin. So.... even though we don't think it is fair...even though we demand our justice. Even though we think these things are just shoved under the rug while we scream "VENGEANCE"..... God says different. There is no punishment for sins of the saved.

The bible says:

Romans 12:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

This means that all the sins that I have committed will not be punished. I will receive no punishment because... Christ was punished already for all my sins.
Therefore, when I ask for salvation and forgiveness.... I am washed white as snow and, in the eyes of God.. I am as pure as Christ.

There are many verses that describe this fact. Here is one:

Romans 4:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

If any of us, even those that sin the least, was made to pay a punishment for our sins... it would be one thing... death.

So, if your going to ask for others to pay.. you would also have someone asking that you pay too... and.. we would all face eternal death.

JacksBratt said:

Let me make it simpler... You cannot get to heaven unless you believe in Christ, admit that you are a sinner, accept that you can do nothing of your own power to pay for your sins, believe that Christ died for your sins and paid the price, ask for this gift of salvation.

You cannot get to heaven by being nice, good, kind, loving, generous, sympathetic, serving or forgiving.

Yes, these things are desirable in a Christian. Your not much of a Christian if these things are not evident in your life. This is why we say that this is evidence of a transformation in a person as they have become a new creature and these characteristics are now observed in the new Christian.

People who are, of their own power and determination or just their natural character.. are nice, kind, loving, generous, sympathetic, serving and forgiving... are still not going to heaven.

No matter how much you think that this is not fair or just.... it's just plain and simple fact..Christ said that you must believe in His name.. He also said that if you deny Him..He will deny you.

So, no matter what happens in your life.. whatever you believe is going to make you escape damnation... its not going to matter. People all through history, have faced awful situations.. yet.. each one will be judged on their heart toward their savior.. not how badly they suffered.


Also, no matter how horrid someone is. No matter what evil they have done. No matter how disgusting of a human they have been... If they submit to Christ... admit these awful deeds... ask for forgiveness... repent and ask for salvation... they will receive it.

That is an awesome God. Every human is a sinner and not one will be denied salvation. If they ask.

Click to expand...

Sir you are going around in circles. I understand that this is what you believe, the problem here is that you can not defend the attributes of God being loving, just, and good by this point of view of yours that nobody good can go to heaven if they don't believe in Jesus. That means nearly every Jew during the Holocaust went to hell after they where murdered.

The next problem in your arguments is that you can't answer directly to the point of the questions, instead you share your beliefs and assumptions towards it. Such as "where they really christian" to believers who have hurt others under misinterpretation or just plain ignorance. You being in disbelief on their religious views is meaningless, because under the premise of your entire arguments they are still going to heaven with out paying anything to their victims.

For example, that christian march i told you about. In where this church marched for christ and caused heavy traffic that people who needed immediate medical attention died. You are telling me that these Christians are just going to shoot up to heaven and the lives that were cut short from their ignorance can possibly go to hell? And in your bottom sentence you say this is an Awesome god? You can't be that serious deluded in your false doctrine to be that close minded in not seeing how irrational that sounds.

JacksBratt said:

Ahhhhh, there you have it. This is the hook you are caught on. You want them to PAY. You don't think that they should "Get away with it".

"why should their sins go unpunished"?

It is so human of us to expect, desire and demand punishment for those who commit awful sins. Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Al Capone and others.

But, that is the thing. Here on earth they should face their punishment.. I'm all for it... Do the Crime.. do the time... Yep.

However, in eternity.. Jesus blood covers all sin. So.... even though we don't think it is fair...even though we demand our justice. Even though we think these things are just shoved under the rug while we scream "VENGEANCE"..... God says different. There is no punishment for sins of the saved.

The bible says:

Romans 12:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

This means that all the sins that I have committed will not be punished. I will receive no punishment because... Christ was punished already for all my sins.
Therefore, when I ask for salvation and forgiveness.... I am washed white as snow and, in the eyes of God.. I am as pure as Christ.

There are many verses that describe this fact. Here is one:

Romans 4:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

If any of us, even those that sin the least, was made to pay a punishment for our sins... it would be one thing... death.

So, if your going to ask for others to pay.. you would also have someone asking that you pay too... and.. we would all face eternal death.

Click to expand...

Yes, in order for you to understand that goto youtube and type in dark web videos or snuff films and then come back.

Let me give you example. There is this video around the net named 3 guys and a hammer. Which is 3 men who found a random person outside and murdered him with a hammer.

There is another report. Two boys abducted a 3 year old boy, they took him outside and tortured the 3 year old to death. The torture not only was brutal beating of the baby, but they also mutilated his genitals. The corpse of that 3 year old was found on train tracks.

Now lets say, down the line of their lives they accept Jesus. Just like every serial killer.. you are telling me Jesus, the righteous judge, is going to just go "i forgive you, you can now go to heaven"? Come on.

Cis.jd said:

So the Jews during the Holocaust went to hell -- man you are sick.

Click to expand...

Well, some went to hell and some didn't.

Cis.jd said:

Well, now you've admitted that you believe in an evil god. Apparently there is no compassion, no understanding.. it's all just vanity with this god. So from now on whenever you are asked to justify morality, you can't say anything because this "god" of yours murders people who do not worship him, even if these people were good and murdered violently in their lives.

Click to expand...

First, God does not send anyone to hell. God does not "murder" anyone.. These people choose to go to hell. Everyone starts on the road to hell as a sinner. We all have freewill..

God is just saying "Hey Buddy.. I died for your sins.. If you believe me.. just say so and you can get off this train that is going to hell".

And, if you say "Hey Jesus.. thanks so much. Please forgive me... Grab my hand and get me off of this train"..... He will

If you say "I don't believe you.. it's a trick... you don't exist, there is no God....your a myth.. you were just a man.. there is no hell.... whatever"..

Then.. by your own choice.. you will ride the train to the end of the line.... hell and eternal separation from God.

Secondly......It is not "vanity" with God.. It's quite the opposite.. It's humbleness.

Those that humble themselves before God will be saved.

Those with pride and arrogance and think they can do it all themselves.. they will be lost.

Cis.jd said:

You here do not preach the gospel, you preach an ultimatum. You are telling the world a horrible news that they were created to submit or perish. No one asked to be created in this "prison" yet here we all are and we have only one choice which is to worship this god. If you can't understand how that sounds like and still think these are attributes of a loving God that we should take morals from, then you are completely senseless.

Click to expand...

Really?

Well, here is the gospel in a nutshell:

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Please show me where I am in error. Please show me any scripture where people will not be given salvation if they ask for it. Please show me any scripture that tells of people who don't believe being saved and having eternal life.

Cis.jd said:

Sir you are going around in circles. I understand that this is what you believe, the problem here is that you can not defend the attributes of God being loving, just, and good by this point of view of yours that nobody good can go to heaven if they don't believe in Jesus. That means nearly every Jew during the Holocaust went to hell after they where murdered.

Click to expand...

Please show me any place in the bible where it states that you can go to heaven even if you don't believe. PLEASE.

Cis.jd said:

The next problem in your arguments is that you can't answer directly to the point of the questions, instead you share your beliefs and assumptions towards it. Such as "where they really christian" to believers who have hurt others under misinterpretation or just plain ignorance. You being in disbelief on their religious views is meaningless, because under the premise of your entire arguments they are still going to heaven with out paying anything to their victims.

Click to expand...

Please show me any scripture that states that people will not be forgiven form any sin. PLEASE.

Cis.jd said:

For example, that christian march i told you about. In where this church marched for christ and caused heavy traffic that people who needed immediate medical attention died. You are telling me that these Christians are just going to shoot up to heaven and the lives that were cut short from their ignorance can possibly go to hell?

Click to expand...

Please show me any scripture that says that if you die by someone else's hand.. that person is responsible for your eternal life. Please.

Cis.jd said:

And in your bottom sentence you say this is an Awesome god? You can't be that serious deluded in your false doctrine to be that close minded in not seeing how irrational that sounds.

Click to expand...

Yep.. I can.

Please show me scripture on this "gospel" of yours where people go to heaven based on the way they died, who killed them or what torturous method was used or under what objective they were killed.

Please show me any scripture that proves this "gospel" of yours where people who don't believe in God, deny Jesus, deny the cross... can have their sins forgiven and stand before Him as righteous which is only possible because of the cross, Jesus and the God that they deny... Please.

Cis.jd said:

Yes, in order for you to understand that goto youtube and type in dark web videos or snuff films and then come back.

Let me give you example. There is this video around the net named 3 guys and a hammer. Which is 3 men who found a random person outside and murdered him with a hammer.

There is another report. Two boys abducted a 3 year old boy, they took him outside and tortured the 3 year old to death. The torture not only was brutal beating of the baby, but they also mutilated his genitals. The corpse of that 3 year old was found on train tracks.

Now lets say, down the line of their lives they accept Jesus. Just like every serial killer.. you are telling me Jesus, the righteous judge, is going to just go "i forgive you, you can now go to heaven"? Come on.

Click to expand...

EXACTLY.. YEP... YEP.. for sure.. you finally got it..... That is exactly correct..

Please show me scripture to the contrary.

I know that our finite minds don't get it... We want vengeance.. we want them to pay.. we don't think that they deserve heaven...

Well, sorry it was me that has to break this to you.. but God doesn't think like us.

God will forgive them.

You don't have to like it.. The truth will continue to be the truth.. no matter how many deny it, hate it or condemn it....

JacksBratt said:

Well, some went to hell and some didn't.

Click to expand...

So now you are detracting again. Who are the ones who didn't, and why would any of them go to hell after experiencing horrible hell on earth already, by this loving awesome God?

First, God does not send anyone to hell. God does not "murder" anyone.. These people choose to go to hell. Everyone starts on the road to hell as a sinner. We all have freewill..

God is just saying "Hey Buddy.. I died for your sins.. If you believe me.. just say so and you can get off this train that is going to hell".

And, if you say "Hey Jesus.. thanks so much. Please forgive me... Grab my hand and get me off of this train"..... He will

If you say "I don't believe you.. it's a trick... you don't exist, there is no God....your a myth.. you were just a man.. there is no hell.... whatever"..

Then.. by your own choice.. you will ride the train to the end of the line.... hell and eternal separation from God.

Secondly......It is not "vanity" with God.. It's quite the opposite.. It's humbleness.

Those that humble themselves before God will be saved.

Those with pride and arrogance and think they can do it all themselves.. they will be lost.

Click to expand...

If God is sending people to hell, he is murdering them.
First of all, no one asked to be created. So how can an all loving god just create man and place them in different locations in where their cultures and households don't know him, and then hold it against them that violently that they are now doomed to suffer hell forever? That doesn't match a loving God.

That is complete vanity because apparently any good isn't cared about, it's accepting and worshiping him that does. As you said, feeding the homeless, helping old people, caring about others, being kind to others is meaningless because if you don't accept Jesus you are going to hell. Yet a person who did evil like that of the Nazi's or Salem Witch trials, can instantly have all that swept under the rug if he accepts Jesus at the end. If i were to replace "Jesus" with "Shiva" or "Allah" you would not think twice on how evil that god sounds like.

Really?

Well, here is the gospel in a nutshell:
John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Please show me where I am in error. Please show me any scripture where people will not be given salvation if they ask for it. Please show me any scripture that tells of people who don't believe being saved and having eternal life.

Click to expand...

You are working too hard to convince yourself that your arguments are making sense that you've lost track on the argument. I never denied people getting salvation. My argument is that regardless of people getting salvation, his/her sins can't just get swept under the rug and a good person, regardless of having no religious views on Jesus, isn't going to hell.

In Matt 12:32, it says you can't be forgiven if you sin against the HS in this life or the NEXT. So apparently there is a chance for forgiveness of sins in the next life. If a person is in hell, there is no chance at all for forgiveness, and if the person is in heaven then there is no chance to forgive because he is already completely clean. So before entering heaven and hell, the person is given the chance to accept christ and/or also pay for his sins.. hence we see a rational explanation for a Just, good and merciful God. Your illustration is the complete opposite, it is a god who is conceited, insecure, unjust, and vain.

Cis.jd said:

Yes, in order for you to understand that goto youtube and type in dark web videos or snuff films and then come back.

Let me give you example. There is this video around the net named 3 guys and a hammer. Which is 3 men who found a random person outside and murdered him with a hammer.

There is another report. Two boys abducted a 3 year old boy, they took him outside and tortured the 3 year old to death. The torture not only was brutal beating of the baby, but they also mutilated his genitals. The corpse of that 3 year old was found on train tracks.

Now lets say, down the line of their lives they accept Jesus. Just like every serial killer.. you are telling me Jesus, the righteous judge, is going to just go "i forgive you, you can now go to heaven"? Come on.

Click to expand...

Here is what I've discovered, having been to places where social controls are lacking: Most people who think "Oh, I'd never even think of doing that" have simply never been in a place where "that" was cheap enough and easy enough and free of consequences. Usually we live surrounded by constraints of one type or another, and those external constraints give us a facade of resistance to temptation.

If we were in a place where that facade did not exist, where there were no external constants, where "that" cost nothing but pocket money, where nobody you know or care about can possibly know you did "that," where everybody else is having a great time doing "that" and chiding you for not doing it with them, where no earthly consequence exists...oh, the temptations that will come!

If it's easy enough and cheap enough....

It's hard to believe what temptations might prove effective while we're still behind a facade of external constraints.

If there is a sin so bad that its commission is an inherent bar to salvation, is there a work so good that its commission is a golden ticket to heaven?

I don't think these "what if" questions in that regard are particularly useful.

What might be more useful is to ponder whether a mind so turned to such a direction can possibly be renewed.

Cis.jd said:

If God is sending people to hell, he is murdering them.
First of all, no one asked to be created. So how can an all loving god just create man and place them in different locations in where their cultures and households don't know him, and then hold it against them that violently that they are now doomed to suffer hell forever? That doesn't match a loving God.

Click to expand...

Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised.

But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"

The hard fact is that God is the author of morality and cannot be held to it any more than the characters of a novel can hold its author to the morality within the novel.

The fact is that God can do what He wants with what He created, and all we can do is say, "Oh, okay."

Now, with regard to your particular complaint, as an inclusivist I'd say that God's judgment takes consideration of how much someone knows of Him and how they handled that knowledge--and that God is biased toward salvation.

But there will be those persons who simply refuse to live in a universe under a sovereign God. Were they created to be that way or are they that way out of "free will?" That's not pertinent to the situation that they are that way.

Cis.jd said:

So now you are detracting again. Who are the ones who didn't, and why would any of them go to hell after experiencing horrible hell on earth already, by this loving awesome God?

Click to expand...

The ones that didn't go to heaven were those that denied Christ and His work on the Cross.

Show me some, any, scripture that indicates any reason why they would go to heaven.

Cis.jd said:

If God is sending people to hell, he is murdering them.

Click to expand...

Scripture please.

Cis.jd said:

First of all, no one asked to be created. So how can an all loving god just create man and place them in different locations in where their cultures and households don't know him, and then hold it against them that violently that they are now doomed to suffer hell forever? That doesn't match a loving God.

Click to expand...

So, being that we WERE created and WE ARE here.. is it that hard to admit that Christ also, after creating you... died for you.. as a doorway to a paradise forever?

Or are you just going to wallow in your little pity party and whine that you didn't want to be here in the first place so you should get to make your own rules?

Cis.jd said:

That is complete vanity because apparently any good isn't cared about, it's accepting and worshiping him that does. As you said, feeding the homeless, helping old people, caring about others, being kind to others is meaningless because if you don't accept Jesus you are going to hell. Yet a person who did evil like that of the Nazi's or Salem Witch trials, can instantly have all that swept under the rug if he accepts Jesus at the end. If i were to replace "Jesus" with "Shiva" or "Allah" you would not think twice on how evil that god sounds like.

Click to expand...

If "Shiva" or "Allah" actually came down and suffered and died and rose again for me and my sins...it would be a different story... but.. they didn't and they are just not GOD or god's....

As for "Vanity"..

van·i·ty
/ˈvanədē/
noun

1. 1.
   excessive pride in or admiration of one's own appearance or achievements.

What you need to realize is that "vanity" is only a sin if you are not deserving of the pride and admiration.

Since God is all powerful, all knowing and ever present.. And.. He created everything.. And He is the ruler over everything ....

Then...None of it is "excessive"

He is perfect in every way and absolutely deserving of all glory, honor, worship and respect.

Cis.jd said:

You are working too hard to convince yourself that your arguments are making sense that you've lost track on the argument. I never denied people getting salvation. My argument is that regardless of people getting salvation, his/her sins can't just get swept under the rug and a good person, regardless of having no religious views on Jesus, isn't going to hell.

Click to expand...

What about Paul.. well, er... ah.. Saul. He persecuted and killed, stoned, Christians... Then.. he became one of the greatest Christians.... Is he in heaven?

You are not working hard enough to convince me of your argument. Please show some scripture that support this idea. Please show me anything that allows the "unbeliever" into heaven.

Cis.jd said:

In Matt 12:32, it says you can't be forgiven if you sin against the HS in this life or the NEXT. So apparently there is a chance for forgiveness of sins in the next life. If a person is in hell, there is no chance at all for forgiveness, and if the person is in heaven then there is no chance to forgive because he is already completely clean. So before entering heaven and hell, the person is given the chance to accept christ and/or also pay for his sins.. hence we see a rational explanation for a Just, good and merciful God. Your illustration is the complete opposite, it is a god who is conceited, insecure, unjust, and vain.

Click to expand...

Check this commentary on Matt 12:32. :
Matthew 12:32 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

JacksBratt said:

EXACTLY.. YEP... YEP.. for sure.. you finally got it..... That is exactly correct..

Please show me scripture to the contrary.

I know that our finite minds don't get it... We want vengeance.. we want them to pay.. we don't think that they deserve heaven...

Well, sorry it was me that has to break this to you.. but God doesn't think like us.

God will forgive them.

You don't have to like it.. The truth will continue to be the truth.. no matter how many deny it, hate it or condemn it....

Click to expand...

i understand you think God will forgive them, but the argument is the fallacy of god being a loving and just god when he allows people who have done atrocities like that to enter heaven because they accepted christ. While good people who didn't believe in Jesus immediately go to hell.

Additionally you are so absorbed in defending this fallacy that you can't even see the basis of the argument. This is all about the case of an intermediate state before heaven and hell, and how this old theology supports and shows rationality to God's attributes of being just and righteous. Because this intermediate state (Purgatory in other words) is that second chance for those non-believers to accept christ and for those sinners to pay for their sins. Not instantly get a free pass or just get damned.

In the Bible we see an intermediate state when Jesus talks about the unpardonable sin which is not forgiven even in the next life(Matt 12:32) - so logically there is a time during this next life in where the person gets a chance for forgiveness, and the chance to accept christ. We also see another aspect in where the person has to pay the last penny (Matt 5:26). Hence he does not sweep sins under the rug, he will justify what you have done to others. We also have verses in just believing in Jesus doesn't get you into heaven (matt 19:24, Matt 7:21).

All of that shows that even non-believers can go to heaven, because in the next life they are finally introduced to God himself. Now in connection to this thread, demons, I use this scriptural basis to formulate my theory that maybe demons are also the spirits of people who refused to go to heaven. People who just misotheistic, for whatever reasons (they were born in poverty and angry at god for allow it, he didn't do anything when the Nazi shoved his/her family in the oven.. whatever). So since they are not in heaven, and in his presence (which is our source of life), their souls eventually get corrupted hence becoming demonic -- this part is a theory at the end.

RDKirk said:

Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised.

But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"

The hard fact is that God is the author of morality and cannot be held to it any more than the characters of a novel can hold its author to the morality within the novel.

The fact is that God can do what He wants with what He created, and all we can do is say, "Oh, okay."

Now, with regard to your particular complaint, as an inclusivist I'd say that God's judgment takes consideration of how much someone knows of Him and how they handled that knowledge--and that God is biased toward salvation.

But there will be those persons who simply refuse to live in a universe under a sovereign God. Were they created to be that way or are they that way out of "free will?" That's not pertinent to the situation that they are that way.

Click to expand...

I'm not here talking back at god, i'm talking back at what I think is false imagery of god. I don't think he is unjust, vain, insecure, and that self-absorbed.

The whole line of "we are human, he is god.. we can't understand" is an argment people have used to compensate or rationalize their arguments. If i used a different god such as Shiva, Zeus, in the same context as to how YHWH/Jesus is being used in the quotes I am arguing with, you see that as evil and that whole "well, who are we to say when he is god" will not be rational.

There is no way any god can be seen as good, just, and holy under the descriptions i've been arguing about.

JacksBratt said:

The ones that didn't go to heaven were those that denied Christ and His work on the Cross.

Show me some, any, scripture that indicates any reason why they would go to heaven.

Click to expand...

Because in the Bible, the only unforgivable sin is the sin against the HS.

Scripture please.

Click to expand...

You need scripture for that, are you serious? I hope you are not going to go anymore levels of absurdity by saying "well, there is no scripture about hell being death" so it means you are wrong. That is why the Bible calls it "the second death".

So, being that we WERE created and WE ARE here.. is it that hard to admit that Christ also, after creating you... died for you.. as a doorway to a paradise forever?

Or are you just going to wallow in your little pity party and whine that you didn't want to be here in the first place so you should get to make your own rules?

Click to expand...

Well you are here telling me this god is just and good, and not overly vain. So why would a good loving god make somebody under an ultimatum? If i told you that Shiva made you and you are here to worship and serve him other wise he will send you to a place in where you will suffer for ever.. BUT hey he died for you so you can go into paradise if you follow. What does that sound like other than a sadist?

If "Shiva" or "Allah" actually came down and suffered and died and rose again for me and my sins...it would be a different story... but.. they didn't and they are just not GOD or god's....

Click to expand...

Oh, so unless they do something for you then it's evil.

As for "Vanity"..
van·i·ty
/ˈvanədē/
noun
o

1. 1.
   excessive pride in or admiration of one's own appearance or achievements.

What you need to realize is that "vanity" is only a sin if you are not deserving of the pride and admiration. Since God is all powerful, all knowing and ever present.. And.. He created everything.. And He is the ruler over everything ....

Click to expand...

Now this is completely silly.

JacksBratt said:

Let me make it simpler... You cannot get to heaven unless you believe in Christ, admit that you are a sinner, accept that you can do nothing of your own power to pay for your sins, believe that Christ died for your sins and paid the price, ask for this gift of salvation.

Click to expand...

That's strange, cos I thought Jesus said the opposite.-
Matt18v2Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. 3“Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.…

According to you, entry to Heaven requires an adult theologically trained mind, but maybe Jesus just got it wrong.