Peter said that to the local inhabitants, not the foreigners. The foreigners didn't think they were mad. The miracle they witnessed made them pay attention to the apostles.
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Is Tongues Always the Initial Evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?
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Peter said that to the local inhabitants, not the foreigners. The foreigners didn't think they were mad. The miracle they witnessed made them pay attention to the apostles.
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I guess the difference between you and me is how we separate comprehend 1 Corinthians 14. I think our variant views are both based on reading between the lines of what Paul wrote. The problem is that we don't have Paul here to clarify things for us.
So, I go by what Paul says in Romans, which makes both of us right: we operate the gifts to the proportion of our faith. I have faith to believe that God hears and understands when I pray in tongues, and you don't. Doesn't make either of us better than each other in our walk in the Spirit.
Not every speaks in tongues, as Paul says. Those who do have spiritual discerned it and believe it is part of God's will for them. Others have not received that revelation from God, and so they are moving in other areas of the Spirit more appropriate to them.
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Of course the disciples were baptized in the Spirit subsequent to their conversion - because Pentecost was the first time the Spirit had been poured out on anyone. But after Pentecost there are no examples in Acts that matches the Pentecostal theory of subsequence (an initial indwelling of the Spirit at conversion, followed later by the baptism of the Spirit). Not even Samaria - they did not receive the Spirit at all at conversion in that unique event.
But we do have 1 Cor 12:13 which says all believers are baptized with the Spirit.
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You haven't really solved the problems with your question(s).
I'm not saying one or the other, but both. The second always comes after the first. If you have the second, you already have the first. They all had both. That's how it was done in the days before tongues became a questionable manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
Yes, water baptism.
Isn't that where you are claiming that the indwelling Spirit comes from? Baptized by one Spirit? Surely you aren't promoting the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. Horrors!
If "made to drink one Spirit" is in reference to the indwelling of the Spirit, then to what do you attribute "all baptized by one Spirit"? The verse says "and", meaning one is in addition to the other.
1 Corinthians 12:12-13
Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
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Thanks.
On reading your post a question/comment came to mind.
So, if water baptism is a ceremony, why wouldn't Holy Spirit baptism also be a ceremony? Both would require the hands of the church to administer.
I say/ask this knowing full well that the baptism with the Holy Spirit (with evidence of tongues) can happen spontaneously. Meaning the recipient is ready for it, but is not asking for it, and/or doesn't even know what it is.
No comment on John 20:22 ???
Maybe we have covered that previously.
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You are making the big assumption that today's so called tongues is the genuine NT gift. The evidence is that it is not.
It was the Corinthians as a group who were told to eagerly desire gifts within their congregations. Not for individuals to seek them. It is the Holy Spirit who sovereignly determines who gets what gift (1 Cor 12:11). And the gifts the Corinthians were to desire for their church were the greater gifts such as prophecy and teaching, not the least of the gifts - tongues.
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That is not specified. Pure speculation on your part. "Some, ..."
Acts 2:13
Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”
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Sorry you've lost me. Both of what?
No the indwelling and baptism of the Spirit occurs at conversion, not water baptism. It is Jesus who baptizes believers with the Holy Spirit.
The Corinthians (and us) are all baptized with and indwelt by the Spirit.
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Look who Peter was addressing when he started speaking....
“Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, "
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That's quite an admission on your part. "Of course the disciples were baptized in the Spirit subsequent to their conversion..." - @swordsman1
There were at least two other examples. And you are wrong about Samaria. Rather than see all of these events as connected, you want call each one unique. Here's the scripture. Commentary below that.
The big question is: On what evidence is it determined as to where the Holy Spirit is?
Acts 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What does this say about the Holy Spirit in regards to these new believers.
- they needed to receive the Holy Spirit, because...
- the Holy Spirit had not yet come on (note: "on") any of them (how did they know that?)
- Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit (how did they know that?)
Notice that determinations were made as to whether these new believers had received the Holy Spirit. The question is: How did they determine this?
1) the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them (new believers)
2) Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. (based on what evidence?)
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If you don't believe it, I can't help you.
I understand you aren't asking for my help.
But there is no point even discussing it if you claim it doesn't exist.
I won't convince you, and you won't convince me.
I'm quite happy with the Holy Spirit manifestation of tongues.
You cannot take that away from me.
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To say the Samaritans were indwelt by the Spirit before the apostles arrived is reading something into the text that isn't there. It plainly says they didn't receive the Holy Spirit until the apostles laid hands on them. If they hadn't received the Spirit until that point, they can't have been indwelt by Him earlier.
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I have two problems with that. Samaria and Ephesus.
If that is true, why didn't the new believers in Samaria receive it at conversion?
If that is true, why didn't the new believers in Ephesus receive it at conversion?
Acts 19:5-7
On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.
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daydreamer40
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So when Phillip preached to them, and they accepted the message and were baptised, do you think he left them in an unsaved state? Only, if the Holy Spirit is not in you, you cannot be saved/a Christian:
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. Rom8:9
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Those staying there were living in Jerusalem, unless you are claiming that Peter was not preaching to those visitors.
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The Samaritans and Jews hated each other, so it was necessary for the reception of the Spirit to be delayed until the apostles arrived so they could witness for themselves that the hated Samaritans were now also part of the Church, and for the Samaritans to accept the (Jewish) apostles as it's leaders. That is the only time the Spirit was delayed after Pentecost.
The men at Ephasus were not Christians when Paul met them. They were disciples of John the Baptist. Paul's preaching, the laying on of hands, their speaking in tongues, and their water baptism all happened in quick succession. No precise order is stated - note that it says "When Paul places his hands on them", not "Then Paul placed his hands on them". All we can say is it all happened around the same time.
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No they were saved at that point, but had not received the Spirit.
Exactly. Which proves that Samaria was a unique event, not the normal pattern for today.
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daydreamer40
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Well if scripture plainly states you can only belong to Christ if the Spirit of the Father and Son are within you, I adhere to scripture
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Come on now. If someone is visiting a place you don't say that they live there.
Peter included the visitors in the rest of this sermon..."Fellow Israelites,..."
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It's all about the evidence.
How do you know whether a new believer is indwelt by the Spirit? What is the evidence?
How do you know whether the Spirit has COME ON a new believer? What is the evidence?
In this passage, receiving the Holy Spirit is defined as coming on them. What is the evidence?
Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. What is the evidence?
Acts 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What did Peter say at the house of Cornelius? “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” - Acts 10:47
What was the evidence?
What was the evidence?
Acts 10:44-46
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. …
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