I'm Being Honest From the Start

cvanwey said:

I was born and raised Christian. Believed wholeheartedly for decades.... Believed all asserted claims from the many I admire. Just recently, I decided to finally read the Bible for myself. Found many topics and claims which do not appear to jive with reality. I've asked many questions, to many people. They accuse me of being a troll, dishonest, avoid my questions, some seem to present intellectual dishonesty, some provide ad hominem attacks, some commit many logical fallacies in their defense, some assert their case and have no interest in any of my observations.... This is for starters.... I'm not saying all devout believers do this, however. I'm just saying, this appears to be a good half of my responses.

I'm asking some very direct questions, which I feel place the Bible to the test. I feel I must explore these concerns of mine, in a completely intellectually honest way. My delivery may seem somewhat harsh. However, I possess no ill will. It is undeniable that personal beliefs, in practically anything, can stir much emotion.

Anywho, I would love to present many questions to Christians. However, I want to be honest and state, that I am now very skeptical to Christianity, after reading many parts which do not appear to jive with reason and logic.

I will present a very small tickler question here, and go from there??? It seems somewhat morbid. However, I'm placing the logic and claims of the Bible to the test, to assure whether I can find truth within it, rather that simply using my own circular logic.

So here it goes....

Does a still born go to heaven or hell?

TY in advance!!!!

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Yes a still born would go to heaven.

And welcome to CF!

Welcome !

This is not the forum for discussion, you should post your question in a discussion forum here at CF to keep it alive so to speak. Meanwhile what you are speaking of points to/ alludes to the notion of "the age of accountability". That is to say it is not directly dealt with in scripture but it is alluded to. Perhaps this article can bring some clarity to you ( in particular the portion from 2 Samuel) here is the link: Is there an age of accountability in the Bible? What happens to babies that die?

edit: Oops, I see it already got moved LOL !

i would say the soul within this body never left heaven ....

Welcome to CF and without one doubt yes. Will follow this to other thread.

cvanwey said:

I was born and raised Christian. Believed wholeheartedly for decades.... Believed all asserted claims from the many I admire. Just recently, I decided to finally read the Bible for myself. Found many topics and claims which do not appear to jive with reality. I've asked many questions, to many people. They accuse me of being a troll, dishonest, avoid my questions, some seem to present intellectual dishonesty, some provide ad hominem attacks, some commit many logical fallacies in their defense, some assert their case and have no interest in any of my observations.... This is for starters.... I'm not saying all devout believers do this, however. I'm just saying, this appears to be a good half of my responses.

I'm asking some very direct questions, which I feel place the Bible to the test. I feel I must explore these concerns of mine, in a completely intellectually honest way. My delivery may seem somewhat harsh. However, I possess no ill will. It is undeniable that personal beliefs, in practically anything, can stir much emotion.

Anywho, I would love to present many questions to Christians. However, I want to be honest and state, that I am now very skeptical to Christianity, after reading many parts which do not appear to jive with reason and logic.

I will present a very small tickler question here, and go from there??? It seems somewhat morbid. However, I'm placing the logic and claims of the Bible to the test, to assure whether I can find truth within it, rather that simply using my own circular logic.

So here it goes....

Does a still born go to heaven or hell?

TY in advance!!!!

Click to expand...

I don't know for sure since it's not as if the Bible was written to answer every and all metaphysical questions any one person could possibly have at every turn of life.

So, while a number of your questions may very well be interesting to ponder, or even very cogent, to nevertheless expect that Christians can, by any logical necessity, field all of your questions and/or satiate all of your obvious concerns is to go beyond not only the nature of the Christian faith itself as it actually is and as it can be philosophically considered, it is also to go beyond applicable logic to expect this to be the case.

Just something to think about, cvanwey, as you find various questions popping up in your mind. And as to your initial question: I suppose that IF an unborn baby already had a soul implanted within its tiny, vulnerable body, yet that little body failed to survive up and through the birthing process, THEN that little he or she would go straight back to the Bosom of the Lord Himself who gave the soul. Why would we even be tempted to think that it wouldn't? Because of some faulty theological premise deduced by some early, post-apostolic Church Father or theologian?

And welcome to CF!

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

cvanwey said:

I was born and raised Christian. Believed wholeheartedly for decades.... Believed all asserted claims from the many I admire. Just recently, I decided to finally read the Bible for myself. Found many topics and claims which do not appear to jive with reality. I've asked many questions, to many people. They accuse me of being a troll, dishonest, avoid my questions, some seem to present intellectual dishonesty, some provide ad hominem attacks, some commit many logical fallacies in their defense, some assert their case and have no interest in any of my observations.... This is for starters.... I'm not saying all devout believers do this, however. I'm just saying, this appears to be a good half of my responses.

I'm asking some very direct questions, which I feel place the Bible to the test. I feel I must explore these concerns of mine, in a completely intellectually honest way. My delivery may seem somewhat harsh. However, I possess no ill will. It is undeniable that personal beliefs, in practically anything, can stir much emotion.

Anywho, I would love to present many questions to Christians. However, I want to be honest and state, that I am now very skeptical to Christianity, after reading many parts which do not appear to jive with reason and logic.

I will present a very small tickler question here, and go from there??? It seems somewhat morbid. However, I'm placing the logic and claims of the Bible to the test, to assure whether I can find truth within it, rather that simply using my own circular logic.

So here it goes....

Does a still born go to heaven or hell?

TY in advance!!!!

Click to expand...

Yes according to Bible .

Your problem is morality i see , thing is without God every moral judgement you make is borrowed from Christianity , you don't need to test Bible God alredy said you have enought evidence and he knows better than you trust me .

Every time you say something is good or bad you invoke absolute person on which you base these things into goodness or badness , you can't say something is good or bad assuming there is no God because your good or bad is not only opinion but is actually nonsense , because if there is no God you are just bunch of stardus with random or not random reactions in your brain caused by chemical reactions which cause electric impulse into your brain and body to act . You can have no free will because after big bang atoms were lead by forces like gravity and density or you have no free will because everything was random so your thougs and reactions are random too.

Both ways you are screwed without God , you can't even make statement that you exist without invoking God , because if you would be just animal learning of past experience to predict future reactions you would never assume that you will die one day , because everything and everybody else is dying but you , you would think like you are God yourself because your brain would assume you are immortal compared to these things around you.

We know this is not the case and you clearly know yourself that you are inside of flesh body which is self reproducing , after like 10 years all of your cells are replaced with new ones but you did not die yet right ? You know you are alive , you know you are inside of that body and not just body , you are soul.

If you accept Christ you have eternal life , gospel of salvation is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Ephesians 2:8-9 , Ephesians 1:13-14 , 1 John 2:2

You can check that prophecy Scriptures in Corinthians found here to save yourself time , check who Christ was . Some are 700-2000 years old before Christ .

AccordingtotheScriptures.org :: 353 Prophecies Fulfilled in Jesus Christ

I think John Calvin held that unborn or young children died as elect. I had a mentor, however, that did not know a Scriptural basis for that statement. I can't recall the reference now but I remember reading in the Bible an "oh, this could be proof they go to heaven" moment.

I have a severely disabled sister and frankly I believe she sees spiritual things that we don't see. I was grieved about the idea of her not going to heaven, but it gives me a fire for medical research related to her syndrome. Ultimately I think she probably believes in Christ.

If you're looking for hard answers to hard questions check Calvinism out. Depending on which strain you look into it's the most draconian worldview I personally know-- but a blessing for the elect.

Edit: Also if I remember Augustinian theology will help.

cvanwey said:

Four possible justifications for morality exist... Which all either further prove subjectivity (by using A), B), and D), (or) circular reasoning, in option C)...


A) Opinion (the theist will assert we inherently 'know' right from wrong, because it was given to us by god.) By definition, this is the most subjective demonstration and offers absolutely no grounds for objectivity. Opinions differ culturally, geographically, spiritually, and sometimes merely by gender.


B) Consensus (many opinions, which agree, is still subjective. Slavery was considered acceptable by the majority a couple hundred years ago, but is more-so frowned upon today). Any counter argument for civil law (human invented law) versus moral law (god's law), still contradicts the claim presented by theists; and begs the question until the specific god is demonstrated to exist.


C) God (using claimed objective morality to prove god, and vise versa, is circular and does nothing to demonstrate the existence of a higher authority). All the theist is required to do is prove the claimed moral prescription was actually presented by a god, and the discussion can then start to begin coherently.


D) Consequentialism or cooperation. This position also does not claim objectivity, as morals are not objective by definition. Furthermore, it is the only position, of the four, to provide demonstrable evidence and justification for how morals arise. If a theist uses position D) to justify morality, the believer is contradicting theistic claimed morals, as they must then admit to taking a world view approach to moral values. The theist will then try their best not to use this approach. Thus, they will only use the first three (A), B), and C); which either all further prove subjectivity (in A) and B) or circular reasoning in option C).


Don't just assert your position of objective morals, prove it. Provide one moral absolute, and prove it is objective. Also try doing so effectively, logically, and coherently, without resorting to option D) as your premise for evidence and proof.


By default, all text is written by humans (New Testament, Qur'an, etc...). The burden of proof is applied to the theist, whom states this text was inspired by a higher power. Theists, please remember this if using position C) to support the moral argument, and is proven viciously circular.


Christians specifically might attempt to cop out, by asking “what standard of evidence is acceptable for the skeptic.” This response becomes quite simple and fairly self-explanatory... The theist would demand or require the very same standard of evidence the skeptic demands for any other claim of truth, in any subject, which includes all the opposing religious claims the Christian does not currently accept from other claimers of other beliefs. Furthermore, the Christian would also not accept the opposing position, especially if the opposing side used the following tactics Christians tend to use for their own justifications (i.e.) claimed faith, circular logic, using the fear of the unknown, blank assertions, belief preservation, conformation bias, appeals to religious authority, appeals to emotion, special pleading, a need for cognitive closure, repetition, and supporting many other logical fallacies. So why then are these tactics the most common ones used to justify the Christian's own religious position? Without evidence, this is all that is left.

In conclusion, Which God's claimed 'objective morals' are you asserting? And, can you prove it?

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Thanks, but no thanks.

cvanwey said:

Does a still born go to heaven or hell?

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I don't believe it's automatic either way.

cvanwey said:

You might want to hash this assertion out with a professor of Hermeneutics, most specifically, in Talmudical hermeneutics - whom happen to be Orthodox Jews.

If the Bible is the Word, and the Word is the chosen method for God to spread truth. And the most scholarly of individuals, whom study the Word for decades cannot conclude an objective conclusion, from the very same passages; this may suggest that God is the author of confusion.?.?.? How might one know whom is correct, and whom is incorrect, between the Jew and the Christian??? It becomes quickly circular... Why? Because they both use the very same passage, from the very same verse, from the very same Old Testament, to justify their opposite position.

So which one is right? Assuming this is a true dichotomy???? They are both referencing the SAME standard (the Bible). Quite the predicament

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There is no predicament.

Jesus is the Word, the New and Old Testaments are just witnesses to that central doctrine, all other doctrines derive from this one. That Christ took on flesh and walked among us, that he revealed the nature of the Father(a significant word in this context), in everything that he said and did.

That his life and his death, were established as a beacon, leading us back to Himself, by the work of His Spirit and the words of those who have gone before us.

So when Jesus says "Let the little children come unto me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." I require nothing more than to become like them myself.

I have committed more sins than a stillborn baby has committed and the sins that I have committed are probably worse than any sins the baby might have committed. God is good to me every day. He is merciful with me every day. Because God is good to me we know He is good to the stillborn baby. The book of Psalms is a good book to read if you want to read about God's character. The books of Job and Romans are also good to read for that purpose. We have already been created. We cannot decide that we do not want to exist. All men should be very wise and listen to what God has to say about Jesus Christ. God is trustworthy and every day of your life He has been proving that to you. The time remaining until the rapture of the church is very short. Nobody knows the number of their days on this earth. Those who die having never believed in Jesus Christ will be in the lake of fire forever. The reason why some of the people that claim they are Christians can be so rude is that not everyone who says they are a Christian really is a Christian. A true Christian that has been saved (also known as being born again) knows that eternal life cannot be lost and they know that their good behavior cannot get them into heaven. A person can become saved by believing in Jesus Christ.

the emotional answer is yes.

the biblical answer is....we don't know but God is sovereign over salvation.

THE W said:

the emotional answer is yes.

the biblical answer is....we don't know but God is sovereign over salvation.

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Tony Coady – Trusting Emotion, Trusting Reason: A False Dichotomy | Practical Ethics

cvanwey said:

You might want to hash this assertion out with a professor of Hermeneutics, most specifically, in Talmudical hermeneutics - whom happen to be Orthodox Jews.

If the Bible is the Word, and the Word is the chosen method for God to spread truth. And the most scholarly of individuals, whom study the Word for decades cannot conclude an objective conclusion, from the very same passages; this may suggest that God is the author of confusion.?.?.? How might one know whom is correct, and whom is incorrect, between the Jew and the Christian??? It becomes quickly circular... Why? Because they both use the very same passage, from the very same verse, from the very same Old Testament, to justify their opposite position.

So which one is right? Assuming this is a true dichotomy???? They are both referencing the SAME standard (the Bible). Quite the predicament

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This doesn't even make sense.

Talmudical hemenuentics are not the Bible, so why would we as Christians, look to the Talmud that we do not even believe in for answers to the New Testament from people (Jews) who do not believe in the New Testament or that even Jesus Christ is the Messiah?

Um.......

Even thinking that an Orthodox Jew who doesn't believe in the New Testament or Christ can tell us what the New Testament is saying is odd.

I'll just leave it at that. More studying......

The Christian's assurance of God's truth is the personal indwelling Holy Spirit.

The Bible was not created as the source to convince the nonbeliever, the Bible is really to help and support the believer.

The nonbeliever need Christ to literally come to him/her, Love on him/her, listen to them, teach them, spend time with them, share with them, and help them. This is done by the Spirit of Christ (the indwelling of Christ) living in and through the believer.

The indwelling Holy Spirit can help the believer understand scripture, but the cross is foolishness to the nonbeliever.

bling said:

The Christian's assurance of God's truth is the personal indwelling Holy Spirit.

The Bible was not created as the source to convince the nonbeliever, the Bible is really to help and support the believer.

The nonbeliever need Christ to literally come to him/her, Love on him/her, listen to them, teach them, spend time with them, share with them, and help them. This is done by the Spirit of Christ (the indwelling of Christ) living in and through the believer.

The indwelling Holy Spirit can help the believer understand scripture, but the cross is foolishness to the nonbeliever.

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Amen!