God's punishment - another expression of God's Love and Grace?

God's ways are not like Mans....at all. So Im not too sure If our relationship with Him can be likened to A human-child relationship.....although I understand the desire to do so......Not that easy serving one whose ways are pass finding out....therefore we try to fashion one that we can understand.

Im also not sure if it is punishment from God that we receive....Maybe It is Him allowing us to reap what we sow. He lays before us blessings and cursings and asks us to choose....

Yeah that 's actually a good analogy. We are fallen so basically we have a 'skewed thinking' and God understands that beyond anything I could ever imagine. The Lord is loving and patient to show us the right way.
I have realised these past days that sometimes we are so focused on ourselves and our own perceived welfare that we miss the lesson God is trying to convey.

JesusYeshuaisLord said:

I have heard a lot of people say that oh if God was a loving God He wouldn't allow this or that or even punish anyone but what if all He is doing is exercise Grace and Love through His perfect punishment (He is Perfection, Love and Grace incarnate anyway)? What if all He is doing is what the parents above are doing? And He does exercise it on a grander scale so the punishment can be an act of Grace and Love for either the one that is being punished or the one that is being saved from the further actions of that teenager.

Now, I do hope I am not confusing Discipline and punishment, or are the two inseparable?

I would welcome comments and scriptures about that I haven't researched anything on that yet but thought I'd write this down here and discuss

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The Lord disciplines those of us who are His, like the perfect, Abba Father that He is. There are many, many verses/passages that speak to this. Here are but a few of them below.

BTW, I suppose "discipline" and "punishment" can be used interchangeably, but (to me anyway) the word "punishment" always seems to carry with it the sense that a price must be paid (and a retribution exacted) to atone for the sin(s) that we've committed. In the case of true Christians however, the retribution has already been inflicted/the price has already been paid for us by Another, so "discipline" seems the better term to use (the Lord's purpose in discipline is growing us in Christlikeness, not in making us pay for sins which have already been atoned for .. not that we could actually atone for them anyway!).


Yours and His,
David

JesusYeshuaisLord said:

This thought came to me this morning: What if God's punishment is just an expression of His Grace? Then I thought, hmm is it Grace or Love? Though can Grace go without Love?

Anyway here is a practical illustration:

If we were to compare a Parent-child relationship with a God-human beings relationship. God is the parent and we are the rebellious teenager.

If the rebellious teenager would do something bad (can be anything), then the parents would normally exercise discipline and may inflict a punishment for the teenager's action. Now, the teenager might view it as unfair, annoying or even evil. But in reality, the parent (usually) would inflict punishment (consequence of the teenager's action) for several reasons: Could be to teach a lesson, could be to demand the respect due, or to protect the teenager from worse consequences. It could also be a matter of life and death for the teenager or someone else. Now, we wouldn't see the parents as evil (again I'm talking about a punishment that fit the 'crime' not an extreme or unfair punishment), we would see it and the parent certainly sees it that way, as an act of love and care of the teenager or others involved.

I have heard a lot of people say that oh if God was a loving God He wouldn't allow this or that or even punish anyone but what if all He is doing is exercise Grace and Love through His perfect punishment (He is Perfection, Love and Grace incarnate anyway)? What if all He is doing is what the parents above are doing? And He does exercise it on a grander scale so the punishment can be an act of Grace and Love for either the one that is being punished or the one that is being saved from the further actions of that teenager.

Now, I do hope I am not confusing Discipline and punishment, or are the two inseparable?

I would welcome comments and scriptures about that I haven't researched anything on that yet but thought I'd write this down here and discuss

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Thanks for your post IMO you are right . After reading it episode from Simpsons came to my mind when Homer said "God loves you he will kill you " when he was predicting apocalypse .

I have to say that if blindness was punishment from God then Jesus would not be able to give back sight to that person because he would work against will of his Father. Some sickness are not direct punishment but because or Adam's siin we are not whole as all creation is .

However God can let Satan to trouble you to serve his purpose like making you less proud , moving you from bad track or to discipline . Paul was given torn in flesh and he prayed to God to take it away but God decided to not do that for some purpose . Maybe he wanted others to see that Paul was not God himself because Paul could even rise people from dead in name of Christ . ( 2 Corinthians 12:7)

We don't know all purposes , all we know that we inherit sin from Adam as whole creation and some people are born with defect because of that and as time goes we become less and less healthy as human beings .

Some verses about God disciplining people

2 Samuel
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

Hebrews 12
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

I'm reprobate myself so I would like to avoid that

Chinchilla said:

I'm reprobate myself so I would like to avoid that

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Hi Chinchilla, question, how can you, a Christian, also be "reprobate" (a reprobate is a person who is rejected by God and beyond the hope of salvation, at least as I understand the term Biblically anyway).

Thanks!

--David

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JesusYeshuaisLord said:

What if God's punishment is just an expression of His Grace? Then I thought, hmm is it Grace or Love? Though can Grace go without Love?

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Grace or love? I think grace can mean different things. Grace can mean the action of God's love in our character > how our Heavenly Father corrects us who are His children > Hebrews 12:4-11 < this correction changes us so we share with Him in His holiness and so we have "the peaceable fruit of righteousness" > this end result certainly is not a punishment.

Yet, at times God might punish us in some way, but His punishing us is included in His process of bringing us to be holy as He is holy and to have His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness". Grace is His action in us of changing us to be more and more like Jesus. So, in case there were some punishment of a child of God, it would be working for the overall benefit of the person becoming like Jesus; so it would not be a punishment which permanently disables and hurts or permanently judges against a child of God.

But, also, grace can be "favor" in how God forgives us and how God blesses us in our lives.

Well, then . . . in case God feels He needs to punish a child of His, in order to rebuke and stop that child from going the wrong way . . . this would be favoring the child, since the punishment would help the child to do better. So, in such a case, a punishment would be God's favor of the child and therefore grace.

Of course, such a punishment might take away something from the wrong child, but what is taken away might not really be what the child needs, anyway, and/or the child might not be able, anyway, to benefit from what is removed. And the person might suffer pain, in the process, but the pain is what the person's selfish nature makes him or her able to suffer > therefore, if the person becomes unselfish, then, he or she would not be able to feel the pain!! God's chastening is "painful", we do have in Hebrews 12:4-11. But I find how when I am in God's love, I can not suffer the way I can in selfish and ego stuff.

JesusYeshuaisLord said:

God is often referred to as a mother figure and a parent in the old testament.

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Hi JesusYeshuaisLord, would you mind pointing out some OT examples of God as:


Thanks!

--David

God does not "punish" nor "torture".
God being a perfect JUDGE renders perfect Judgments.

“Justice and judgment are the habitation of Thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before Thy face” (Psalm 89:14).

Isaiah 30:18....[ God Is Gracious and Just ]
Therefore the LORD longs to be gracious to you,
And therefore He waits on high to have compassion on you. For the LORD is a God of JUSTICE;
How blessed are all those who long for Him.

Deuteronomy 32:4...The Song of Moses-God: all His ways are JUST
3 “For I proclaim the name of the LORD;
Ascribe greatness to our God!
4 “The Rock!
His work is perfect,
For all His ways are JUST;
A God of faithfulness and without injustice,
Righteous and upright is He.

Micah 6 (NASB)...What God Requires of Man
8 He has told you, O man, what is GOOD;
And what does the LORD require of you...But...
to do JUSTICE,
to LOVE kindness, And
to WALK humbly with your God?

His JUDGMENTS of all SPIRITS are fair and righteous.

Hebrews 9:27 (NASB)
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die (mortal Body/Soul combo) once
and after this comes judgment,(of all immortal SPIRITS)

BELIEVER'S spiritual POSITION in Christ is NOT JUDGED.

God lovingly disciplines His saved children.

Proverbs 3:12
because the Lord disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in.

Hebrews 12:6
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”


For unbelievers, He sentences their spirits to the spiritual realm of the "lake of fire".

Revelation 20:15
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.