Heaven and earth literal witnesses?

claninja

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When God calls the heavens and earth to witness against Israel, is it the literal heavens and earth? Or is it another term for the Covenant?

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse.

Deuteronomy 31:26-28 “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you. For I know how rebellious and stubborn you are. Behold, even today while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the LORD. How much more after my death! Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears and call heaven and earth to witness against them.

Deuteronomy 31:21, 32:1 And when many evils and troubles have come upon them, this song shall confront them as a witness: “Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak, and let the earth hear the words of my mouth.
 
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joshua 1 9

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JIMINZ

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When God calls the heavens and earth to witness against Israel, is it the literal heavens and earth? Or is it another term for the Covenant?

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse.

Deuteronomy 31:26-28 “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you. For I know how rebellious and stubborn you are. Behold, even today while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the LORD. How much more after my death! Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears and call heaven and earth to witness against them.

Deuteronomy 31:21, 32:1 And when many evils and troubles have come upon them, this song shall confront them as a witness: “Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak, and let the earth hear the words of my mouth.

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I would say the land wittiness's literally.

Lev. 18:27,28
27) (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled)
28) That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.

It says the same thing in a number of places, and it sounds as though it is very literal.
 
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Inkfingers

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I suspect that it is referencing the same matter that Matthew 5:34-35 is referring to when it says "But I tell you not to swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is His footstool".
 
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claninja

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I would say the land wittiness's literally.

Lev. 18:27,28
27) (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled)
28) That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.

It says the same thing in a number of places, and it sounds as though it is very literal.
So is it the land itself? Or the rules of the covenant that cause the land to spue them out?
 
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claninja

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I suspect that it is referencing the same matter that Matthew 5:34-35 is referring to when it says "But I tell you not to swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is His footstool".
So Gods throne and footstool witness against Israel?
 
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mkgal1

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It may be more accurate to say, "The Kingdom of God witnesses against Israel".

Quoting N.T. Wright:

The whole point of heaven and earth in Jewish thought is that they are meant to meet and merge. And the point of the gospel story as Luke has told it in his first volume is that Jesus had come to bring the life of heaven and earth together. That is the meaning of the ‘kingdom of God’. - When the Spirit Comes
 
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JIMINZ

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So is it the land itself? Or the rules of the covenant that cause the land to spue them out?

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Personally, I would say, it was the Land itself, because the people who were before the Israelite's were not under any Covenant with God.

God said

Lev. 18:27,28
27) (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled)
28) That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
 
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claninja

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Personally, I would say, it was the Land itself, because the people who were before the Israelite's were not under any Covenant with God.

God said

Lev. 18:27,28
27) (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled)
28) That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
That’s true. That’s a good observation. How does this relate to the heavens of the heaven and earth witness against you?
 
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JIMINZ

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That’s true. That’s a good observation. How does this relate to the heavens of the heaven and earth witness against you?

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There isn't any Scripture which I am able to think of which says anything like this one did, but the (Earth) = (Land) as expressed in these verses.

The Land spewing them out is a wittiness, I don't take it to mean the entire Globe of the Earth do you?
 
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claninja

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There isn't any Scripture which I am able to think of which says anything like this one did, but the (Earth) = (Land) as expressed in these verses.

The Land spewing them out is a wittiness, I don't take it to mean the entire Globe of the Earth do you?
No, I agree, it was localized to just the promiseland.

However, reading through Leviticus 18, it seems that the ‘spuing from the land’ is more of a punishment for being unclean than the land being a witness.

Witnesses typically don’t punish. They only observe what has happened and testify about what they have seen.
 
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JIMINZ

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No, I agree, it was localized to just the promiseland.

However, reading through Leviticus 18, it seems that the ‘spuing from the land’ is more of a punishment for being unclean than the land being a witness.

Witnesses typically don’t punish. They only observe what has happened and testify about what they have seen.

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What else would it witness against, except the wrongdoing of the people who live on the land, as those before the Jews and then the Jews themselves.

How about the United States, and the Amount of Abortions, and the prevalence of Homosexuality, don't you think were headed for a spewing of our own in the future?

The spewing is in itself the wittiness, it is the testifying.
 
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claninja

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What else would it witness against, except the wrongdoing of the people who live on the land, as those before the Jews and then the Jews themselves.

How about the United States, and the Amount of Abortions, and the prevalence of Homosexuality, don't you think were headed for a spewing of our own in the future?

The spewing is in itself the wittiness, it is the testifying.

do witnesses punish?
 
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mkgal1

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because the people who were before the Israelite's were not under any Covenant with God.
This is all a bit of a new study for me, so forgive me if I'm off here.

The way I'm seeing it, there WAS an earlier covenant between Melchizedek and Abraham....and that covenant seems to be the eternal thread running through humanity:


“Melchizedek … blessed him and said, ‘Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; and blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand!’” (vv. 18–20).

- Genesis 14:17–20
The priesthood of Israel as an office limited to Aaron and the tribe of Levi came to an end with the advent of Christ and His opening of it to all of God’s people (1 Peter 2:9–10). Yet that does not mean a unique priestly office for a select, anointed individual passed away entirely. There remains the priesthood in the order of Melchizedek, where Jesus sits forever as our Great High Priest (Heb. 7).~Ligonier Ministries

8e572a8a29ecf0b96232d21aa984419c.jpg


 
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JIMINZ

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do witnesses punish?

. I would look at any punishment as that which would be on top of the spewing, the Land has been given the authority to rid itself of evildoers by God otherwise the spewing would not happen at all.

Therefore the Land is more than just a wittiness, it is the party being offended against.

As a microcosm, look at Africa, the Middle east, South America, millions of people in flux, people migrating to Europe, and the U.S.A.....WHY?

Is the land spewing them out for the same sort of reasons, does all of the spewing only pertain to the Holy Land and the People of that Land?

How broad of a picture can we look at, or should it be a very narrow view?
 
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mkgal1

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I need a big-picture sort of vantage point. This article makes sense to me, as far as Deuteronomy goes:

I have argued elsewhere that the book of Genesis demands to be read in this way: the promises to Abraham echo the commands to Adam, and the whole argument of the book, the whole point of the narrative, is that God has called Abraham and his family to undo the sin of Adam, even though Abraham and his family are themselves part of the problem as well as the bearers of the solution.[1] That, indeed, is close to the heart of Paul’s own fresh reading of Genesis, as we shall see. Deuteronomy, and particularly its long exposition of the covenant in chapters 27—30, brings together creation and covenant in terms of the Land: if Israel obeys the voice of YHWH, the created order within the promised land will be abundantly fruitful, but if Israel disobeys, the Land itself will turn against them, and ultimately drive them out into exile, whence they will only return if they turn back to YHWH with all their heart and soul. Isaiah 40—55 brings together creation and covenant from one angle after another, invoking YHWH in chapter 40 as the sovereign creator in whom Israel can have complete trust and confidence, celebrating in chapter 55 the way in which his Word has the same effect, in terms of restoring Israel, as the rain and the snow which make the earth fruitful. ~Creation and Covenant
 
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claninja

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Therefore the Land is more than just a wittiness, it is the party being offended against.

I would say God is ultimately being offended by the wicked works of men, more so than the land.

As a microcosm, look at Africa, the Middle east, South America, millions of people in flux, people migrating to Europe, and the U.S.A.....WHY?

Poverty, violence, and persecution would be my best guess.

Is the land spewing them out for the same sort of reasons, does all of the spewing only pertain to the Holy Land and the People of that Land?

I don’t necessarily think the land is spewing more than they are fleeing from violence, persecution, and poverty.

How broad of a picture can we look at, or should it be a very narrow view?

Probably the best context is:

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,
Deuteronomy 30:19 - Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 30:19 - English Standard Version

Moses calls heaven and earth to witness that he has set before israel life and death.

Heaven and earth are the witnesses that Moses has given israel the law, with all its blessings and curses, life and death.
 
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mkgal1

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So...IOW:

"land" = Creation
"heaven" = All things pertaining to God and His Kingdom

Still quoting N.T. Wright:

What I mean by ‘creation and covenant’ will become clear if we consider a couple of Psalms where the two are joined together. What I intend by using that pair of evocative terms as an initial way in to Paul will then become clear if we consider three central passages in which the same themes play the same kind of roles. This will open the way to a more detailed consideration of what, I shall argue, must be regarded as part of the fundamental structure of his thought, and how it relates to the other themes which will occupy us in subsequent chapters.​

The first Psalm is no. 19, a spectacular poem made more so by Joseph Haydn: ‘The heavens are telling the glory of God’. But Haydn’s setting, which never got beyond verse 1, can actually distract us from what the writer is doing. The psalm isn’t just a poem about the glory of creation. It divides into two more or less equal halves (vv. 1–6 and 7–14), and it is the juxtaposition of these which opens the door to the view of creation and covenant which, I shall suggest, remains at the heart of Judaism and, as I shall argue, was always central for Paul.

The first six verses are a paean of praise to God for his creation, celebrating the fact that creation itself praises God and declares his glory without speech or language but yet with great power and force. ‘Their sound has gone out into all the world, and their words to the ends of the earth.’ Within this, the psalmist celebrates the power and strength of the sun. ‘Nothing is hidden,’ he declares, ‘from its searching heat.’ Then, without warning, he switches to the second half of the poem, which is a similar paean of praise for Torah, the Law of YHWH. Torah does in human life what the sun does within creation: it brings the light, power and searching, probing heat of YHWH’s presence into the depths of the human heart. Torah is, of course, the covenant charter of Israel, the Law given to bind Israel to YHWH, to establish the nation as his people. With Torah as its guide, Israel is the unique, chosen people of the one creator God.​


First, the covenant is there to solve the problems within creation. God called Abraham to solve the problem of evil, the problem of Adam, the problem of the world. (That, incidentally, is why accounts of the problem of evil which fail to incorporate covenant theology are doomed before they start; but that is another story.) Israel’s calling is to hold fast by the covenant. Through Israel, God will address and solve the problems of the world, bringing justice and salvation to the ends of the earth – though quite how this will happen remains, even in Isaiah, more than a little mysterious.

But, second, creation is invoked to solve the problems within the covenant. When Israel is in trouble, and the covenant promises themselves seem to have come crashing to the ground, the people cry to the covenant God precisely as the creator. Israel goes back to Genesis 1, and to the story of the Exodus, in order to pray and trust that YHWH will do again what, as creator, he has the power and the right to do, and what as the covenant God he has the responsibility to do, namely, to establish justice in the world and, more especially, to vindicate his people when they cry to him for help. In both cases, we should note carefully, it is assumed that something has gone badly wrong. Something is deeply amiss with creation, and within that with humankind itself, something to which the covenant with Israel is the answer. Something is deeply amiss with the covenant, whether Israel’s sins on the one hand or Gentile oppression on the other, or perhaps both – and to this the answer is a re-invoking of creation, or rather of God as creator. ~ Creation and Covenant
 
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