LDS Race and the LDS Priesthood

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Christ has made baptism the sign of entrance to His spiritual kingdom, which is to acknowledge to the world that we are now under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and they now all work in our behalf. It is symbolically a type of "burial", representing our death to the old man of sin, and spiritual rebirth through Jesus Christ. God wants to give us a life to live here and now, and baptism should only be for the living, not the dead. The gospel teaches freedom of choice and baptism of the dead runs entirely contrary to that. Salvation in Christ is a personal choice that cannot be made for someone else.
In 1 Corinthians 15:29, Paul is referring to a pagan practice of baptizing for the dead. In a sense he was saying, "Even pagans and heretics fasten their faith on the hope of a resurrection, and if they cherish that hope, how much more should we." That it is not possible for Christians to be baptized vicariously on behalf of deceased relatives and friends is apparent from the many Scriptures which declare that a man must personally believe in Christ and confess his sins in order to profit by baptism and be saved (Acts 2:38; 8:36, 37; cf. Ezekiel 18:20-24; John 3:16; 1 John 1:9). Even the most righteous of men can "deliver but their own souls" (Ezekiel 14:14, 16; cf. Psalm 49:7). Death marks the close of human probation (see Psalm 49:7-9; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10; Isaiah 38:18, 19; Luke 16:26; Hebrews 9:27, 28).
Baptism for the dead is not contrary to freedom of choice. The right to accept or reject that ordinance is still there. Although is is called baptism for the dead it is really baptism for the living. As Jesus explained:
(New Testament | Matthew 22:31 - 33)

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.
You said: "In a sense he was saying, "Even pagans and heretics fasten their faith on the hope of a resurrection, and if they cherish that hope, how much more should we."
No Paul was not saying anything about baptism being a pagan ritual. That is a made up notion. And while it is true that:
(Old Testament | Psalms 49:7)

7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Everyone is responsible to work out their own salvation. That being said we can make it possible for those who are worthy to have the ordinances performed by proxy that are necessary for them to have in order for them to be saved. There are many people that were not able to receive those ordinances while they were alive. That is why God made it possible for them to receive them by proxy. I know that God is just, merciful and fair and this is why He did this.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Baptism for the dead is not contrary to freedom of choice. The right to accept or reject that ordinance is still there. Although is is called baptism for the dead it is really baptism for the living. As Jesus explained:
(New Testament | Matthew 22:31 - 33)

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.
You said: "In a sense he was saying, "Even pagans and heretics fasten their faith on the hope of a resurrection, and if they cherish that hope, how much more should we."
No Paul was not saying anything about baptism being a pagan ritual. That is a made up notion. And while it is true that:
(Old Testament | Psalms 49:7)

7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Everyone is responsible to work out their own salvation. That being said we can make it possible for them to have the ordinances that are necessary for their salvation. There are many people that were not able to receive those ordinances while they were alive. That is why God made it possible for them to receive them by proxy. I know that God is just, merciful and fair and this is why He did this.


God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,565
13,723
✟429,902.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
There is no evidence in any scripture or liturgy or anything of salvation after death, but for Christ's harrowing of Hell in which those who died before the coming of Christ were freed. The scriptures teach otherwise in several places:

Luke 16:19-31 (Lazarus and the rich man) has Abraham say in reply to the pleas of the rich man in Hades "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us." (NB: Not "Oh, okay, sure, come on out...")

We have also Christ's own words in Matthew 25:41 "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (emphasis mine).

In Revelation 20:10 "And the Devil who deceived them was thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (emphasis again mine)

And in the liturgy of St. Basil (the core of which dates to the 4th century), the priest prays: "He rose from the dead on the third day; He ascended into the heavens, and sat at Your right hand, o Father; He has appointed a day for recompense, on which He will appear to judge the world in righteousness and give each one according to his deeds." (emphasis added) We respond to this by pleading that the judgment be "According to your mercy, O Lord, and not according to our sins."

What sense would any of this make if in fact we could simply choose after having died to accept that which we would not accept in life? In fact, the error of that kind of thinking is also exposed in the story of Lazarus and the rich man mentioned earlier, which continues:

“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’"

The bottom line is that salvation is not the intellectual acceptance of some piece(s) of information -- as in the Mormon scheme which apparently leaves everything up to the will of those who have already died to affect their own salvation -- but the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord, by which the power of sin and death is broken. That is what has freed our race from eternal torment in Hell, and we must not deign to live according to it in the hopes that somehow, despite all the evidence to the contrary, God means something other than "eternal" when He warns of the punishment of the wicked after death.

You can't do whatever you want in life and then just decide afterwards that you're done and now you'll take things seriously. Do you think God is stupid? Like He'll just say "Oh, okay...I mean, I wanted you to follow Me in life, but I guess you didn't want to, but now that you see the reward for that, you've decided to do what I asked of you. And here I thought I gave you life so that you could be serious with it. Silly me."?

Don't treat God like an idiot who doesn't know what He's doing. He does know, and those who follow Him know. Mormonism, notably, does not know, or else it wouldn't advance such a horribly anti-God doctrine.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
And as Jesus explained Abraham, Jacob and Isaac are still living as well as all those who have died on the earth.

Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac are dead and buried and will not live again until the resurrection. Even Martha
understood that.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Lazarus lived again only because
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Christians sleep until we are awakened by Jesus at the resurrection.
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

It is useless to baptize for the dead.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: drstevej
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
There is no evidence in any scripture or liturgy or anything of salvation after death, but for Christ's harrowing of Hell in which those who died before the coming of Christ were freed. The scriptures teach otherwise in several places:

Luke 16:19-31 (Lazarus and the rich man) has Abraham say in reply to the pleas of the rich man in Hades "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us." (NB: Not "Oh, okay, sure, come on out...")

We have also Christ's own words in Matthew 25:41 "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (emphasis mine).

In Revelation 20:10 "And the Devil who deceived them was thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (emphasis again mine)

And in the liturgy of St. Basil (the core of which dates to the 4th century), the priest prays: "He rose from the dead on the third day; He ascended into the heavens, and sat at Your right hand, o Father; He has appointed a day for recompense, on which He will appear to judge the world in righteousness and give each one according to his deeds." (emphasis added) We respond to this by pleading that the judgment be "According to your mercy, O Lord, and not according to our sins."

What sense would any of this make if in fact we could simply choose after having died to accept that which we would not accept in life? In fact, the error of that kind of thinking is also exposed in the story of Lazarus and the rich man mentioned earlier, which continues:

“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’"

The bottom line is that salvation is not the intellectual acceptance of some piece(s) of information -- as in the Mormon scheme which apparently leaves everything up to the will of those who have already died to affect their own salvation -- but the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord, by which the power of sin and death is broken. That is what has freed our race from eternal torment in Hell, and we must not deign to live according to it in the hopes that somehow, despite all the evidence to the contrary, God means something other than "eternal" when He warns of the punishment of the wicked after death.

You can't do whatever you want in life and then just decide afterwards that you're done and now you'll take things seriously. Do you think God is stupid? Like He'll just say "Oh, okay...I mean, I wanted you to follow Me in life, but I guess you didn't want to, but now that you see the reward for that, you've decided to do what I asked of you. And here I thought I gave you life so that you could be serious with it. Silly me."?

Don't treat God like an idiot who doesn't know what He's doing. He does know, and those who follow Him know. Mormonism, notably, does not know, or else it wouldn't advance such a horribly anti-God doctrine.
There are people who lived a good life and repented of their sins but were not baptized and didn't have that opportunity when they were alive. Would a fair God banish them to Hell for eternity? What about Lazarus, was he baptized? What about the thief that was on the cross, was he baptized? Were the Samaritans baptized? There are many who will need this saving ordinance done for them. I agree with you that a person can't do whatever you want in life and then just decide afterwards that you're done and now you'll take things seriously.
(New Testament | Romans 9:13 - 33)

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac are dead and buried and will not live again until the resurrection. Even Martha
understood that.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Lazarus lived again only because
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Christians sleep until we are awakened by Jesus at the resurrection.
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

It is useless to baptize for the dead.
Yes the body does sleep after death, but not the spirit:
(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:7)

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Yes the body does sleep after death, but not the spirit:
(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:7)

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Yes---the breath of life goes back to God. it is His breath that brought a pile of dust to life--and that same breath that brought life to every other living creature.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen_6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Gen_7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
Gen_7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Job_33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Yes---the breath of life goes back to God. it is His breath that brought a pile of dust to life--and that same breath that brought life to every other living creature.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen_6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Gen_7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
Gen_7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Job_33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
So you believe that the breath of life is alive itself? Still it does not square with what Jesus said about Lazarus and the rich man or about the thief on the cross. Nor does it agree with what Jesus said about God being the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac. Sometimes words have two or more meanings. The SDA and Jehovah's Witnesses seem much the same to me.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
So you believe that the breath of life is alive itself? Still it does not square with what Jesus said about Lazarus and the rich man or about the thief on the cross. Nor does it agree with what Jesus said about God being the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac. Sometimes words have two or more meanings. The SDA and Jehovah's Witnesses seem much the same to me.

Who cares what I think-----What does the bible say? He breathed life into them. His breath gives life. And it goes with He is the God of the living, not of the dead, and Lazarus and the rich man was a parable stating there is no communication between the living and the dead-- ---and that:
"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
SDA and JW may seem like the same to you---they do not seem that way to us, nor do they regard us in the same way----vast differences so it is obvious you do not know what either believe.
Yes, esp. in Hebrew, words can have more than one meaning. And the whole thing needs to be read in order to read the proper context, not in order for it to agree with JS.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Who cares what I think-----What does the bible say? He breathed life into them. His breath gives life. And it goes with He is the God of the living, not of the dead, and Lazarus and the rich man was a parable stating there is no communication between the living and the dead-- ---and that:
"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
SDA and JW may seem like the same to you---they do not seem that way to us, nor do they regard us in the same way----vast differences so it is obvious you do not know what either believe.
Yes, esp. in Hebrew, words can have more than one meaning. And the whole thing needs to be read in order to read the proper context, not in order for it to agree with JS.
I have noticed some similarities between the two churches and I know there are differences as you say. I admire the high moral standards that you believe in and practice, and your humanitarian efforts.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
I have noticed some similarities between the two churches and I know there are differences as you say. I admire the high moral standards that you believe in and practice, and your humanitarian efforts.

There are similarities between SDA and Mormons, Catholics, Baptists. But similarities is not what you said---

The SDA and Jehovah's Witnesses seem much the same to me.[/QUOTE]
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,529
6,408
Midwest
✟80,125.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
I know why baptism for the dead in necessary, it is because God makes it possible for all of His children to return to Him. God is just, merciful and fair.

Your god demands that everyone earn/merit their blessings; that isn't merciful. He is partial to some giving advantages to the elite.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Your god demands that everyone earn/merit their blessings; that isn't merciful. He is partial to some giving advantages to the elite.
So who does God show mercy to?:
(Old Testament | Exodus 20:6)

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
(New Testament | John 14:15)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

God loves those who love Him.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,529
6,408
Midwest
✟80,125.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Everyone is responsible to work out their own salvation. That being said we can make it possible for those who are worthy to have the ordinances performed by proxy that are necessary for them to have in order for them to be saved.

Unless a person has been saved, he has no salvation to work out. Ordinances don't save. We are saved by God's grace through the faith He gives.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
"Much the same" is equivalent to being "similar". Neither believe in the spirit world, neither believe in going to war to kill. "The majority of primary teachings are the same as held to by the Watchtower"
From: Religions similar to Jehovah's Witnesses - Seventh-Day Adventists


The Mormons and the JW's seem much the same to me.

From the same site:
The teachings and history of the Mormons and Witnesses are remarkably similar.

Religions similar to Jehovah's Witnesses - Mormons
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,529
6,408
Midwest
✟80,125.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
There are people who lived a good life and repented of their sins but were not baptized and didn't have that opportunity when they were alive. Would a fair God banish them to Hell for eternity? What about Lazarus, was he baptized? What about the thief that was on the cross, was he baptized? Were the Samaritans baptized? There are many who will need this saving ordinance done for them. I agree with you that a person can't do whatever you want in life and then just decide afterwards that you're done and now you'll take things seriously.

No one can do good apart from Christ. Without the Holy Spirit no one has been set free from the dominion of sin. Those who are set free follow Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,529
6,408
Midwest
✟80,125.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
So who does God show mercy to?:
(Old Testament | Exodus 20:6)

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
(New Testament | John 14:15)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

God loves those who love Him.

Romans 9
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,565
13,723
✟429,902.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
There are people who lived a good life and repented of their sins but were not baptized and didn't have that opportunity when they were alive. Would a fair God banish them to Hell for eternity? What about Lazarus, was he baptized? What about the thief that was on the cross, was he baptized?

What on earth are you talking about? It is your religion -- not mine -- that treats baptism as such an absolute necessity for salvation that such people would be condemned for not having had it done. In fact, I'm fairly certain (though I cannot cite it now, because I don't remember exactly where it occurred) that I have argued against such an absolutist stance with a Mormon on this website before by using the right-hand thief as my example.

Baptism is of course necessary for entrance into the Church, but whatever is accepted that is not that for the salvation of those who are saved is God's prerogative to accept, as He accepted the good confession of the thief despite both the man's lack of baptism and also his lack of a suitable life of good works that would show forth his faith, as we might expect from someone who had actually lived as a Christian. What're you gonna do -- tell God that He cannot do that? Of course not. I don't think either a Christian or a Mormon would argue that way. But the point there is what is normative (baptism of living people who are/will be raised in the Church), not to provide some kind of rationale for that which is and has always been rejected (baptism of dead people).

There are many who will need this saving ordinance done for them.

No. You cannot prove that this is the means by which that is accomplished. Again, what Mormons do is most closely likened to the early heretics like the Marcionites who were never accepted in Christianity in any measure. This was settled in the 140s, you did not 'reestablish' anything but that which was always rejected to begin with.

I agree with you that a person can't do whatever you want in life and then just decide afterwards that you're done and now you'll take things seriously.

Well then in that case you shouldn't be baptizing the dead.

(New Testament | Romans 9:13 - 33)

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

This has what to do with your practice?
 
Upvote 0