ONE VERSE TOTALLY DESTROYS FREE WILL !

Dave L said:

If God does not control us, Satan does.

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Strong in Him said:

No.
We were made by God and in his image. Everything we have comes from him - including our ability to choose.

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Strong in Him said:

Sometimes, yes.
This obviously suggests that we make choices and sometimes get it wrong, not that God controls and micromanages our every movement - because he'd never get it wrong and we'd never sin.



We were created by God in the image of God; of course we would.
We have the ability to be kind, honest, thoughtful, creative, logical, scientific, musical etc etc because HE gave us those gifts, not because they developed through sin.
Are you saying that God relies on sin to give us character?

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Dave L said:

How can we have character apart from overcoming sin?

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Strong in Him said:

We have character because God gave us character.

Some people are funny; does that mean they've only discovered humour by overcoming sin? No - some are non Christians who give in to sin, and don't want to overcome the sin of rejecting God and having faith.
Children can also be very funny.
Some people are very kind; have they only learned kindness by overcoming sin? No - some people never seem to learn kindness. They "say it as it is" without thought for other people's feelings.
Children can be kind; some are carers from a young age and look after parents. What sin have they overcome to learn that?
Some non Christians who haven't overcome sin are very thoughtful, sensitive, generous etc etc - some Christians, who are apparently dead to sin, are none of those things.

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sdowney717 said:

Look up the word 'chose', 'chosen' or 'choose' in the NT scriptures, and you find them all in reference to us being chosen by God, not us choosing to be saved, believe, etc.....

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Dave L said:

“Not only this, but we also rejoice in sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance, character, and character, hope.” (Romans 5:3–4)

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Kersh said:

Really?

Below are 10 of the 14 times the word "choose" appears in the NT of the NIV (which is a Calvinist leaning translation itself). (I concede that the other 4 appear to be in the context you suggest, but I point this out only to show that the issue is far too complicated for a simple word study).

Matthew 19:12
For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

John 7:17
Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Acts 1:21
Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us,

Acts 6:3
Brothers and sisters, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them

Acts 15:22
[ The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers ] Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers.

Acts 15:25
So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul—

2 Corinthians 12:6
Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say,

Philippians 1:22
If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know!

James 4:4
You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

1 Peter 4:3
For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.

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sdowney717 said:

None of those are about salvation. As in us choosing to believe in Christ.
You left out all the verses where Christ chooses-chose us.
I don't read the NIV, I use the NKJV.

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sdowney717 said:

Choose, chose, chosen in the NKJV.

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Philippians 1:22
But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from mylabor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.
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Matthew 12:18
“Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He will declare justice to the Gentiles.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 20:16
So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”
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Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
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Mark 13:20
And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
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Luke 6:13
And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself;and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles:
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Luke 10:42
But one thing is needed, and Mary has chosen that good part, which will not be taken away from her.”
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Luke 14:7
[ Take the Lowly Place ] So He told a parable to those who were invited, when He noted how they chose the best places, saying to them:
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Luke 23:35
And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God.”
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John 13:18
[ Jesus Identifies His Betrayer ] “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 1:2
until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,
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Acts 1:15
[ Matthias Chosen ] And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,
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Acts 1:24
And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen
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Acts 6:1
[ Seven Chosen to Serve ] Now in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplying, there arose a complaint against the Hebrews by the Hellenists, because their widows were neglected in the daily distribution.
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Acts 6:5
And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch,
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Acts 9:15
But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.
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Acts 10:41
not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
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Acts 13:17
The God of this people Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He brought them out of it.
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Acts 15:7
And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 15:22
[ The Jerusalem Decree ] Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 15:25
it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
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Acts 15:40
but Paul chose Silas and departed, being commended by the brethren to the grace of God.
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Acts 22:14
Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 16:13
Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

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Kersh said:

I did exactly what you said only to show that it was a gross overgeneralization and oversimplification. As far as the translation goes, unless you are arguing that the NIV is not a valid translation, it shouldn't matter what translation you use -- the point is that biblically speaking, both God and man engage in the business of choosing. Whether this indeed points to synergism over monergism is more complicated than can be addressed in the window of time that I have. But, as I've said all along, the issue is more complicated than "such and such verse proves I'm right". Wesley and his Calvinist contemporaries (e.g., Spurgeon and Edwards) spent much time in thought and prayer sorting through what Scripture taught about this, and they came to very different conclusions on this one topic. We should not be so lax as to say that we can demonstrate one side or the other is right or wrong apart from intense and thoughtful prayer and study. Yet, so many on this thread (and I hate to say it, but yourself included) are trying so hard to throw out the magic bullet that proves one side right and the other side wrong. It's not so simple as that, and any attempt to make it so will inevitably lead to error.

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sdowney717 said:

Overwhelmingly, choose, chose, chosen, used in verses show God is the one doing the choosing of us.
Not the other way around, we are not talking about people choosing mundane things in verses, we are talking eternal salvation.

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Strong in Him said:

Suffering is not the same as sin.

In hard times and suffering, some people persevere, trust God and carry on, others sit down and whine about how difficult it all is and poor old them; still others use alcohol or other substances to cope.
How you react, that's character.
God can certainly teach us through suffering and develop patience, etc, in us - but that is not sin, and is not the same as saying that without sin we would have no character.

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Kersh said:

You're missing the point entirely, whether intentionally or inadvertently I cannot say. Either way, I don't have time right now to explain it to you any more than I already have. And, if it takes this long to help you see that the issue is more complicated than can be summarized in a single verse or word study, then I can only imagine how much time I would have to set aside for a meaningful and thoughtful discussion with you on the whole biblical counsel on the subject.

If you're truly interested in having that discussion, I have a busy two to three weeks ahead of me, but after that I would be able to devote more time to the discussion. But, the internet being what it is, with instant gratification and all that, I would be surprised if anyone inn internet land would take me up on that offer.

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Dave L said:

Does sin cause suffering?

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Strong in Him said:

Not always.
Suffering is sometimes due to circumstances - being made unemployed, being ill, losing possessions in a fire, earthquake or whatever.
I had M.E for 18 years - that wasn't because I sinned. I wasn't well enough to do my job, or to do many things. That wasn't a result of sin. At least, you could say that it was indirectly, because when Adam and Eve sinned, sickness and death came into the world as well; but it wasn't a result of, or punishment for, my sin.

And like I said, we are all made in God's image.
Some people are kind because they are kind. One of the most common questions is "why do bad things happen to good people, and why do they wicked prosper?" Even the psalmist asked that. Some people are humanists. They believe that human beings are the highest power there is - i.e there is no god - and in that belief, do an amazing amount of good. They are still sinners; they have good characters, yet they haven't overcome sin.

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Dave L said:

But we only overcome sin by God's grace.

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