Why didn't Jews circumscice people in the wilderness?

Chinchilla · Jul 6, 2018

Leviticus 12
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.

3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

Joshua 5
2 At that time the Lord said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time.

3 And Joshua made him sharp knives, and circumcised the children of Israel at the hill of the foreskins.

4 And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt.

5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.

6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the Lord: unto whom the Lord sware that he would not shew them the land, which the Lord sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.

7 And their children, whom he raised up in their stead, them Joshua circumcised: for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them by the way.

8 And it came to pass, when they had done circumcising all the people, that they abode in their places in the camp, till they were whole.

9 And the Lord said unto Joshua, This day have I rolled away the reproach of Egypt from off you. Wherefore the name of the place is called Gilgal unto this day.

10 And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.

Was the no circumcision a punishment from God ? Is there a benefit in having circumcision for the body or it is only for religious cleaning ? Was Adam without foreskin when he was created?

What does your Jewish tradition say about these things ? I know some old Rabbis who can even say how many children did Adam and Eve have by tradition , maybe they also know if Adam had foreskin/ navel ?

edit) Did not spell circumcision properly woops :cityh:

1 John 4:1 · Jul 6, 2018

Here's something interesting I found: http://biblehub.com/sermons/auth/blaikie/why_was_circumcision_suspended_in_the_wilderness.htm

Here's something from a Jewish perspective, the first answer here is interesting: https://judaism.stackexchange.com/q...sraelites-not-circumcised-in-the-desert/27321

tampasteve · Jul 6, 2018

Chinchilla said:
Was the no circumcision a punishment from God ?

The honest answer is that we do not know. Any answer is going to come from Tradition or people's interpretation of the scripture. I have found a couple of possibilities:
1. The fact that they were in a "God bubble" of sorts did not necessitate that they perform their part of the covenant. The constant miracles (wandering without end, manna, water, meat, etc. all provided by God) mean that they were close to God without having to perform that part of the covenant.

2. They did perform physical circumcision, but the verses are more about a higher plane, a religious thought circumcision.

3. God to told Moses to put it on hold until they entered the promised land but it was not recorded in writing, much as there is much Oral Law not recorded in writing.

4. They were holding off until they reached the promised land, much as they held off offering the Pesach. They should have done so but did not, and this was a disgrace. More can be read HERE.

Is there a benefit in having circumcision for the body or it is only for religious cleaning ?

There may be, but it is inconclusive really. People have theorized it is cleaner, but with reasonable hygiene that is not an issue either.

Was Adam without foreskin when he was created?

Of course we do not know for sure. However, Tradition states that he was not created with one, as he was made perfect in God's image. It may have grown after the fall from the Garden. More info can be found in Sanhedrin 38b. The Mitzvah to remove it did not come about until Abraham, much after Adam.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 6, 2018

Adam and Chavah were in physically perfect health , far beyond what anyone today has ever come close to !

There diet also had no poisons or toxins or chemicals contamination, to start with anyway, and was perfectly nutritious without anything lacking
or processed out by faulty fertilizers, pasteurization, homogenization, heating or any other kind of mankind's processing.

Chinchilla · Jul 6, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Adam and Chavah were in physically perfect health , far beyond what anyone today has ever come close to !

There diet also had no poisons or toxins or chemicals contamination, to start with anyway, and was perfectly nutritious without anything lacking
or processed out by faulty fertilizers, pasteurization, homogenization, heating or any other kind of mankind's processing.

Yea when I saw for example how milk is pasteurized I'm not sure that it's still milk or just white water with antibiotics .

I wonder if we still have all the trees which had fruit good for eating to this day or if flood destroyed many/most of them forever .

tampasteve · Jul 6, 2018

Chinchilla said:
Yea when I saw for example how milk is pasteurized I'm not sure that it's still milk or just white water with antibiotics .

I wonder if we still have all the trees which had fruit good for eating to this day or if flood destroyed many/most of them forever .

Maybe, many have just been lost to agriculture over time. Selective breeding and natural human choice have made certain fruits more productive and larger than their native counterparts. As such we loose the original, but gain a "better" fruit over time. Oranges, apples, grapes, etc. are all examples of fruits that are vastly different than the original wild variety.

Hank77 · Jul 6, 2018

@Chinchilla ,
I think it's because one couldn't eat the Passover unless they had been circumcised and they weren't celebrating the Passover when they were in the wilderness so there was no need for the right of circumcision. But once they passed over the Jordon into the land God had given to them they were commanded to celebrate the Passover once again. Therefore, they had to be circumcised/sealed first.
Reinstituting the circumcision would mean circumcising again on the eight day after the birth of a child.

EDIT: This has been proven to be incorrect. Sorry.

sdowney717 · Jul 6, 2018

Your answer is shown in v6, God destroyed all who did not believe. God led them round and round in the desert till all them died who were disobedient. None of them believed in the covenant God made with Abraham or their parents would have circumcised their boys. They were continually disobedient complainers and malcontents in many and all sorts of ways angering God the whole time, but not all were disobedient. The ones who God did not destroy must have believed in God's promises and covenant as they survived. The just shall live by their faith.
Circumcision was a sign in the flesh they were of the covenant God made with Abraham.
Gen 17, there is no passover involved.

9 And God said to Abraham, “As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.

Jude 5 English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterwards destroyed those who did not believe.

sdowney717 · Jul 6, 2018

12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

See God says an 'everlasting covenant, however in the New Covenant, which is not the same covenant and the OC has passed away, Paul says this,

1 Corinthians 7:18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

Galatians 5:3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

Hank77 · Jul 6, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Your answer is shown in v6, God destroyed all who did not believe. God led them round and round in the desert till all them died who were disobedient. None of them believed in the covenant God made with Abraham or their parents would have circumcised their boys. They were continually disobedient complainers and malcontents in many and all sorts of ways angering God the whole time, but not all were disobedient. The ones who God did not destroy must have believed in God's promises and covenant as they survived. The just shall live by their faith.

Jude 5 English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterwards destroyed those who did not believe.

The only males who God allowed to cross the Jordon were Joshua, Caleb, and those under 20 yrs. old.
The other spies representing the people were afraid and claimed that they couldn't defeat the people living in Canaan, they didn't trust God.

sdowney717 · Jul 6, 2018

Hank77 said:
The only males who God allowed to cross the Jordon were Joshua, Caleb, and those under 20 yrs. old.
The other spies representing the people were afraid and claimed that they couldn't defeat the people living in Canaan, they didn't trust God.

I know pretty amazing, they did not believe what God had said or done, they also wanted to go back to Egypt. And said they were brought out into the desert to be killed. Simply seeing God's amazing miracles He did for them was not enough to make them believe, Jesus said the same thing.

John 6:35-37 New King James Version (NKJV)
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [a]by no means cast out.

Exodus 16:3 And the children of Israel said to them, “Oh, that we had died by the hand of the Lord in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the pots of meat and when we ate bread to the full! For you have brought us out into this wilderness to kill this whole assembly with hunger.”

Exodus 17:3 And the people thirsted there for water, and the people complained against Moses, and said, “Why is it you have brought us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our livestock with thirst?”

AbbaLove · Jul 6, 2018

Chinchilla said:
Was the no circumcision a punishment from God ?

Wandering in the wilderness for 40 years was their punishment for being influenced by the pessimistic report of the ten spies instead of being encouraged by the optimistic report of Caleb and Joshua after the twelve returned 40 days from scouting out the Land.

One leader was chosen from each of their ancestors tribes. Caleb was from the tribe of Judah. One would have thought Joshua might be from the tribe of Benjamin rather than from the tribe of Ephraim. Joshua was chosen for his courage as a fierce warrior.

Numbers 13:30-31
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.

So why circumcise those males that would never enter the promised land. Wait until the exact number of males is known that will eventually cross the Jordan to enter the Promised Land.

Joshua 4:23
For the LORD your God dried up the waters of the Jordan before you until you had crossed over, just as He did to the Red Sea, which He dried up before us until we had crossed over.…

However, no sooner had they entered the Promised Land when Israel had sinned. All translations read that "Israel had sinned" even though it was just one man, Achan, "the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, was taken.

11 Isra’el has sinned. Yes, they have violated my covenant, which I commanded them. They have taken some of what was to have been set aside for destruction. They have stolen it, lied about it and put it with their own things. 12 This is why the people of Isra’el cannot stand before their enemies. They turn their backs on their enemies, because they have come under a curse. I won’t be with you any more unless you destroy the things meant for destruction that you have with you. (Joshua 7:11-12)

24 Y’hoshua, together with all Isra’el, took ‘Akhan, the son of Zerach, with the silver, the robe, the gold wedge, his sons, his daughters, his cattle, his donkeys, his sheep, his tent, and everything he had, and brought them up to the Akhor Valley. 25 Y’hoshua said, “Why have you brought trouble on us? Today Adonai will bring trouble on you!” Then all Isra’el stoned him to death; they burned them to ashes and stoned them. 26 Over him they piled a great mound of stones, which is there to this day. Finally Adonai turned away from his fierce anger ... .
(Joshua 7:24-26).

What, if any, irony/contrast might there be to the fact that Joshua was from the tribe of Ephraim; while Achan was from the tribe of Judah?

AbbaLove · Jul 6, 2018

Hank77 said:
I think it's because one couldn't eat the Passover unless they had been circumcised and they weren't celebrating the Passover when they were in the wilderness so there was no need for the right of circumcision.

Numbers 9:1-5
1 A year after Israel’s departure from Egypt, the LORD spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai. In the first month of that year He said,
2 “Tell the Israelites to celebrate the Passover at the prescribed time,
3 at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. Be sure to follow all My decrees and regulations concerning this celebration.”
4 So Moses told the people to celebrate the Passover
5 in the wilderness of Sinai as twilight fell on the fourteenth day of the month. And they celebrated the festival there, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Hank77 · Jul 6, 2018

AbbaLove said:
Numbers 9:1-5
1 A year after Israel’s departure from Egypt, the LORD spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai. In the first month of that year He said,
2 “Tell the Israelites to celebrate the Passover at the prescribed time,
3 at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. Be sure to follow all My decrees and regulations concerning this celebration.”
4 So Moses told the people to celebrate the Passover
5 in the wilderness of Sinai as twilight fell on the fourteenth day of the month. And they celebrated the festival there, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Well I messed that one up, Thanks for the correction. I was thinking of this scripture I guess...

Exo 12:25 And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the LORD will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service.
Exo 12:26 And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service?
Exo 12:27 That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 6, 2018

Chinchilla said:
Yea when I saw for example how milk is pasteurized I'm not sure that it's still milk or just white water with antibiotics .

I wonder if we still have all the trees which had fruit good for eating to this day or if flood destroyed many/most of them forever .

A multitude of multitudes of those trees grew after the flood without any problem,
until white man destroyed them in the last century or two.

Some might have been destroyed in earlier centuries by various tribes/ nations/ peoples, but this generation today is the worst ever seeking to destroy all that is good - soil, air, water, plants, trees, food supply, men's souls bought and sold like chattel, families destroyed, faith destroyed, without even a hint of remorse nor seeking Yahweh(God) for help nor for repentance.

Shimshon · Jul 6, 2018

Hank77 said:
Well I messed that one up, Thanks for the correction. I was thinking of this scripture I guess...

Exo 12:25 And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the LORD will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service.
Exo 12:26 And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service?
Exo 12:27 That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.

The land and the law are inextricably linked. You can't operate the law as given outside of the land, it was not given for that purpose. Every command set dealt with entering the land. This becomes even more clear when you look at the phrases "when you enter the land" and "the land swore to your fathers" in the Torah. Most every command set is given with these qualifiers.

Passover, like the Shabbat, was given before the law. But as mentioned in another thread, they were all given in the wilderness, as a promise of what was to come. When Israel would enter the land swore to their fathers.

The same as Yeshua, and his words. His commands point and lead to the Kingdom to come, the 'heavenly promised land'. Commands given before entering the heavenly land. The commands given Moses in the wilderness all pointed to the earthly promised land, while patterning and shadowing the heavenly land to come. Israel of old was not the heavenly promise, it was an earthly image of what was to come. The same with it's laws. The promise of eternal life does not come through the law but through the promise. Yeshua is the real image of the pattern foretold on the mountain. Both the law given Israel through Moses and the law given Israel through Yeshua foretold and lead to the heavenly land promised and swore to our fathers. A place where God dwells with his people, heaven comes down to earth and God reigns eternal. From within his children. A place we have yet to enter, but have received commands, through the Spirit on how to be.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 6, 2018

Hank77 said:
The only males who God allowed to cross the Jordon were Joshua, Caleb, and those under 20 yrs. old.
The other spies representing the people were afraid and claimed that they couldn't defeat the people living in Canaan, they didn't trust God.

"under 20 years old" at the time they left Egypt.

They could be 60 years old by the time they entered the Promised Land.

Heber Book List · Jul 6, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
A multitude of multitudes of those trees grew after the flood without any problem,
until white man destroyed them in the last century or two.

Some might have been destroyed in earlier centuries by various tribes/ nations/ peoples, but this generation today is the worst ever seeking to destroy all that is good - soil, air, water, plants, trees, food supply, men's souls bought and sold like chattel, families destroyed, faith destroyed, without even a hint of remorse nor seeking Yahweh(God) for help nor for repentance.

Your first sentence is racist if you insist on leaving in the word 'white'.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jul 6, 2018

Heber Book List said:
Your first sentence is racist if you insist on leaving in the word 'white'.

No, it's not.

It is well known that formerly 'exalted'/ (in error) admired "white" man/ powers/ politics and policies in the usa AND around the world
now are recognized as severe oppressive destructive power ever since christopher columbus searched for america, and before then.

Heber Book List · Jul 6, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
No, it's not.

It is well known that formerly 'exalted'/ (in error) admired "white" man/ powers/ politics and policies in the usa AND around the world
now are recognized as severe oppressive destructive power ever since christopher columbus searched for america, and before then.

So absolutely no one else other than white men cut down the all the trees that have been cut down since the 1800s? I would like to see categorical proof that coloured people (ie non white) have not cut down trees in the past 200 years, please.

Why didn't Jews circumscice people in the wilderness?

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