Is all that is required for salvation is believing in Christ and Him crucified?

112358 · Jan 8, 2019

Jason0047 said:
No. In Acts of the Apostles 2:38: Repentance (seeking the Lord's forgiveness) is what actually removes the actual sin. Baptism is not for the removal of sins themselves but it is for the removal of sins from one's conscience.

If this is true, then why did Peter not say it this way:
"Repent for the remission of sins, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ..."

Not to mention that this is (I think?) the first time I have come across someone who says repentance is what removes sin. Most people say that it is at the point we believe that sins are forgiven.

The fact is that Peter was carrying out Christ's orders verbatim. He told the apostles what to do and how to do it:
1) Go out to the whole world and make disciples
How Lord?
2) Baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and HS
3) Teach them to observe all the things I have taught you
Completely aligned with Mark 16:16. Completely aligned with Acts 2:38. Completely aligned with 1 Peter 3:21, where regardless of how you interpret the clarifying information that follows, it is without question BAPTISM that Peter says now saves us.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 8, 2019

112358 said:
Not to mention that this is (I think?) the first time I have come across someone who says repentance is what removes sin. Most people say that it is at the point we believe that sins are forgiven.

NEITHER is right.

Oldmantook · Jan 8, 2019

Danthemailman said:
TGhat statement is the epitome of irony.

If the shoe fits....I showed you precisely where you commit logical fallacies and suggested you brush up on the study of logic. If you choose not to - your prerogative.

Danthemailman said:
What I do is properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. I do not ignore works/obedience, but put them in their proper place. Fruit of salvation, but not the root of it.

You misstate my position. I never wrote works is the cause of salvation. Works are indeed the fruit of salvation. That is why works in the life of the believer are requisite. No fruit means no salvation. Works are the evidence of genuine faith. It does not mean that the person was never saved. Only that his/her faith did not persevere and became a dead faith as James asserts

Danthemailman said:
Apparently you misinterpret James 2:24 and teach that justified by works means saved by works. Poor exegesis. James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). *Hermeneutics.

One is justified by works because works are the demonstration of saving faith. James questioned if you have faith where is your works? One cannot possess just a "cognitive" faith. One cannot say that "I was saved on a certain day" - and have no works to show for it.

Danthemailman said:
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

Works is the substance of faith, therefore one cannot discount works. We agree that works is the fruit. No fruit is the evidence of no faith. I assume you would say that no fruit is the evidence that the person was never a believer. I say that the person was indeed a believer because HE HAD FAITH (which is what you emphasize) to begin with but over the course of his life demonstrated no works and thus his faith became dead.

Danthemailman said:
"Faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith. Simple!

I never wrote nor implied that a living faith is dead until it produces works. A living faith results upon being regenerated by the spirit upon repentance and the trusting in Jesus' blood for the cleansing of one's sins. That living faith however can become dead upon no longer believing, no longer obeying. It demonstrates that he no longer has works that demonstrate repentant faith. He had saving faith because faith bestowed by God is what saves isn't it? He then lost his faith/dead faith when he failed to produce works in his life that demonstrated continued faith. That is why we are commanded to persevere and continue in the faith. It is indeed simple.

Danthemailman said:
This is the very heart of your fallacy and the end result is a "works based" false gospel.

And so Jesus is mistaken to judge the 7 Churches in Revelation based on their works, or lack thereof. No thanks, I'd rather heed the warnings of Jesus.

Danthemailman said:
Here you agree with me, but you also accused me of poor exegesis and previously you said that belief AND obedience BOTH are a requisite salvation and also that Paul included works in his gospel message. You also misinterpreted John 3:36 to teach that belief AND obedience is required for salvation. You teach works salvation and don't even realize it!

Quite simple really. Belief or rather BELIEVING is required for salvation. If you knew the Greek or even bothered to open an interlinear, you would discover that "belief" is often times parsed as a present tense verb. Thus in verses like Jn 3:16, God so loved the world...that whoever is "believing" in Him should not perish.... Ongoing belief is necessary for eternal life. One can initially believe and receive eternal life but later on, for whatever reason no longer believe and consequently no longer possess eternal life. Obedience is the evidence that one believes. In Jn 3:36 he who believes has eternal life (True) as nothing else is required but trusting upon the cleansing blood of Christ. However, the verse does not end there as the additional clause states BUT he WHO DOES NOT OBEY shall not see life.... One can believe BUT not obey. Belief results in salvation BUT disobedience results in the loss of salvation. And that is precisely why both belief and obedience are required for salvation.

Danthemailman said:
Keep reading. Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of through His Spirit who dwells in you.

So how do you explain Rom 8:13? You have ignored it. If you or I as a Christian, live according to the flesh, will we die, or was Paul lying?

Danthemailman said:
More proof you teach salvation by works. I often hear works-salvationists quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved by obedience/works. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. *If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, then he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

Again, I never wrote that works is the cause of salvation; instead it should be the result. However what "should be" is not always the case since believers always have the choice to disobey God. I already wrote above what the BUT means. Belief results in being saved; works/obedience results in continuing to be saved. Answer me this simple question if you will? If you disobey God by taking the mark of the beast, will you still be saved? Yes or No??

Danthemailman said:
The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

Did you read the original Greek? Why do you rely on English translations without doing your due diligence and examining the original text for yourself? If you even bothered to do so, you would discover that this verse contains two different words - pisteuōn which means believing and apeithōn which means disobeying. The word apeithōn is a compound word. The prefix a means "not" and the verb peithōn means "obeying" when used in the active sense - or "to be persuaded" when used in the passive sense. In Jn 3:36, the verb is parsed in the active present tense, so "disobey" would be the correct literal translation.

Danthemailman said:
The point of Hebrews 5:9 is that only believers obey Him and just as you said, "unbelievers unregenerate by the Spirit are incapable of ongoing obedience." Believers have eternal life (John 5:24) and obey God BECAUSE they are saved and not in order to become or remained saved. Ongoing obedience is not forced or legalistic for those who are truly born of God. (1 John 3:7-10)

Yes believers are capable of obeying God because they are regenerated/saved. HOWEVER you can always choose to disobey God can't you? Or, are you sinless and perfect? What do you suppose happens if you sow to the flesh?

Danthemailman said:
Works-salvationists have no eternal security. If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? The answer to this question will demonstrate exactly what you are trusting in for salvation. Christ alone or works. The answer for me is CHRIST ALONE. (Romans 3:24-28)

Jesus would judge you and me on our belief and continued obedience. Obedience demonstrates saving faith and without continued obedience, one is not assured of salvation. Again you posit a false dilemma fallacy. It is not either Christ alone or works. Salvation is described in Scripture as having past, present and future tenses. Faith in Christ alone results in past or initial salvation. Present and future salvation depend upon our continued obedience. The belief in Christ and our continued obedience is required for salvation.

Danthemailman said:
We are not talking about sinless, perfect obedience here.

Neither am I. The germane question is: Are we walking in darkness (1 Jn 1:6)? Or are we walking in the light (1 Jn 1:7)?

Danthemailman said:
Believers are not 100% obedient 100% of the time and can certainly disobey at times, yet those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9-10) Chronic disobedience would be practicing sin and not righteousness, which is characteristic of children of the devil, not children of God.

We always have the CHOICE whether to practice righteousness or to practice sinning. Unbelievers have no choice but to practice sin since they are unregenerated. Do you suppose the prodigal son had the choice to practice sin or practice righteousness? What did he choose to do? What happened to him? As a result, Jesus stated he was DEAD. Jesus stated he was made alive AGAIN. Just how do you suppose he was made alive AGAIN? I'll let you wrestle with that one.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 8, 2019

112358 said:
If this is true, then why did Peter not say it this way:
"Repent for the remission of sins, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ..."

The English Bible was not originally written in Modern English. While I believe the KJV is the perfect and divinely inspired Word of God, it was written in 1600's English that influenced other Modern Bible Translations. There are many sayings in the KJV that are not clear that we have to figure out through careful prayer, comparing Scripture with Scripture, and by looking at the context.

You said:
Not to mention that this is (I think?) the first time I have come across someone who says repentance is what removes sin. Most people say that it is at the point we believe that sins are forgiven.

Well, I am not your average Christian. I believe both faith + works of faith are necessary for salvation (and I am not a Catholic and neither am I Anti-Trinitarian; I believe in the Godhead (Trinity), and the Bible alone as my sole authority. I just read and believe the Bible and seek not to follow others but only to follow Christ and His Word.

Most today do not know what "repentance" really means according to the Bible. I have provided 10 points in Scripture proving what it actually means (Which runs against popular opinion today).

If you are interested in checking this out with Scripture, just click on the following spoiler button.

A Biblical Case For Repentance:

At the heart, I believe the Bible teaches that repentance means, "Asking God for forgiveness" (Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin."

#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).

#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.

#8. Luke 10:13 says,
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).

#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?

#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.

Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance
(But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

You said:
The fact is that Peter was carrying out Christ's orders verbatim. He told the apostles what to do and how to do it:
1) Go out to the whole world and make disciples
How Lord?
2) Baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and HS
3) Teach them to observe all the things I have taught you
Completely aligned with Mark 16:16. Completely aligned with Acts 2:38. Completely aligned with 1 Peter 3:21, where regardless of how you interpret the clarifying information that follows, it is without question BAPTISM that Peter says now saves us.

I am currently doing a study on the commands in the New Testament. There is no doubt that baptism is a command. As a part of God's saving grace, I believe there are commands that we have to keep that relate to our salvation, and there are commands that we should do and teach other believers to obey; But if we fall short or do not have time or opportunity to do them, God will not condemn us for failing to do certain commands. For example: Do you believe God will condemn you for failing to rejoice every time someone persecutes you falsely or says evil things about you wrongfully? (See Matthew 5:11-12). For there is a sin unto death, and a sin not unto death (1 John 5:16-17). There are also hidden or secret faults, too (Psalms 19:12). For example: If you went over the speed limit by 5mph, are you condemned to hell? Surely not. One is not violating a major law of the land where it involves extreme punishment and it also does not violate the law to love your neighbor. Granted, if we are in a school zone, this could be debatable. But the point here is that not all sin is the same. There are degrees of sin. There are even unforgivable sins.

The physical remission of sins happens when we repent (seek forgiveness) and believe in Jesus as our Savior (believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf for salvation). The remission of sins by baptism is the remitting of sins of our conscience. It is a picture or symbol of the actual remission of sins by Christ's death on our behalf. The going down into the water is symbolic of his death, and the rising up out of the water is symbolic of his resurrection. God does not save us in our act of water baptism. This was the normal way they introduced salvation. But it was not baptism that saved because Cornelius was saved before he was water baptized. The thief on the cross was also saved without water baptism, as well.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 8, 2019

112358 said:
If this is true, then why did Peter not say it this way:
"Repent for the remission of sins, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ..."

Not to mention that this is (I think?) the first time I have come across someone who says repentance is what removes sin. Most people say that it is at the point we believe that sins are forgiven.

The fact is that Peter was carrying out Christ's orders verbatim. He told the apostles what to do and how to do it:
1) Go out to the whole world and make disciples
How Lord?
2) Baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and HS
3) Teach them to observe all the things I have taught you
Completely aligned with Mark 16:16. Completely aligned with Acts 2:38. Completely aligned with 1 Peter 3:21, where regardless of how you interpret the clarifying information that follows, it is without question BAPTISM that Peter says now saves us.

Paul says he came not to baptize but to preach the gospel (See 1 Corinthians 1:17). So if baptism was for salvation, then why is Paul leaving out an important part of our salvation?

ladodgers6 · Jan 8, 2019

Sorry, I want to share this with you. I am working on James 2.

1. The Gospel of Jesus Christ—
We believe that the Gospel is the good news that the Lord Jesus Christ has suffered and died for the sins of the world!

The Proclamation of the Gospel to All the World: Because of His infinite love for the fallen sons and daughters of Adam, God Himself in the person of our Lord Jesus Christ has come into this sin-darkened world, lived a sinless, spotless life by perfectly obeying and fulfilling the Law of God, and then He suffered and died for our sins, in our place, as our atoning sacrifice upon the cross of Calvary. As the Second Adam, our Lord took upon Himself the legal guilt, punishment, penalty, suffering and death which we all deserve. The curses pronounced at the Fall of the First Adam, fell in full measure upon the Second Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ. In Christ, God has provided a sin bearer, substitute, and redeemer for God's people. He alone as the divine Son of God could have offered to the holy Law of God a righteousness equal to its broadest demands for perfect righteousness.

1.) Active obedience — The Law of God requires perfect obedience to all of its holy commandments, and absolute holiness and sinlessness of life. This perfect righteousness Jesus performed for us as the sinless Second Adam.

2.) Passive obedience — The Law of God also requires punishment and death for all who sin and come short of its righteous demands. This legal penalty Jesus bore for us when He suffered and died for us, in our place at Calvary. The guilt of all the world was reckoned and imputed to Him while He hung upon the cross.

Imputed Righteousness: the rock of offense — Jesus Christ: the meritorious cause (or the legal basis) of acceptance with God: In His sinless life and atoning death on the cross, God has provided a divine legal substitute, legal representative, and Second Adam for every fallen child of Adam. He was reckoned and treated as a sinner in the eyes of Divine justice so that by God's unmerited grace alone, in Christ alone, salvation from the penalty of sin has been made available for all the world. In Christ God has provided a ransom for all of humanity by paying the legal debt of all. The Lord Jesus Christ lived a sinless life, suffered and died as an atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world, arose again from the dead, and ascended into Heaven where He ever lives as the one High Priest and mediator who intercedes in the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to save all who call upon His name for forgiveness and eternal life.

ladodgers6 · Jan 8, 2019

James 2

“Paul clearly teaches that we are justified by faith and not by works (Rom. 1:17). …James declares, 'Was not Abraham our father justified by works' (2:21). …James and Paul would be contradictory if there were speaking about the same thing, but there are many indications in the text that they are not. Paul is speaking about justification before God, while James is talking about justification before humans.

This is indicated by the fact that James stressed that we should 'show' (2:18) our faith. It must be something that can be seen by others in 'works' (2:18-20). Further, James acknowledged that Abraham was justified before God by faith, not works, when he said, 'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness' (2:23). When he adds that Abraham was 'justified by works' (v. 21), he is speaking of what Abraham did that could be seen by people, namely offer his son Isaac on the altar (2:21-22).

…Paul is stressing the root of justification (faith); James is stressing the fruit of justification (works). …works as the proof of faith.”

So the works of the believer is the result of our Salvation in Christ Alone (Faith Alone), not the cause of it!

Hope this helps???

Through Faith Alone apart from works, because of Christ Alone!

Titus 3:5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

ladodgers6 · Jan 8, 2019

This is what I confess, from the Heidelberg Catechism:

60. Q.
How are you righteous before God?

A.
Only by true faith in Jesus Christ. 1
Although my conscience accuses me
that I have grievously sinned
against all God's commandments,
have never kept any of them, 2
and am still inclined to all evil, 3
yet God, without any merit of my own, 4
out of mere grace, 5
imputes to me
the perfect satisfaction,
righteousness, and holiness of Christ. 6
He grants these to me
as if I had never had nor committed
any sin,
and as if I myself had accomplished
all the obedience
which Christ has rendered for me, 7
if only I accept this gift
with a believing heart. 8

1. Rom 3:21-28; Gal 2:16; Eph 2:8, 9; Phil 3:8-11.
2. Rom 3:9, 10.
3. Rom 7:23.
4. Deut 9:6; Ezek 36:22; Tit 3:4, 5.
5. Rom 3:24; Eph 2:8.
6. Rom 4:3-5; 2 Cor 5:17-19; 1 Jn 2:1, 2.
7. Rom 4:24, 25; 2 Cor 5:21.
8. Jn 3:18; Acts 16:30, 31; Rom 3:22.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2019

ladodgers6 said:
Sorry, I want to share this with you. I am working on James 2.

1. The Gospel of Jesus Christ—
We believe that the Gospel is the good news that the Lord Jesus Christ has suffered and died for the sins of the world!

The Proclamation of the Gospel to All the World: Because of His infinite love for the fallen sons and daughters of Adam, God Himself in the person of our Lord Jesus Christ has come into this sin-darkened world, lived a sinless, spotless life by perfectly obeying and fulfilling the Law of God, and then He suffered and died for our sins, in our place, as our atoning sacrifice upon the cross of Calvary. As the Second Adam, our Lord took upon Himself the legal guilt, punishment, penalty, suffering and death which we all deserve. The curses pronounced at the Fall of the First Adam, fell in full measure upon the Second Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ. In Christ, God has provided a sin bearer, substitute, and redeemer for God's people. He alone as the divine Son of God could have offered to the holy Law of God a righteousness equal to its broadest demands for perfect righteousness.

1.) Active obedience — The Law of God requires perfect obedience to all of its holy commandments, and absolute holiness and sinlessness of life. This perfect righteousness Jesus performed for us as the sinless Second Adam.

2.) Passive obedience — The Law of God also requires punishment and death for all who sin and come short of its righteous demands. This legal penalty Jesus bore for us when He suffered and died for us, in our place at Calvary. The guilt of all the world was reckoned and imputed to Him while He hung upon the cross.

Imputed Righteousness: the rock of offense — Jesus Christ: the meritorious cause (or the legal basis) of acceptance with God: In His sinless life and atoning death on the cross, God has provided a divine legal substitute, legal representative, and Second Adam for every fallen child of Adam. He was reckoned and treated as a sinner in the eyes of Divine justice so that by God's unmerited grace alone, in Christ alone, salvation from the penalty of sin has been made available for all the world. In Christ God has provided a ransom for all of humanity by paying the legal debt of all. The Lord Jesus Christ lived a sinless life, suffered and died as an atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world, arose again from the dead, and ascended into Heaven where He ever lives as the one High Priest and mediator who intercedes in the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to save all who call upon His name for forgiveness and eternal life.

Your view is what the majority of the churches teach. But Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that finds it. While we are saved initially and ultimately by God's grace, we also have to do works of faith as a part of the salvation process. 1 John 1:7 and Hebrews 5:9 make it absolutely clear that you have to obey as a part of God's saving grace. Otherwise one's belief is no better than that of devils.

Also, it is pure invention of one's own imagination to say God requires perfect obedience to every single command, otherwise, they are condemned. That is simply nowhere taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that there is a sin unto death, and a sin not unto death (1 John 5:16-17). Most do not realize Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism," and he was fighting against in going back to the Old Law (the Torah) as a whole (i.e. all 613 laws within the Law of Moses contractually speaking) and he was not against the commandments given to us by Jesus and His followers.

Here are the verses that show that Paul fighting against Circumcision Salvationism (Which is a part of the Old Law).

Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

This heresy was made even more clear at the Jerusalem council.

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

In other words, if a person thinks they have to first be circumcised to be saved, then they are trying to be saved by Law Alone without God's grace as their foundation. A New Covenant believer is not even under the command to be circumcised because it was a command as a part of the Law of Moses (Which is the Old Covenant or Old Contract). This was not even how circumcision worked in the OT when it was in effect before Christ's death. In the OT, the Jew had to first believe God by faith for salvation and then they do works of faith (Just like today). Believers in the Free Grace or Belief Alone Camp will say that works done in any way as a part of our salvation is trying to earn your salvation and it is evil and wrong. However, works are merely a part of your faith. The Bible calls these works as "works of faith" which is not the same thing as the "works of the Law." James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). James says faith without works is dead. Can a dead faith save anyone? No. We need to always have a living and active faith to continually access the saving grace of God.

In addition, Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that to love God (including certain details) and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (See Luke 10:25-28). Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments like: Do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, etc. (See Matthew 19:17-19). To preach the gospel is a salvation issue (See Luke 9:62). To help the poor in this life is a salvation issue (See Matthew 25:31-46).

Free Grace believers think they are not under any kind of Law salvation wise. But little do they realize that even to believe in Jesus is a commandment (1 John 3:23). Yes, salvation is relational and it is two way. We cannot save ourselves on our own effort alone without God. God does need to save us, but we have to also cooperate with God's plan of salvation. Cooperating or obeying God does not mean we are trying to earn salvation. A person can receive a car as a free gift, but if they do not do works of responsibility, they will not keep that car for very long. For if they drive drunk, run red lights, hit pedestrians, etc. they will not keep their free gift. This is not like trading hours for dollars like at a job. Works Alone Salvationism (Which is what Paul was preaching against in Ephesians 2:8 and other verses) is like a job. They work, and they get pay. Whereas with a free gift, they have it, but they do need to be responsible with that gift by taking care of it. That is not the same thing as a job.

But the Free Grace or Belief Alone Camps have turned God's grace into a license for immorality on some level. This is easily proven in the fact that most of them fail to answer the acid test question correctly. The question is:

"Was King David saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?"

Most in the Free Grace camp will say that he was saved while he did those sins (Which is teaching other believers that they can sin like a King David and be saved, too). But this is turning God's grace into a license for immorality. Some may protest and say that this is not the case. However, the fact of the matter we know that the general message of OSAS in many cases tends to lead people into being enslaved to their sin and not being set free from it (or to treat grace as a license to sin). How so? Just check out these testimonies below.

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

Mass Murder, Suicide, & OSAS:
George Sodini.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2019

ladodgers6 said:
James 2

“Paul clearly teaches that we are justified by faith and not by works (Rom. 1:17). …James declares, 'Was not Abraham our father justified by works' (2:21). …James and Paul would be contradictory if there were speaking about the same thing, but there are many indications in the text that they are not. Paul is speaking about justification before God, while James is talking about justification before humans.

This is indicated by the fact that James stressed that we should 'show' (2:18) our faith. It must be something that can be seen by others in 'works' (2:18-20). Further, James acknowledged that Abraham was justified before God by faith, not works, when he said, 'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness' (2:23). When he adds that Abraham was 'justified by works' (v. 21), he is speaking of what Abraham did that could be seen by people, namely offer his son Isaac on the altar (2:21-22).

…Paul is stressing the root of justification (faith); James is stressing the fruit of justification (works). …works as the proof of faith.”

So the works of the believer is the result of our Salvation in Christ Alone (Faith Alone), not the cause of it!

Hope this helps???

Through Faith Alone apart from works, because of Christ Alone!

Titus 3:5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

No. James is not talking about justification before humans. Skip back a chapter and he says this:

21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." (James 1:21-22).

James just said you have to put away sin an receive the engrafted Word of God which is able to save your soul. We are to be doers of God's Word and not hearers only, otherwise we are deceiving ourselves.

Also, James uses Abraham as an example and he says,

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" (James 2:21).

What humans were present when Abraham offered Isaac upon the altar? Nobody. There were no humans present to watch Abraham to be justified by works!!! This was a test from GOD, and the Lord stopped Abraham and counted him worthy of receiving the promise.

James 2:17 says faith without works is dead. A dead faith cannot access the saving grace of God that is a gift.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 9, 2019

Jason0047 said:
What humans were present when Abraham offered Isaac upon the altar? Nobody. There were no humans present to watch Abraham to be justified by works!!! This was a test from GOD, and the Lord stopped Abraham and counted him worthy of receiving the promise.

Remember , Isaac the sacrifice was there also. He saw everything too, pretty close.

As did Jesus when Jesus was crucified.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2019

ladodgers6 said:
This is what I confess, from the Heidelberg Catechism:

60. Q.
How are you righteous before God?

A.
Only by true faith in Jesus Christ. 1
Although my conscience accuses me
that I have grievously sinned
against all God's commandments,
have never kept any of them, 2
and am still inclined to all evil, 3
yet God, without any merit of my own, 4
out of mere grace, 5
imputes to me
the perfect satisfaction,
righteousness, and holiness of Christ. 6
He grants these to me
as if I had never had nor committed
any sin,
and as if I myself had accomplished
all the obedience
which Christ has rendered for me, 7
if only I accept this gift
with a believing heart. 8

1. Rom 3:21-28; Gal 2:16; Eph 2:8, 9; Phil 3:8-11.

2. Rom 3:9, 10.

3. Rom 7:23.

4. Deut 9:6; Ezek 36:22; Tit 3:4, 5.

5. Rom 3:24; Eph 2:8.

6. Rom 4:3-5; 2 Cor 5:17-19; 1 Jn 2:1, 2.

7. Rom 4:24, 25; 2 Cor 5:21.

8. Jn 3:18; Acts 16:30, 31; Rom 3:22.

God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). The sacrifice is imputed to us also if we obey (See again: 1 John 1:7, and Hebrews 5:9). While Christ's righteousness is imputed to us by faith, we also have to continue in the faith by putting forth works of faith to demonstrate or show our faith (just like Abraham did). In fact, Hebrews 11 is an illustration of how the great men of God's faith leads to works of faith. You cannot have one without the other. Nowhere does the Bible teach you can sin and still be saved on some level. If a believer sins, they need to confess their sin to be forgiven again (See 1 John 1:9). They also have to forsake their sin by walking in the light (See 1 John 1:7). For that person who says they know the Lord and does not keep his commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. So how can we be righteous? 1 John 3:7 says he that does righteousness is righteous. 1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:10 says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
"

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Remember , Isaac the sacrifice was there also. He saw everything too, pretty close.

As did Jesus when Jesus was crucified.

In Romans 4: Paul is talking about being justified by "Works Alone" (that does not include God's grace). Paul is not talking about the necessity of works of faith that follow faith in the Savior. Paul makes it clear that if we live according to the flesh, we will die but if we live after the Spirit and put to death the misdeeds of the body, we shall live (See Romans 8:13). Romans 4:2 is saying justified by works of the "Law Alone" (without initial faith in God's saving grace).

As for Isaac: Well, Isaac was not an unbeliever. He did not need any convincing at the age of when he was being sacrificed that God was real and true.

Galatians 4:29 says that Isaac was born of the Spirit while he was persecuted by Ishmael.

"But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." (Galatians 4:29).

(Note: See: Genesis 21:9 of when Ishmael mocked (persecuted) Isaac.).

We also see that Abraham approved of God's faithful actions.

The LORD says this of Abraham:

"...for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." (Genesis 22:12).

In fact, we learn that Abraham's faithful actions lead God to bless him so as to multiply his seed as the stars of heaven, etc.

16 "because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice." (Genesis 22:16-18).

In other words, Abraham's works of faith justified him before God.

Nothing is said of Isaac having his faith built up in this chapter whereby his faith was being justified with his son.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2019

Faith + works of faith go hand in hand. For if one is faithful to God, they are having true faith. Being faithful relates to one's salvation.

"His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:23).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2019

Faith leads to righteous faithful actions.

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." (Hebrews 11:7).

If Noah did not build the ark, he would have perished like everyone else. A belief alone would not have saved Noah. Noah had to obey as a part of his faith in God. Noah was justified or saved by his works of faith.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 9, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Faith leads to righteous faithful actions.

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." (Hebrews 11:7).

If Noah did not build the ark, he would have perished like everyone else. A belief alone would not have saved Noah. Noah had to obey as a part of his faith in God. Noah was justified or saved by his works of faith.

Noah preached for about 100 years also, didn't he?

And Enoch also? At the same time ? (He died the same year as the beginning of the rain, I think.)

They did the tasks assigned to them by Yahweh. Each one his own tasks.

Yahweh prepared "good works" , - "TASKS" - to be accomplished,
BEFORE creating the world
,
for everyone to do during their days on earth.

Without hearing His Word, without hearing the Shepherds Voice, how can anyone know the tasks they are to do ?
"Blessed are they who hear the Word of God AND DO IT"
"Be not just hearers of God's Word, but DOERS also"

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
"Blessed are they who hear the Word of God AND DO IT" "Be not just hearers of God's Word, but DOERS also"

Indeed.

Oldmantook · Jan 9, 2019

PeaceByJesus said:
Which means what? Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Matthew 25:41) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:46) ?

What do think spiritual death means? I don't have to spell it out for you as obviously your refer to the lake of fire.

Oldmantook · Jan 9, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Love for God is not immediate to a new believer it grows over time. Fear however is immediate and can help to keep those who are new in faith in line until their love for God grows.

Yes both fearing and loving God are referred to in the scriptures as both are motivators depending on our our circumstance, understanding, maturity, etc.

ladodgers6 · Jan 9, 2019

Jason0047 said:
No. James is not talking about justification before humans. Skip back a chapter and he says this:

21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." (James 1:21-22).

James just said you have to put away sin an receive the engrafted Word of God which is able to save your soul. We are to be doers of God's Word and not hearers only, otherwise we are deceiving ourselves.

Also, James uses Abraham as an example and he says,

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" (James 2:21).

What humans were present when Abraham offered Isaac upon the altar? Nobody. There were no humans present to watch Abraham to be justified by works!!! This was a test from GOD, and the Lord stopped Abraham and counted him worthy of receiving the promise.

James 2:17 says faith without works is dead. A dead faith cannot access the saving grace of God that is a gift.

I beg to differ. You are assuming that sinners and believers can be justified by works before God; giving them something to boast about. So let's read Romans 4:2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

So you have a dilemma here. You suggested that Abraham was justified by works before God. So please explain this?

There is also another passage that presents a problem for you.

Titus 3:5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Who saves who here? He (SAVED) us! (Past Tense)

In Reformed Theology, when we say, By Faith Alone! Its shorthand for the Active/Passive Obedience of Christ. And His Atonement, Burial, Resurrection! It's all about Christ and His works!

Now, I don't know if you have read my previous posts. In Reformed Theology we do not deny the good works of the believer. We teach and believe that works of the believer flows from our Justification in Christ Alone, received through faith Alone! I also provided Romans 6:1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? Paul stated that the Gospel is not a license to sin.

But understanding Law & Gospel in relation to Justification by Faith Alone is key to understanding Scripture. Why? Because you have Law passages (Imperatives/Commands) and Gospel passages (Indicatives/Promises).

If one doesn't understand the plight of the sinner before a Holy God. Then the Gospel is going to get perverted; like Paul warned the Galatians about.

So am I denying the works of the believer? Certainly not, the third use of the Law; is a guide for Christian living. The difference now than before, is that the curse of the Law has been reversed in Christ.

Our works as sinners or believers will never meet the Law demands for perfect righteousness. So by trying to establish your own, you become ignorant of the righteousness of God that He gives FREELY to the 'UNGODLY' who believe he justifies the 'UNGODLY' (Romans 4:5-6).

And I leave you with this:

Romans 10:1Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

I really hope you address the passages I have provided, so that you may gain the knowledge about the righteousness of God in Christ!

Hope this helps???

Is all that is required for salvation is believing in Christ and Him crucified?

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simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Know what you believe and why you believe it

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