Did animals live longer than now before the flood?

DogmaHunter said:

same thing

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Saying the Flood was a miracle is not the same thing as appealing to miracles.

God doesn't "appeal to miracles."

God tells nature what to do, and nature obeys.

God's commands to nature + nature's obedience = miracles.

The appeal process can take a hike.

AV1611VET said:

Saying the Flood was a miracle is not the same thing as appealing to miracles.

God doesn't "appeal to miracles."

God tells nature what to do, and nature obeys.

God's commands to nature + nature's obedience = miracles.

The appeal process can take a hike.

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overriding nature = suspending / violating natural law

That's magic.

DogmaHunter said:

overriding nature = suspending / violating natural law

That's magic.

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Either you work for Disney, a toy store, you're in the Jim Stott Magic Fan Club, or you're an academian.

Which is it?

Mabye all the above, or some combination thereof?

This is another pointless argument, as to a Christian the difference between magic and miracles is quite clear but to an atheist they cannot see it.

Strathos said:

This is another pointless argument, as to a Christian the difference between magic and miracles is quite clear but to an atheist they cannot see it.

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Nature is their god, and their god is obedient to no one but herself.

I imagine the thought of nature obeying the command of a transcendent God is anathema to them.

AV1611VET said:

Either you work for Disney, a toy store, you're in the Jim Stott Magic Fan Club, or you're an academian.

Which is it?

Mabye all the above, or some combination thereof?

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Neither of the above.

Strathos said:

This is another pointless argument, as to a Christian the difference between magic and miracles is quite clear but to an atheist they cannot see it.

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The difference seems to be nothing more then who is doing the trick.
If it's God, then it's a miracle.
If it's Harry Potter, then it's magic.

But the trick is the same in principle: a suspension / violation of natural law

AV1611VET said:

Nature is their god, and their god is obedient to no one but herself.

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That makes no sense.
Nature doesn't fit into any definition of any theistic god.

I imagine the thought of nature obeying the command of a transcendent God is anathema to them.

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Nature has no sentience and therefor is not capable of "obeying".

DogmaHunter said:

The difference seems to be nothing more then who is doing the trick.
If it's God, then it's a miracle.
If it's Harry Potter, then it's magic.

But the trick is the same in principle: a suspension / violation of natural law

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Maybe an analogy would help.

Magic is when you use a cheat code already programmed into a video game to break the rules of the game.

A miracle is when the programmer of the game rewrites the code to break the rules of the game.

Strathos said:

Maybe an analogy would help.

Magic is when you use a cheat code already programmed into a video game to break the rules of the game.

A miracle is when the programmer of the game rewrites the code to break the rules of the game.

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I disagree with that analogy.
If it's programmed in, then it's not a violation of its coding. At best, it might be a rare event.
But it wouldn't be an event that was "impossible, yet happened anyway".

A "rewrite of the code" isn't a proper analogy either. Because that would entail permanently altering the code (the "physics"), after which it again wouldn't be a violation or suspension of the code / physics.

The whole idea of miracles / magic, is that the physics (the "coding") is being ignored.

DogmaHunter said:

I disagree with that analogy.
If it's programmed in, then it's not a violation of its coding. At best, it might be a rare event.
But it wouldn't be an event that was "impossible, yet happened anyway".

A "rewrite of the code" isn't a proper analogy either. Because that would entail permanently altering the code (the "physics"), after which it again wouldn't be a violation or suspension of the code / physics.

The whole idea of miracles / magic, is that the physics (the "coding") is being ignored.

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Cheat codes allow you to ignore the normal coding of the game, but it's limited by what the programmer allows.

Rewriting the base code allows you to change the rules completely.

DogmaHunter said:

That makes no sense.
Nature doesn't fit into any definition of any theistic god.

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That won't stop academia from worshiping her.

Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

DogmaHunter said:

Nature has no sentience and therefor is not capable of "obeying".

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Matthew 8:27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!

Luke 8:25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

Strathos said:

Cheat codes allow you to ignore the normal coding of the game, but it's limited by what the programmer allows.

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Cheat codes are part of the programming. There's no violating of the coding going on when using them. At best, how to activate them is not made public. But the point remains: it's not a violation of the coding, if the coding allows for it.

Rewriting the base code allows you to change the rules completely.

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And permanently. So whatever happens next that the newly written code allows, still is no violation or suspension of the coding in place.

But that is exactly how miracles (and magic) are defined: they violate and/or suspend the coding in place.

These are things that are impossible, according to the coding, yet happen anyway.

AV1611VET said:

That won't stop academia from worshiping her.

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Makes no sense to me.
Unless perhaps if you completely redefine what "worship" means.

DogmaHunter said:

Unless perhaps if you completely redefine what "worship" means.

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It doesn't matter how I define worship.

It's how God defines worship that counts.

If the Bible says atheists worship nature, who am I to disagree?

DogmaHunter said:

Makes no sense to me.
Unless perhaps if you completely redefine what "worship" means.

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Worship is praise. You know, the way evolutionists praise the way mindless nature installed God's superior intelligence inside Apes. It must be really sacred to them since none of them can tell us publicly. They've all got the hush mouth. Amen?

AV1611VET said:

It doesn't matter how I define worship.

It's how God defines worship that counts.

If the Bible says atheists worship nature, who am I to disagree?

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A smart person?

Nevermind.

Aman777 said:

Worship is praise. You know, the way evolutionists praise the way mindless nature installed God's superior intelligence inside Apes. It must be really sacred to them since none of them can tell us publicly. They've all got the hush mouth. Amen?

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I don't "praise" evolution theory any more then I praise "atoms" or "plate tectonics" or "gravity".

You're not making any sense.

Aman777 said: ↑
Worship is praise. You know, the way evolutionists praise the way mindless nature installed God's superior intelligence inside Apes.

DogmaHunter said:

I don't "praise" evolution theory any more then I praise "atoms" or "plate tectonics" or "gravity".

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Sure you do every time you proclaim or praise the falsehood that mindless nature evolved God's superior intelligence in prehistoric people. Your cannot repeat this magic, nor can you tell us the process by which it happens. Neither can you explain WHY prehistoric people showed the traits of any other animal UNTIL the Ark arrived 11k years ago.

Human superior intelligence can NOT be shown in ANY other animal because intelligence does NOT evolve. We inherited it from Adam who was made with the ability to know both good and evil, like God. Genesis 3:22

juvenissun said:

Eve was made in the Garden. There is nothing wrong with it.
Animals were NOT made in the Garden. Animals are not allowed in the Garden.

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Then how did the serpent get in? Sneak in maybe, when God wasn't paying attention?