Hi Brian, just wondering why you have not replied to my earlier posts (e.g.
post # 42)?
no Dave I do not overlook that the church is Israel.
If you believe God's Chruch is ISRAEL as described as those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD then what is your argument?
In a certain sense it is and that gives strength towards your view. I laid out a short list of scriptures for you to refute which shows a destiny in prophecy yet to come regarding national Israel.
Not sure how to read this. You seem to be agreeing that God's Chruch is ISRAEL as per your earlier statement above then you talk about refuting some scriptures regarding "National ISRAEL"?
So do you agree as your saying above that God's Church is ISRAEL? Adding the Hebrew word NATIONAL or "NATION" does not add any weight to an argument saying that ISRAEL is a nations therefore not a Chruch as the HEBREW word meaning (posted earlier)
The HEBREW word used for "NATION" is dependent of course on the context of the scripture used and chapter. In the OLD TESTAMENT the scripture references can be applied to ISRAEL as a Holy or Great Nation (
Genesis 12:2; 17:20; 18:18; 21:18; 46:3;
Exodus 19:6; 32:10 etc) or the surrounding gentile people.
The HEBREW WORD for NATIONS is [H1471] גּוי גּי'; gôy gôy simply means;
a massing of people;
ISRAEL as a Holy Nation = a Holy mass of people
ISREAL as a Great Nation = a Great [MIGHTY] mass of people
This is inline with God's promise to Abraham...
GENESIS 22:17[17], That in blessing I will bless you, and
in multiplying I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is on the sea shore; and your seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
A NATION in the HEBREW word meaning is a massing or mass of people this is the same as God's Church is a massing or mass of people.
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NATIONS as applied to God's people in the OLD COVENANT...
EXODUS 19:6 [6], And you shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and an
HOLY NATION. THESE ARE THE WORDS YOU SHALL SPEAK TO THE CHILDREN OF
ISREAL.
Applied to Christians as God's ISREAL in the NEW COVENANT...
2 PETER 2:9 [9], But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an
HOLY NATION, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
The OLD TESTAMENT scriptures are the keys to unlock the meaning of the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures together the OLD and NEW Testament make up the Word of God and we are to live by EVERY WORD of it (
Matthew 4:4)
God's ISREAL according to the OLD and NEW COVENANTS are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. Gentiles are now grafted in (
Romans 11:16-27)
I agreed with you on the new covenant being the only one for salvation. I provided proof texts which refuted your position
So here you are saying you provided proof texts to refute David's position? I thought you agreed with David's poistion? Sorry Brian please forgive my confusion here. So do you believe God's Church is ISRAEL as you have stated above or not? What texts do you believe you have provided that refute David's position that God's Church is not ISRAEL?
Now for my sake, how do you believe your interpretation of these same texts that you believe refute David's postions that the Church is not God's ISRAEL are reconciled with all the scriptures provided from God's WORD in
post # 6,
posts # 7;
post #9 and
post # 11 that define who God's ISRAEL are according to God's WORD in the OLD and NEW COVENANT?
so in a debate you would need to answer my argument as to why Zech 14, Luke one a literal binding of Satan for 1000 years and Ezekiel 36 showing Israel 1st being brought back from being scaterred and then given a heart after God and having the reproach of the nations being taken away. i laid out a lot of specifics which contradict your position.
I will not presume to answer for David as this is not addressed to me. I will provide some comments however on the books of Ezekiel and Zachariah that may be of interest.
Did you know that both the books you are using in Zachariah and Ezekiel in reference to God's people ISRAEL being scattered among the nations was written at the time when ISRAEL were scattered among the nations?
Both the books of Ezekiel and Zachariah were written during the ISRAELITES captivity and exhile to the empires of the Babylonians and Medes and Persians. (
EZEKIEL Wiki;
ZACHARIAH wiki).
The scripture references to the bringing back or restoration of ISRAEL from the nations can be seen from the book of Ezra 1-4. In the year 536 B.C., the Jewish exiles, empowered by Cyrus' decree, returned to Jerusalem. Their city lay in ruins, but they began it's restoration including the rebuilding of the temple, laying its foundation and also began working on building the city and city walls.
Here is a brief history:
Cyrus, in 536 B.C., allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem, but Cyrus died in 530 B.C., he was followed by Cambyses, who was followed by False Smerdis. Smerdis reigned only half a year, long enough for his soldiers to destroy a great many temples around the empire. It would seem that the earlier progress made of rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem was also ruined at this time, because, according to Haggai 2:18, in 520 BC the Israelites are again beginning work by laying the foundation of the temple. Very probably it was under Smerdis' rule that the Israelites gave up all hope of ever restoring their temple again. Haggai says, they stopped work believing "The time is not right", and he says that the temple was in "ruins".
Daniel 9: 25 reads "From the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem the street shall be built again and the walls, even in troublous times"
In 522 B.C., Darius I, a fairminded ruler, goes about setting things straight again in the Persian empire. With his support and Haggai's encouragement, temple construction is resumed. From 520-515 B.C. the work went forward, and the temple was built.
Basically from 536-457 B.C. the Israelites were a struggling group of people with no real government, city or well defined country. They built themselves houses, and managed to build a temple. It wasn't until Artaxerxes came to the throne 464 B.C. that we actually see them rebuilding the city. It was during Artaxerxes reign that the adversaries appealed to legislation to stop Israel, for they were "building a rebellious and evil city".
So we see Ezra receiving his decree from Artaxerxes in 457 BC. (In the seventh year of Artaxerxes) The decree gives further help in establishing the temple, but it also gives Israel the right to establish it's own laws. This is why this decree is so important to the re-establishment and rebuilding of Jerusalem!
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CONCLUSION: The books of Ezekiel and Zachariah were written at the time, in reference to the exhile of ISRAEL as they were in captivity among the nations to the BABYLONIAN and the Medes and Persian empires (scattered among the nations). The reference of coming out of the nations and the restoration of ISRAEL here is in reference to ISRAEL being free to rebuild Jerusalem as decreed and shown in the book of Ezra 1-4. The two books you reference do not support your view that ISRAEL is not God's people (Church) or those who BELIEVE and FOLOW God's WORD. It is a reference to the restoration and rebuilding of ISRAEL when they were in captivity among the nations.
Hope this helps.
. You seem to also ignore all the scriptures provided from God's WORD in post # 6, posts # 7; post #9 and post # 11 that clearly define who God's ISRAEL is according to God's WORD.
