God bless you, PopeFrancis

Basil the Great said:

CNN quoted part of the pope's reasoning for the change and some of it apparently has to do with today's prisons being more secure and thus better able to protect society. While this is true to some extent, we have had pretty secure prisons now for probably 100 years or so. Still, there is some validity to the Pope's point in terms of comparing today to perhaps a few hundred years ago.

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For groups like the Mexican Mafia and the Aryan Brotherhood it is considered to be graduate school when locked up in AD SEG .

They run their organizations from behind bars. Hits are issued from the shot callers who are leadership in these organizations, as well as the day to day business of drugs and other crimes.

I would reject this for the reasons that are being stated because they are incompatible with what the Saints and previous Popes have said. If people want to say that prisons are very secure today and dangerous people can be contained within them so there is no longer a need for Capital punishment in most cases then this could be a reasonable argument but it is exactly what John Paul II said so there has been no change. Saying it is inadmissible in all cases regardless of the surrounding circumstances is wrong.

Rhamiel said:

ultramontanists are going crazy

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So true, talk about worshiping a mere human being...

I bought my catechism at the beginning of Franciscus papacy and I start to think it was for a reason.

chevyontheriver said:

The only sound moral reason would really be for the protection of the innocent. But that has been ruled out now.

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Romans 13:4 does not talk about the sword being used by those in authority to protect the innocent but rather to punish the wicked. So punishment seems to be an legitimate reason for state sanctioned violence

chevyontheriver said:

The only sound moral reason would really be for the protection of the innocent. But that has been ruled out now.

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It has ? When did that happen?

I dont think the death penalty is as neccesary today and i think we should always err on the side of life if only to allow the grace of God to work in some individuals and bring them to repentance. but neither do i believe it is always immoral or contradictory to scripture or the faith. The catechism should have been left alone.

It adds absolutly no more weight to the pro life cause because.

1. There is a difference between the innocent and guilty

2. Those in favour of Abortion have no interest in what the church teaches whatsoever

What it does do is further undermine moral absolutes and the moral authority of the church. It encourages those who are seeking to destroy the catholic faith and will only serve to increase political pressure on the church to change its teachings even further. This is not a good thing, this is as far from a good thing as is possible. It shows at the very least weakness in the church a weakness her enemies will be only too ready to exploit. It shows the church is ready to capitulate to modern conceptions of morality and their fear of political machinery is stronger than their faith in God.

This is terrible news

I didn't know the Pope had the authority to alter the Catechism, even if what he did to it makes sense and stays in line with what the Catholic Church teaches. Guess you learn something new everyday.

But I personally agree with this decision I suppose. I mean, think of how many innocent people are on Death Row right now, not to mention how long it actually takes for people to actually get executed on Death Row sometimes. It's tantamount to torture in my opinion. Besides, if what a person did really is that bad, I think prison could be a lot worse than a mercifully quick death. But that's going a bit dark. If a person has the capacity to truly change, then at least this time spent in prison could be used to rehabilitate the criminal in question and help them to become a much better member of society... ah, but if only it were that simple. I know that it's not, unfortunately. But I wish that it were.

chevyontheriver said:

I am happy for you, and I can see your point. But I wish he would have left it alone. I wish he would have done something more on the order of capably explaining that the death penalty is essentially never justified where there are modern prisons in stable countries. I hear that Nebraska had a recent ballot question on the death penalty where 60% of the voters wanted the death penalty. THAT is a problem, and that isn't going to automagically change because of pope Francis changing the catechism.

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I found a really informed take on the Catechism change regarding the death penalty: two articles by John Finnis (one and two). He doesn't fully convince me of his position but he addresses the issue very well from the New Natural Lawyer perspective.

Yes, God bless Franciscus with some wisdom please. The development in church is close to unbearable to the laity and I'm sure clerics as well.

A shift in leadership or a reawakening of those currently in office would do a lot of good I believe.

Just watched a video on twitter of last few moments of francis' audience to day... at the end you can clearly hear the crowd chanting Vigano Vigano Vigano. It really brings home the depth of this crisis

The Grouch said:

Just watched a video on twitter of last few moments of francis' audience to day... at the end you can clearly hear the crowd chanting Vigano Vigano Vigano. It really brings home the depth of this crisis

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He's lucky that this isn't the middle ages with that kind of uproar going on.

Basil the Great said:

I am so happy about Pope Francis declaring the death penalty inadmissible in all cases that I could leap for joy! I know that some Catholics are not pleased with Pope Francis and some here might not be happy with his change in the teaching on capital punishment, but I believe that it makes the case against abortion stronger, as it shows more consistency in protecting human life.

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I’m a sometimes Pope Francis.

I do not want to call out the Pope due to my respect for the position, even if I would rather a traditionalist in charge.

On the case of homosexuality and it’s cover up I’m against him, as the evidence is stacking up against him.

But here I agree with him. If you claim to be pro-life in regards to abortion you cannot then defend capital punishment.

I am honestly confused by those somehow equating the killing of an innocent in the womb with the state-sanctioned execution of an adult who has been found guilty of premeditated murder or other heinous crime.


The two do not seem at all analogous to me. I believe that we can have a "consistent life ethic" by levying the most serious punishment possible against those who intentionally show the most serious disregard for life - by causing them to forfeit their own lives.

Woodsy said:

I am honestly confused by those somehow equating the killing of an innocent in the womb with the state-sanctioned execution of an adult who has been found guilty of premeditated murder or other heinous crime.


The two do not seem at all analogous to me. I believe that we can have a "consistent life ethic" by levying the most serious punishment possible against those who intentionally show the most serious disregard for life - by causing them to forfeit their own lives.

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Absolutely.

Basil the Great said:

Most of Europe has been way ahead of the U.S. in terms of opposition to the death penalty. By the way, as much as I have been a fan of Pope Francis, I am also concerned about the sex abuse scandal and what he might have known about it.

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Just be careful not to fall into super-montanism to such a degree that you depart from Christianity itself.

There has been a church prior to Franciscus too, remember that.