What particular Church can claim the most martyrs?

You are right, of course. May God forgive me for anything I have written in frustration or that otherwise lacks compassion. It was probably a mistake to come back to this thread in the first place. Lord have mercy.

To timothyu: I am sorry if anything I have written has hurt you in any way. That was not my intention. I am simply human as well, and it is very difficult to effectively communicate with someone whose viewpoint is so different and so inscrutable relative to your own. Be that as it may, certainly keeping my cool would've probably saved us both some grief, and this website some bandwith, and yet I failed to do that. Again, Lord have mercy.

dzheremi said:

No. It makes your disparaging comments about gentile this and that seem incredibly strange and ridiculous, but they already read like that before this reply.

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I have no desire to change your mind. How is that ever possible, especially in forums when minds are already closed, having been filled with the opinions of others? Open minds have never been acceptable to the hierarchy of gentile religion.

dzheremi said:

ays you, but I'll thank you not to attempt to impart your paranoia on to others.

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Putting oneself in a box having it lead to anything outside that box is not paranoia. It is common fact only subject to the degree each of us finds things that are different, a threat.

dzheremi said:

Gosh, this is so much easier! Why didn't the Church follow your wisdom and get rid of nouns and adjectives? They're so divisive!

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Yes, instead they put in punctuation, unheard of in Hebrew writing, often giving scripture entirely new meaning.

dzheremi said:

Ughhh. Nevermind. I just remembered the discussion you've been having with Marius throughout the thread about the suitability of governments in a Christian context.

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I don't mind if you cannot comprehend. We each see as far as God intends. I'm not trying to change your mind. But if it is out of your range, why bother immersing yourself let alone being critical?

dzheremi said:

Well I believe that whatever it is you're talking about is so completely unworkable and insane in the actual world in which we live

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That is the whole point. God's Gospel of the Kingdom is 'unworkable and insane in the actual world in which we live'. That is why it was called the upside down Kingdom and it's original followers haters of mankind.

dzheremi said:

To timothyu: I am sorry if anything I have written has hurt you in any way. That was not my intention. I am simply human as well, and it is very difficult to effectively communicate with someone whose viewpoint is so different and so inscrutable relative to your own. Be that as it may, certainly keeping my cool would've probably saved us both some grief, and this website some bandwith, and yet I failed to do that. Again, Lord have mercy.

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You have hurt no one my friend. We are each seeking the same God in ways meant for each of us. The only thing is we need to be discerning as to what the blind have taught the blind and clear our vision as to whether it serves the Adversary, his presence in the church, or serves God. If anything, I am saying to people to give Jesus and His Gospel of the Kingdom a chance, free of the indoctrination in our thinking previously placed there. And I did not see you losing your cool, only a bit of smoke from the ears as the Gospel of the Kingdom challenged you.

timothyu said:

You have hurt no one my friend. We are each seeking the same God in ways meant for each of us. The only thing is we need to be discerning as to what the blind have taught the blind and clear our vision as to whether it serves the Adversary, his presence in the church, or serves God. If anything, I am saying to people to give Jesus and His Gospel of the Kingdom a chance, free of the indoctrination in our thinking previously placed there. And I did not see you losing your cool, only a bit of smoke from the ears as the Gospel of the Kingdom challenged you.

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I must also ask your forgiveness friend. Though we disagree I've let the passion of anger tempt me.

☦Marius☦ said:

I must also ask your forgiveness friend. Though we disagree I've let the passion of anger tempt me.

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The same applies as I said to dzhermie

timothyu said:

It would be silly to walk rather than use the Christian vehicle, considering it was started as a Jewish transport until the corporate takeover by the Gentiles. Christianity is not the problem. It is the dual nature within, the majority loyal to the will of man setting up the institution, the minority loyal to the will of God living by His words. It's always been that way, whether in the religion or out in the world.

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As Jesus would say the hearts of men will wax cold in the latter days.

The way you speak and defend Christ because of the sake of the little ones is commendable.

What the false accussers don't get, is that Christianity originated from the Middie-East by those who spoke the Aramaic Franco Lingo. These were Jewish merchants who controlled the trade routes along the Silk Road. The two players as prophetically declared in Isaiah 19:23-25 and by history itself, for setting up the Highway of God were the Christian Jewish merchants and the Men of Nineveh, who are the Assyrians that founded Eastern Orthodox Christianity from Eddessa. The Church of the East, is a symbol of where the Sun/Son of righteousness rises from the East. These are the Men of Nineveh that Jesus spoke about. These are the people whom God used in the Old and New Testaments as the Work of his Hand.

The Men of Nineveh spread the Christian faith to India, China, Mongolia, Russia, even Japan and Africa. There were reported on a Chinese Stelle where 3000 Churches (Acts of the Apostles continued) were established in different counties and across China during the Tang Dynasty. The Church of the East was twice as big as the Church in the West for 1000 years after the originating Apostles had long gone.

I had also made a Thread named Does Orthodox Christianity owe its routes from Nineveh Iraq (Edessa) and received no credible rebuttal and neither objections to my Christian Profile Label. They knew who I was and since I had limited choices at the time, in choosing the Christian label, the closest to Eastern Orthodoxy as a testament to the first millenia is the Assyrian Church of the East. The European Eastern notion of faith had not even been conceptualized let alone established until the last millenia or so.

Does Orthodox Christianity owe its routes from Nineveh Iraq (Edessa)

The numerous Biblical and Historical corroborating facts suggest that the Assyrian Church of the East (Church in Babylon Iraq) had to make comprises by being forced by these Pharisee like players to deny history itself and by removing any suggestion of them being Orthodox.

The originator of Orthodoxy is being called a derogatory term Nestorians. The Church existed and was firm in their Christology three hundred and fifty years before Nestoruis was born.

Today's Pharisees have a knack for false labels and their hijacking of Orthodoxy does not excuse them from planting a modern twist on Christian labels while ignoring historic facts.

The facts remain the Assyrian Church of the East existed as an Orthodox faith before the modern usage of the term Eastern Orthodox owing to European Eastern block gentile nations.

East always historically has meant from the Middle-East where the faith originated, where the three wise men came from. East has never historically meant Eastern Europe.

Getting back to answering the topic question -
What particular Church can claim the most martyrs?

I refer all of you to a good and concise read of the originating Orthodox martyres who were the first and the oldest none imperially sanctioned priesthood that made sacrifices for the last 2000 years.

The Martyred Church: A History of the Church of the East. By David Wilmshurst. pp. xxi, 522. London, East & West Publishing, 2011.

Excurpt -

"The Church of the East is arguably the most interesting of all the Syriac-speaking Churches. Few outside the Middle East are familiar with it, yet between the ninth and fourteenth centuries the Church of the East was the largest Christian Church in the world, with dioceses stretching from the Mediterranean to Asia and China. The church has been harried and persecuted throughout its history. The tragic story of this `martyred church' is brought vividly to life in this impressive book."



The Assyrian Church of the East's greatest persecutors were not predominately unbelievers, but were other prophesying Christians who sought to first ostracize them and then proceed to vilify them before unbelievers in order for the unbelievers to do their bidding. Much martyrdom of the Assyrian Church of the East was cultivated by prophesying Christians who deep down in their hearts wanted them destroyed and gone.

One can see from its status for 1300 years as the largest Church who thrusted the Gospel into the hearts of the unbelieving enemies, who embraced them and did not harm them, then all of a sudden the same unbelievers who were peaceful and receptive to the Men of Nineveh were pushed to then punitively target them. The very collapse of the 3000 churches across China is not by the hand of the enemy, but by the puppet masters behind the emperors during the inquisitors of heretics during the Imperial Byzantine poltical power players, who made packs with unbelievers against the Men of Nineveh behind closed doors, unbeknownst to the Men of Nineveh.

Yet all things come around in full circle as God would have it his way, then the Balshavics came to equalize the score.

Karma ?

The two knights on God's Chess game are the Assyrian Church of the East and the Chaldanians who were one before the prophesying Christian agitators split them.

Anyway, now that we know that God is in control and not the standing empires with their armies, we should think deeply why God has chosen these two knights who are really one, to bring the game to a head before the mother of all martyrdoms.

Treat each other nicely please and learn from your fathers mistakes for heaven sake, because you really do not want to be a casuality of God in his grand master chess move to bring it to an end finale.

The knight is God's handy work (Isaiah 19:23-25), or at least believe the Son when he said the Men of Nineveh will come to condemn this New Testament generation.

Please learn from the mistakes of your fathers and don't do their mistake for heavens sake, otherwise something worse than communism is coming around the corner for your denomination.

timothyu said:

HAD to be appointed?

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Well yes, since Jews were not allowed within Jerusalem after 135 AD. The Temple was destroyed in 70 AD during the 1st revolt and Gamaliel II excluded Jewish Christians from the synagogues around 100 AD. During the 2nd revolt (Bar Kokhba revolt), about 500,000 Jews were killed. Christians (both Jew and gentile) did not participate in the revolt nor believe that Bar Kokhba was the Messiah, thus further separating Judaism and Christianity. In the years following the revolt, Hadrian discriminated against all Judeo-Christian sects, but the worst persecution was directed against religious Jews. He made anti-religious decrees forbidding Torah study, Sabbath observance, circumcision, etc.

☦Marius☦ said:

Source on Tzar Nicolas II persecuting Protestants?

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A book on persecution of Christians in the USSR, with an historical introduction.

Especially since his wife was Ex Lutheran?

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As the "Ex" tells it, she was not allowed to keep her protestant faith. And since the Tsar allowed German immigants (and their descendants) to keep their protestant faith, I guess she never heard how Russian peasants who came to believing when they met Lutheran or Mennonite Germans were persecuted.

Also I don't see the relation in Matthew 13:29 to what we are talking about.

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Mt 13: 29 ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ 
This is said to those who wanted to uproot the "weed", i.e. to persecute the ones who do not obey God. Do you really think this has no connection to the questions how to treat those who are heretic in our eyes?

helmut said:

A book on persecution of Christians in the USSR, with an historical introduction.


As the "Ex" tells it, she was not allowed to keep her protestant faith. And since the Tsar allowed German immigants (and their descendants) to keep their protestant faith, I guess she never heard how Russian peasants who came to believing when they met Lutheran or Mennonite Germans were persecuted.


Mt 13: 29 ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ 
This is said to those who wanted to uproot the "weed", i.e. to persecute the ones who do not obey God. Do you really think this has no connection to the questions how to treat those who are heretic in our eyes?

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She willingly converted and embraced the faith actually. She often wrote about herself falling in love with the Russian Church. She was known for having the zealotry of a convert.

As for your persecutions, I can find barely any sources on them other than just saying they were "arrested". Usually the ones arrested were those proselytizing. There is no mention of any executions.

Since protestants are well known for there rash "idol" smashing and book burning, I wouldn't be surprised if it was public disturbance that got them arrested.

helmut said:

A book on persecution of Christians in the USSR, with an historical introduction.

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I can't figure out the English Title, so I link to two German editions with different tiles (but I remember it is the same book):

„Und das Volk weinte die ganze Nacht“ (J C Pollock) – Buch antiquarisch kaufen – A020aiqt01ZZs
„Gott hinter Gittern - Christen im heutigen Rußland“ (J C Pollock) – Buch antiquarisch kaufen – A01rCedi01ZZg
AFAIK, it was one of the first books on persecution in the 20th century that made an impact to the public.

☦Marius☦ said:

So essentially do nothing until the end times is your solution? That's nice until there is a war or a crisis and we need those "evil" institutions of man to keep us from being wiped out.

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Followers of Jesus will never be wiped out, Jesus promised:
Mt 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades* will not overcome it. [*]That is, the realm of the dead.
No one will ever be able to wipe the church from the earth.

As to cope with persecution, remember what Jesus said:
Mt 5:39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.
40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.
...
Mt 5:44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven

And therefore, the Revelation says in midst the description of the persecution by the beast:
Rev 12:9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.
10 “If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed.” This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.

The state has the function to protect good and lawful, people from the outlaws and evil ones (See Rom 13:1ff). We can judge a state if he does not do that. But there is no notion of a "christian state" in the whole NT.

☦Marius☦ said:

Crimea voted to become part of the federation

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Like Austria voted to join Germany in 1938. Both votes were made under occupation, they are worthless.

yet the west called it an "invasion" because the rebels they funded were defeated by their own people

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This "own people" turned out to be Russian secret agents that got medals from Putin himself, according to Russian media. Of course, months later when the outcry of the invasion by Russian soldiers dressed as "neutral rebels" or so was almost gone.

In Ukraine Russia intervened because the democratically elected government that was probably Russia was overthrown by Western backed rebels (sound familiar)

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No, it was the other way round: the Rebellion was the reaction to the government's yielding to Russian pressure. Out of the sudden, a treaty with the EU was put down by a government who had put several opposition leaders into prison with the usual accusation of corruption and the like (sounds familiar to ones who listen to news from Moscow).

Russia has never been an example of colonialism and invasion and if the west wants to criticize moves Russia makes on it's own borders then it is criticism with hypocracy.

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Siberia is a Russian colony. Without Russian colonization, virtually no Russian would live there. The soviet republics were treated as colonies - it took a massive protest to prevent Georgia from changing the official language in that republic from Georgian to Russian.

As to invasions, we ave Georgia (nit to mention invasions in the soviet or tsarist time). And also much interference in Azerbaijan, Moldavia and other former soviet republics.

☦Marius☦ said:

I can assure you no legitimate EO supports any occult related garbage. The desert Father's are quite clear on what happens to the mind of those who play around with demonic things.

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In strongly doubt that anyone of the old oriental churches, whether Nestorian, Miaphysite or whatever else, will do so.
There are individuals who do so, in the western churches, in the EO and no doubt in the other oriental churches.

timothyu said:

Christian Gentile institutiions

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Well, the Greek term episkopos is just another name for he Jewish term presbueros, the former denoting as member of the leading body in a Greek association, the latter the member of a leading body in a sunagoge. Both are used interchangeable in the NT.

☦Marius☦ said:

As for your persecutions, I can find barely any sources on them other than just saying they were "arrested". Usually the ones arrested were those proselytizing. There is no mention of any executions.

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Not just the "proselytizing" (a word mostly used of a church which has lost its anointment, when members come to the Lord and get nourished by a living church), the peasant who after been "proselytized" joined together to read the Bible and pray, were arrested, beaten and sent to Siberia.

Since protestants are well known for there rash "idol" smashing and book burning, I wouldn't be surprised if it was public disturbance that got them arrested.

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I don't remember to have read anything about "idol smashing" in that context. Mennonites do not use violence, and Lutherans have learned the lections Luther told to the radical idol-smashers at Wittenberg in 1522.
You guess from your prejudices, but you get off the known facts.