Guns in the church

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,750
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,779.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Mark 6:17-20 For Herod himself had sent and arrested John and had him bound in prison, all on account of Herodias, wife of his brother Philip. He had married her, though John used to say to Herod, “It is not right for you to possess your own brother’s wife.” Herodias herself was furious with him for this and wanted to have him executed, but she could not do it, for Herod had a deep respect for John, knowing that he was a just and holy man, and protected him. He used to listen to him and be profoundly disturbed, and yet he enjoyed hearing him.

Luke 18:2-5 “Once upon a time,” he said, “there was a magistrate in a town who had neither fear of God nor respect for his fellow-men. There was a widow in the town who kept coming to him, saying, ‘Please protect me from the man who is trying to ruin me.’ And for a long time he refused. But later he said to himself, ‘Although I don’t fear God and have no respect for men, yet this woman is such a nuisance that I shall give judgment in her favour, or else her continual visits will be the death of me!’”

Romans 13:3-4 The honest citizen has no need to fear the keepers of law and order, but the dishonest man will always be nervous of them. If you want to avoid this anxiety just lead a law-abiding life, and all that can come your way is a word of approval. The officer is God’s servant for your protection. But if you are leading a wicked life you have reason to be alarmed. The “power of the law” which is vested in every legitimate officer, is no empty phrase. He is, in fact, divinely appointed to inflict God’s punishment upon evil-doers.

Genesis 19:8 Look, I have two daughters who are still virgins. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do whatever you want with them. But don't do anything to these men; they are guests in my house, and I must protect them.”

Exodus 23:20 [ Promises and Instructions ] “I will send an angel ahead of you to protect you as you travel and to bring you to the place which I have prepared.

Exodus 30:16 Collect this money from the people of Israel and spend it for the upkeep of the Tent of my presence. This tax will be the payment for their lives, and I will remember to protect them.”

Numbers 14:9 Do not rebel against the Lord and don't be afraid of the people who live there. We will conquer them easily. The Lord is with us and has defeated the gods who protected them; so don't be afraid.”

Numbers 31:50 So we are bringing the gold ornaments, armlets, bracelets, rings, earrings, and necklaces that each of us has taken. We offer them to the Lord as a payment for our lives, so that he will protect us.”

Deuteronomy 13:8 But do not let any of them persuade you; do not even listen to them. Show them no mercy or pity, and do not protect them.

Deuteronomy 19:2-3 divide the territory into three parts, each with a city that can be easily reached. Then any of you that kill will be able to escape to one of them for protection.

Deuteronomy 23:15 [ Various Laws ] “If slaves run away from their owners and come to you for protection, do not send them back.

Deuteronomy 32:10 “He found them wandering through the desert, a desolate, wind-swept wilderness. He protected them and cared for them, as he would protect himself.

Deuteronomy 33:25 May his towns be protected with iron gates, And may he always live secure.”

Joshua 9:26 So this is what Joshua did: he protected them and did not allow the people of Israel to kill them.

Joshua 20:5 If the one looking for revenge follows you there, the people of the city must not hand you over to that one. They must protect you because you killed the person accidentally and not out of anger.

1 Samuel 2:2 “No one is holy like the Lord; there is none like him, no protector like our God.

1 Samuel 10:1 Then Samuel took a jar of olive oil and poured it on Saul's head, kissed him, and said, “The Lord anoints you as ruler of his people Israel. You will rule his people and protect them from all their enemies. And this is the proof to you that the Lord has chosen you to be the ruler of his people:

1 Samuel 25:16 They protected us day and night the whole time we were with them looking after our flocks.

1 Samuel 26:15 David answered, “Abner, aren't you the greatest man in Israel? So why aren't you protecting your master, the king? Just now someone entered the camp to kill your master.

1 Samuel 25:21 David had been thinking, “Why did I ever protect that fellow's property out here in the wilderness? Not a thing that belonged to him was stolen, and this is how he pays me back for the help I gave him!

2 Samuel 21:10 Then Saul's concubine Rizpah, the daughter of Aiah, used sackcloth to make a shelter for herself on the rock where the corpses were, and she stayed there from the beginning of harvest until the autumn rains came. During the day she would keep the birds away from the corpses, and at night she would protect them from wild animals.

2 Kings 11:7 The two groups that go off duty on the Sabbath are to stand guard at the Temple to protect the king.

2 Kings 11:11 and he stationed the men with drawn swords all around the front of the Temple, to protect the king.

2 Kings 19:34 I will defend this city and protect it, for the sake of my own honor and because of the promise I made to my servant David.’”

Judith 9:11 Your power does not depend on the size and strength of an army. You are a God who cares for the humble and helps the oppressed. You give support and protection to people who are weak and helpless; you save those who have lost hope.

1 Maccabees 4:7 They saw the huge Gentile army of experienced troops wearing armor and protected by cavalry.

1 Maccabees 5:10-11 and sent the following letter to Judas and his brothers: The Gentiles around us are joining forces under Timothy. We have fled to this fortress for protection, and now they are getting ready to capture it and destroy us.

1 Maccabees 6:35 The huge animals were distributed among the infantry units. A thousand men, protected by chain armor and bronze helmets, were stationed with each elephant. Each animal was also accompanied by a special force of 500 cavalry,

1 Maccabees 6:37 A strong, protected wooden platform was securely fastened by a special harness to the back of each elephant. Three soldiers rode on each animal, in addition to the elephant driver.

1 Maccabees 6:38 Lysias placed the rest of the cavalry on the two flanks of the army where they could be protected by the infantry while harassing the enemy.

1 Maccabees 8:12 But they maintained their friendship with their allies and those who relied on them for protection. They conquered kings near and far, and everyone who heard of their reputation was afraid of them.
1 Maccabees 9:12 Bacchides took his position on the right. The infantry advanced, protected on both sides by the cavalry, and the war trumpets were blown. The soldiers of Judas also sounded their trumpets.

1 Maccabees 10:11 He ordered the builders to use squared stones for the city walls and for the protecting wall around Mount Zion. This was done.

1 Maccabees 11:16 While Ptolemy reached the peak of his power, Alexander fled to Arabia to find protection,

1 Maccabees 14:29 Often when wars broke out in the country, Simon son of Mattathias, a priest of the Jehoiarib family, and his brothers risked their lives in protecting our nation, our Temple, and our Law against our enemies. They have brought great glory to our nation.

1 Maccabees 15:20 We have decided to accept the shield and grant them protection.

2 Maccabees 10:30 These five men surrounded Judas, protecting him with their own armor and showering the enemy with arrows and thunderbolts. The enemy forces then became so confused and bewildered that they broke ranks, and the Jews cut them to pieces,

Proverbs 18:19 Help your relatives and they will protect you like a strong city wall, but if you quarrel with them, they will close their doors to you.

Proverbs 29:10 Bloodthirsty people hate anyone who's honest, but righteous people will protect the life of such a person.

Proverbs 31:8 “Speak up for people who cannot speak for themselves. protect the rights of all who are helpless.

Proverbs 31:9 Speak for them and be a righteous judge. protect the rights of the poor and needy.”

Song of Solomon 8:9 If she is a wall, we will build her a silver tower. But if she is a gate, we will protect her with panels of cedar.

Sirach 4:9protect people from those who want to wrong them, and be firm in your judgments.

Sirach 29:20 So help your neighbor as much as you can, but protect yourself against the dangers involved.

Sirach 37:5 A real friend will help you against your enemies and protect you in the fight.

Jeremiah 21:11-12 [ Judgment on the Royal House of Judah ] The Lord told me to give this message to the royal house of Judah, the descendants of David: “Listen to what I, the Lord, am saying. See that justice is done every day. protect the person who is being cheated from the one who is cheating him. If you don't, the evil you are doing will make my anger burn like a fire that cannot be put out.

Jeremiah 22:3 “I, the Lord, command you to do what is just and right. protect the person who is being cheated from the one who is cheating him. Do not mistreat or oppress aliens, orphans, or widows; and do not kill innocent people in this holy place.

Jeremiah 31:22 How long will you hesitate, faithless people? I have created something new and different, as different as a woman protecting a man.”

Baruch 1:12 Then the Lord will strengthen us and be our guide. Nebuchadnezzar and his son Belshazzar will protect us, and we will be loyal to them as long as we live; then they will be pleased with us.

Ezekiel 11:3 They say, ‘We will soon be building houses again. The city is like a cooking pot, and we are like the meat in it, but at least it protects us from the fire.’

Ezekiel 23:24 They will attack you from the north, bringing a large army with chariots and supply wagons. protected by shields and helmets, they will surround you. I will hand you over to them, and they will judge you by their own laws.

John 17:12 While I was with them, I kept them safe by the power of your name, the name you gave me. I protected them, and not one of them was lost, except the man who was bound to be lost—so that the scripture might come true.

2 Corinthians 12:9 But his answer was: “My grace is all you need, for my power is greatest when you are weak.” I am most happy, then, to be proud of my weaknesses, in order to feel the protection of Christ's power over me.

Revelation 7:15 That is why they stand before God's throne and serve him day and night in his temple. He who sits on the throne will protect them with his presence.

God protects his people and God uses people to protect those who need it. Some of the methods are preventive like walls, some use neccessary force to subdue.
 
Upvote 0

Childofgodharrison

Active Member
Aug 27, 2018
279
66
59
Abilene
✟34,063.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I have recently had a number of discussions with Christians from various walks about guns in the church or around certain ministries.

Before I begin I want to make it clear, I do NOT live in fear but I am also cognizant of the increasingly dark world in which we live. One thing I like to teach is that we need to make sure that to the outside observer, we never act and speak in a way that causes them to confuse us with the evil that is among us. We need to be light in a world that really is getting darker. That said....

12 years ago we had the Amish school shooting in Lancaster, PA where 10 young innocent girls were lined up and shot. I believe by the time it all ended, there were 6 dead and 5 wounded. When this happened it became clear, at least to me, that this kind of event could happen anywhere. Since then, we have seen more and more innocents put to death because of their faith. In 2015, as one more example, we had the Charleston, SC church shooting where we saw 9 more die.

The question is, should we just lay down, expose our backs, and allow innocent lives to be taken? Or, should we defend innocent lives from senseless acts not done specifically because the victims were Christians, but rather, because generally the shooter has come off his meds or is otherwise influenced to do evil because of a culture that is shaping that paradigm?

As a people of God, we should become the "just who live by faith." But let's not confuse faith with belief which we often do in today's religious culture. Rather, faith comes by hearing the word of God (Paul) and is dead without works (James). Combined, the just live by hearing the word of God and acting on what they hear. So, has the word of God told us to remain soft targets for the evil and insane? Or do we have a God-given right to protect ourselves?

Exodus 22:2-3 “If a thief is caught in the act of breaking into a house and is struck and killed in the process, the person who killed the thief is not guilty of murder. But if it happens in daylight, the one who killed the thief is guilty of murder.”

Luke 11:21 “When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own mansion, his property is safe.”

There is little room above to confuse the intent here. If somebody breaks into your home at night, and you kill him, you are not guilty because you have protected what has been entrusted to you by God. The Luke verse also, gives permission to guard what has been entrusted to you. Now consider...

Luke 22:35 And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing." (36) Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. (37) For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end." (38) So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."

So, the money bag about to go through some sketchy areas and it is ok to have the sword for defense.

Folks, there is a difference, biblically and culturally, between revenge and defense. If God has entrusted us pastors with a group of people to nourish and protect and we leave the doors unguarded and open to anyone who might be capable of doing what we have seen done already over and over and over again... then we are not protecting what God has entrusted us with.

This is a tough issue because none of us WANTS to EVER have to use force for anything like this. But we have to be honest with ourselves... if we would be willing to stand and watch a thief in our home raise a weapon and take out a spouse or child and willingly do nothing, then perhaps the idea of a few TRAINED congregants who carry a weapon among the assembly is not for you. But if you understand that evil has no biblical or godly right to take the life of innocence and we would defend the spouse or child... then we need to be consistent and protect the largest soft targets Christianity has.... the churches themselves.

I suggest that each church or ministry have, depending on the size, a few trained firearm carriers and that we pray they NEVER have to use them. But, have them just in case somebody decides to turn our church, or ministry into an Amish school house.

Your thoughts?

As believers when it is our time to go, it is our time to go. Get your life right and don't worry about defending yourself. If it's not your time you'll be okay.
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
As believers when it is our time to go, it is our time to go. Get your life right and don't worry about defending yourself. If it's not your time you'll be okay.
Gee, thanks for the advice person who knows nothing about me but who seems to know I have fallen from grace and need to get my life right. :doh::scratch::oldthumbsup:

You might want to read the entire thread and get an idea of how thoughts and conclusions were drawn and EVEN CHANGED before nitpicking one post with little understanding of the person who wrote it!
 
Upvote 0

Childofgodharrison

Active Member
Aug 27, 2018
279
66
59
Abilene
✟34,063.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Gee, thanks for the advice person who knows nothing about me but who seems to know I have fallen from grace and need to get my life right. :doh::scratch::oldthumbsup:

You might want to read the entire thread and get an idea of how thoughts and conclusions were drawn and EVEN CHANGED before nitpicking one post with little understanding of the person who wrote it!
I wasn't trying to condemn you. I just said as a believer we should not carry a gun period. I know that there have been shootings, but like I said if it's time to die , it's time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ken Rank
Upvote 0

James of Arc

Venomous Turtle
Site Supporter
Apr 4, 2016
3,068
1,272
.
✟30,954.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
In this nation we have God given rights in our constitution and the bill of rights. In these God given rights we are given the right to keep and bear arms. God gave us these rights to use them to keep us safe from corruption. A person who is trying to kill us is a corrupt person and we are allowed to eliminated this corrupt person by using our God given rigjts anywhere in the land that we are at may it be church, home, grocery store, wal-mart, local library, car dealership and Masonic lodge.
If you do not believe we have God given rights then you will have controversy in your decision making and probable not know the answer to most of lifes questions.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Darkhorse
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I wasn't trying to condemn you. I just said as a believer we should not carry a gun period. I know that there have been shootings, but like I said if it's time to die , it's time.
I don't disagree with God being in control of when we come and go. But we have NT examples of carrying the sword (some idiomatic, some literal) and we have a God that does not change give a commandment that says we have a right to defend ourselves using deadly force. If HE saw fit to give such instruction, then isn't your conclusion, respectfully, a little short of where He goes with this?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Darkhorse
Upvote 0

Childofgodharrison

Active Member
Aug 27, 2018
279
66
59
Abilene
✟34,063.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In this nation we have God given rights in our constitution and the bill of rights. In these God given rights we are given the right to keep and bear arms. God gave us these rights to use them to keep us safe from corruption. A person who is trying to kill us is a corrupt
That wasn't God it was the government
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,284
20,283
US
✟1,476,689.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As believers when it is our time to go, it is our time to go. Get your life right and don't worry about defending yourself. If it's not your time you'll be okay.

If that were true, then it would apply to any and every type of avoidance of death or injury, not just using a weapon. Even to turn and run would be a sin.

Then Paul was in sin by escaping (and even seeking Roman military protection) from people who wanted to kill him. He should have accepted his fate and let it happen.
 
Upvote 0

Phil 1:21

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2017
5,869
4,399
United States
✟144,842.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I wasn't trying to condemn you. I just said as a believer we should not carry a gun period. I know that there have been shootings, but like I said if it's time to die , it's time.
And what if God decides to use someone with a gun for His divine purposes?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Darkhorse
Upvote 0

Childofgodharrison

Active Member
Aug 27, 2018
279
66
59
Abilene
✟34,063.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If that were true, then it would apply to any and every type of avoidance of death or injury, not just using a weapon. Even to turn and run would be a sin.

Then Paul was in sin by escaping (and even seeking Roman military protection) from people who wanted to kill him. He should have accepted his fate and let it happen.
Even if you shoot and kill someone in self defense it's still murder according to God's law.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,284
20,283
US
✟1,476,689.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Even if you shoot and kill someone in self defense it's still murder according to God's law.

You said:

As believers when it is our time to go, it is our time to go. Get your life right and don't worry about defending yourself. If it's not your time you'll be okay.

You went far further than "if you shoot and kill someone in self defense it's still murder according to God's law."

But you're going to have to go to some distance to say so broadly "it's still murder according to God's law," because God's law says, and I quote:

If a thief is caught breaking in at night and is struck a fatal blow, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed -- Exodus 22:2
 
Upvote 0

Childofgodharrison

Active Member
Aug 27, 2018
279
66
59
Abilene
✟34,063.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And what if God decides to use someone with a gun for His divine purposes?
If he does use someone, that person is one the other side. He does use to devil to pay back. If someone was going to shoot me, I would turn and run and take it in the back. I don't want to see it coming. If I shoot back and kill this person it's still murder, in God's eyes.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,284
20,283
US
✟1,476,689.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If he does use someone, that person is one the other side. He does use to devil to pay back. If someone was going to shoot me, I would turn and run and take it in the back. I don't want to see it coming. If I shoot back and kill this person it's still murder, in God's eyes.

You've never actually had that happen to you, have you?
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I wasn't trying to condemn you. I just said as a believer we should not carry a gun period.
IMO, if you do not want to carry a gun...don't. That has nothing to do with what others choose to do, however.

And as for institutions, it is up to them to decide if they want armed guards, etc. or not. In some cases, it might prevent mass shootings, although in others it probably would not.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Darkhorse
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Childofgodharrison

Active Member
Aug 27, 2018
279
66
59
Abilene
✟34,063.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You said:



You went far further than "if you shoot and kill someone in self defense it's still murder according to God's law."

But you're going to have to go to some distance to say so broadly "it's still murder according to God's law," because God's law says, and I quote:

If a thief is caught breaking in at night and is struck a fatal blow, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed -- Exodus 22:2
Yes, it's still murder in God's eyes. That's like saying if a woman is raped and get pregnant because of it, it is ok to have an abortion. It's still killing the baby. Exodus 22:2 was before Jesus came. After Jesus died the law changed.
 
Upvote 0

Phil 1:21

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2017
5,869
4,399
United States
✟144,842.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, it's still murder in God's eyes. That's like saying if a woman is raped and get pregnant because of it, it is ok to have an abortion. It's still killing the baby. Exodus 22:2 was before Jesus came. After Jesus died the law changed.
The baby is innocent. I trust you understand that.

But since you brought up rape, is it a sin for a woman to defend herself from a rapist? Or should she just lie there and take it?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Darkhorse
Upvote 0

Childofgodharrison

Active Member
Aug 27, 2018
279
66
59
Abilene
✟34,063.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The baby is innocent. I trust you understand that.

But since you brought up rape, is it a sin for a woman to defend herself from a rapist? Or should she just lie there and take it?
No she should fight, but not try to kill. If she does fight she will probably be killed.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Childofgodharrison

Active Member
Aug 27, 2018
279
66
59
Abilene
✟34,063.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
May I politely suggest you study scripture a little better?
Matthew 5:21-22, 21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
 
Upvote 0