13 people killed in Southern California mass shooting at bar

Zoii · Nov 11, 2018

The Gryphon said:
I was only talking about mass shooters. If you want to stop all violence including family violence you would have to ban knives, baseball bats, as well as hands and feet as people will use what ever is handy to bash and or kill each other in a rage.

Number of murder victims in the United States in 2017, by weapon

Handguns - 7032
Firearms type not stated - 3096
Knives and cutting instruments - 1591
Other weapons or weapons not stated - 979
Hands, Fists, Feet, etc. - 696
Blunt Objects (clubs, hammers, etc.) - 467
Rifles (including AR15) - 403 (note that all rifle deaths are lower than by hands, fists, and feet)
Shotguns - 264
other guns - 187
Asphyxiation - 105
Fire - 103

The AR15 is the most vilified firearm in America yet Hands, Fists, Feet and other personal body parts in 2017 were used to murdered 696 people while all rifles put together accounted for 403 murders. Yet I have heard no outcry to ban boxing, self defense or martial arts training across America. I wonder why? I guess it does not fit into someone's political agenda to disarm the American citizenry.

Well lets look at your logic AND the figures you provided

Hands/fists/feet = 4.7%
Firearms (regardless of type) = 74%
Knife or other cutting instrument = 10.6%

So why is it you dont understand that your compatriot Americans look mostly towards firearms as an issue as opposed to someone's feet or a knife?

OldWiseGuy · Nov 11, 2018

Zoii said:
Well lets look at your logic AND the figures you provided

Hands/fists/feet = 4.7%
Firearms (regardless of type) = 74%
Knife or other cutting instrument = 10.6%

So why is it you dont understand that your compatriot Americans look mostly towards firearms as an issue as opposed to someone's feet or a knife?

Our opioid overdose death problem is worse yet.

49,000 opioid deaths (of a total drug overdose deaths of 72,000).

17,000- gun homicides

2017 figures.

Archivist · Nov 11, 2018

Aldebaran said:
What if a guy's wife or daughter was being raped in front of him? Would he just sit there and watch?

Yes.

Archivist · Nov 11, 2018

Aldebaran said:
Then what if it was a girlfriend, or your sister or mother being raped in front of you? Would you want to be like what you say the Amish would do and not take action to put a stop to it?

If you have read the thread you know that I said that I would you fists or other objects in self defense. Obviously I would do that in defense of others. The Amish would not. And remember, I have not proposed doing away with gun ownership, just ownership of semi-automatic guns.

Archivist · Nov 11, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
Our opioid overdose death problem is worse yet.

49,000 opioid deaths (of a total drug overdose deaths of 72,000).

17,000- gun homicides

2017 figures.

Except those who overdose on drugs do it to themselves. Those who went to that club in California or the synagogue in Pittsburgh did nothing wrong, they were innocent victims.

Archivist · Nov 11, 2018

The Gryphon said:
Well if those that wish to take the rights of gun ownership away from those that believe in the Second Amendment then REPEAL the Second Amendment; short of that you are going to have a rebellion on your hands not seen since the Civil War and maybe even then!

There have been limits on gun ownership going back to the early days of the republic. In some states local militias were forbidden from having cannon because of fears that the ammo could explode and destroy the town. You currently cannot own automatic weapons manufactured after a certain date. Do you think you can put a 14-inch battleship gun with ammo in your back yard? Good luck with that. And no one in this thread has suggested banning all guns, just semi-automatic guns.

Ancient of Days · Nov 11, 2018

" And no one in this thread has suggested banning all guns, just semi-automatic guns."

Name a commonly owned firearm that is not semi-automatic? Name a firearm that is not semi-automatic?

Archivist · Nov 11, 2018

Ancient of Days said:
" And no one in this thread has suggested banning all guns, just semi-automatic guns."

Name a commonly owned firearm that is not semi-automatic? Name a firearm that is not semi-automatic?

A Colt revolver, a .22 bolt action rifle, a pump-action shotgun.

Ancient of Days · Nov 11, 2018

No difference. One squeeze of the trigger, one bullet fired.

Ancient of Days · Nov 11, 2018

How will you guarantee the law abiding citizens that your ban will be followed by the criminals?

Archivist · Nov 11, 2018

Ancient of Days said:
No difference. One squeeze of the trigger, one bullet fired.

Wrong. On a bolt-action rifle you have to operate the bolt to bring the next bullet into the chamber. You have to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] a revolver. A pump-action shotgun will get off two shots. A semi-automatic fires each tome you pull the trigger plus a Semi-automatic has a larger magazine.

Ancient of Days · Nov 11, 2018

Archivist said:
Wrong. On a bolt-action rifle you have to operate the bolt to bring the next bullet into the chamber. You have to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] a revolver. A pump-action shotgun will get off two shots. A semi-automatic fires each tome you pull the trigger plus a Semi-automatic has a larger magazine.

How will you guarantee the law abiding citizens that your ban will be followed by the criminals?

Archivist · Nov 11, 2018

Ancient of Days said:
How will you guarantee the law abiding citizens that your ban will be followed by the criminals?

If it were adopted by the US it wouldn’t be my ban, and in fact many have called for such a ban. Yes some lawbreakers will hang on to their semiautomatic guns but they will gradually be recovered. It worked in Australia.

Archivist · Nov 11, 2018

Ancient of Days said:
How will you guarantee the law abiding citizens that your ban will be followed by the criminals?

Just answered. Give a person time to reply please.

Ancient of Days · Nov 11, 2018

Then show me one instance where a law prevented a crime?

Archivist · Nov 11, 2018

Ancient of Days said:
Then show me one instance where a law prevented a crime?

I presume this is directed at me. It would help if you would indicate what post you are replying to. Laws usually don’t prevent crimes, they punish people who commit crimes. But because a law is in place it allows law enforcement to watch for those planning crimes. I recall recently hearing that the FBI prevented an attack in the NY subway because they had a tip that such an attack was being planned.

The Gryphon · Nov 11, 2018

Number of murder victims in the United States in 2017, by weapon

Handguns - 7032
Knives or cutting instruments - 1591
Hands, Fists, Feet, Etc. (Personal Weapons) - 696
Blunt Objects (Clubs, hammers, etc.) - 467
Rifles - 403 (Personal note: this included the most reviled by gun control types the "AR15")
Shotguns - 264
Asphyxiation - 105
Fire - 103

I have said the only legal way is to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution however the gun control advocates have not so far wanted to go that route because it is so hard. They have chosen the pick the peoples gun rights piecemeal to death route. Australia has a totally different national history and society. The gun laws like five years for the use of a gun in the commission of a crime are as a rule the first to be plea-bargained away so it in fact rare used as it was intended. Why have a gun law if you refuse to use it as intended only to quote it in statics as many anti-gun people do as a failure to prevent gun crime. The five years for the use of a gun in the commission of a crime should be a mandatory add-on not subject to plea-bargains or subject to being dropped by liberal judges. If it is supposed to be a gun crime deterrent then use it as such!

The Gryphon · Nov 11, 2018

Ancient of Days said:
Then show me one instance where a law prevented a crime?

Ok, show me where a murderer once executed for his crimes has ever murdered again. Crimes Prevented!

The Gryphon · Nov 11, 2018

Archivist said:
There have been limits on gun ownership going back to the early days of the republic. In some states local militias were forbidden from having cannon because of fears that the ammo could explode and destroy the town. You currently cannot own automatic weapons manufactured after a certain date. Do you think you can put a 14-inch battleship gun with ammo in your back yard? Good luck with that. And no one in this thread has suggested banning all guns, just semi-automatic guns.

I suggest you read the "Federalist Papers". The Federalist (later known as The Federalist Papers) is a collection of 85 articles and essays promoting the ratification of the United States Constitution. They were written by Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and John Jay (under the pseudonym Publius), between October 1787 and August 1788. In them are discussed such things that later caused there to be a Second Amendment to the Constitution.

The Second Amendment does not apply to battleships, artillery, and such so please educate yourself as to what it does apply to and what was in our Founding Fathers mind when they penned it. Use some common since while you are at it. They knew there would be advancement in arms so try to understand their thinking as well as as to what they intended and not the absurd.

Archivist · Nov 11, 2018

The Gryphon said:
I suggest you read the "Federalist Papers". The Federalist (later known as The Federalist Papers) is a collection of 85 articles and essays promoting the ratification of the United States Constitution. They were written by Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and John Jay (under the pseudonym Publius), between October 1787 and August 1788. In them are discussed such things that later caused there to be a Second Amendment to the Constitution.

I am very Familiar with the Federalist Papers, I use them in the undergraduate classes that I teach. The second amendment had not been drafted when the Federalist Papers were written. The authors could discuss the need for such an amendment, but they didn’t have the wording of the amendment to reference.

The Second Amendment does not apply to battleships, artillery, and such so please educate yourself as to what it does apply to and what was in our Founding Fathers mind when they penned it. Use some common since while you are at it. They knew there would be advancement in arms so try to understand their thinking as well as as to what they intended and not the absurd.

You can be polite in your discussion and not tell me that I need to use “common sense.” The 2nd Amendment was written to prevent interference by the Federal government with the right of the people to keep and bear arms for participation in a well regulated militia. Many militias had cannon. The Federal government couldn’t prevent them from having such weapons but state governments could as the amendment originally did not apply to state governments.

13 people killed in Southern California mass shooting at bar

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