Scott Pruitt is slowly strangling the EPA

tulc said:

Scott Pruitt is slowly strangling the EPA

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What the heck is wrong with Scott Pruitt?! Why isn't he quickly strangling the EPA?

Putting poison in the water? Like the democrats did in Flint Michigan?

tulc said:

Probably because only a handful of people aren't concerned about people pumping poison into the water and air. So they have to wait til everyone is distracted by other things to do that. But don't worry, pretty soon more peoples water will start tasting funny and be able to see what they're breathing.
tulc(thinks deregulating lead paint will be a harder sale but is confident President Trump will gitt'er done soon enough)

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How many people are itching to get the chance to pump poison into the water and air but are only being dissuaded from doing so because of the EPA?

I guess only a large federal bureaucracy can possibly save us from any problems we face. Perhaps there should be a federal agency for every problem under the sun. My shoes are too tight. We desperately need a federal agency with billions of dollars of budget and multiple under secretaries to keep manufacturers from selling shoes that don't fit my feet.

Good. The EPA is one of the most bloated and least necessary agencies in government.

He is Risen 72 said:

Putting poison in the water? Like the democrats did in Flint Michigan?

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Rather a view myopic view don't you think...Snyder a democrat, too?

grasping the after wind said:

How many people are itching to get the chance to pump poison into the water and air but are only being dissuaded from doing so because of the EPA?

I guess only a large federal bureaucracy can possibly save us from any problems we face. Perhaps there should be a federal agency for every problem under the sun. My shoes are too tight. We desperately need a federal agency with billions of dollars of budget and multiple under secretaries to keep manufacturers from selling shoes that don't fit my feet.

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Obviously history shows that corporations and companies are much more profit driven than environmentally concerned. It won't take to much research for the veracity of that to be proven true.

Comparing shoes that fit to clean water, clean air, etc. can be described by any number of fallacious arguments...false analogy, weak analogy, spurious similarity, etc. Interesting that I always thought that Christians would be front and center as defenders of the environment, being that all of creation has intrinsic value because God is the creator of all...and He said that it is good.

If the EPA is "bloated" or compromised or ineffective in certain ways then it would be warranted to confront with intent and consideration. Chesterton said something on the order of - Don't take the fence down until you know the reason it was put up.

Jamsie said:

Obviously history shows that corporations and companies are much more profit driven than environmentally concerned. It won't take to much research for the veracity of that to be proven true.

Comparing shoes that fit to clean water, clean air, etc. can be described by any number of fallacious arguments...false analogy, weak analogy, spurious similarity, etc. Interesting that I always thought that Christians would be front and center as defenders of the environment, being that all of creation has intrinsic value because God is the creator of all...and He said that it is good.

If the EPA is "bloated" or compromised or ineffective in certain ways then it would be warranted to confront with intent and consideration. Chesterton said something on the order of - Don't take the fence down until you know the reason it was put up.

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I do not see an equivalence between being enamored of a bureaucracy and being concerned for the environment. The EPA is a bureaucracy and as with all bureaucracies it is primarily concerned with the self interest of the bureaucrats involved. As with all bureaucracies, there is simply no motivation for the bureaucrats involved to actually solve any problems that may exist in the areas that they are tasked with overseeing. As a matter of fact there is great motivation to make sure that those problems remain problems at least in public perception if not always in reality.

As for Christians being defenders of the environment, I do not see that the environment needs defending. Christians should be good Stewards of those things they are given responsibility for . IMO Christians should not be self righteously insisting that everyone else must agree with their opinion on what are or are not proper Stewardship practice to impose upon the whole society whether the individual citizen is a Christian or not.

grasping the after wind said:

I do not see an equivalence between being enamored of a bureaucracy and being concerned for the environment. The EPA is a bureaucracy and as with all bureaucracies it is primarily concerned with the self interest of the bureaucrats involved. As with all bureaucracies, there is simply no motivation for the bureaucrats involved to actually solve any problems that may exist in the areas that they are tasked with overseeing. As a matter of fact there is great motivation to make sure that those problems remain problems at least in public perception if not always in reality.

As for Christians being defenders of the environment, I do not see that the environment needs defending. Christians should be good Stewards of those things they are given responsibility for . IMO Christians should not be self righteously insisting that everyone else must agree with their opinion on what are or are not proper Stewardship practice to impose upon the whole society whether the individual citizen is a Christian or not.

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If it is bloated and bureaucratic then it would be wise to oversee "cleaning up" and streamlining it to achieve it's appropriate mission. To suggest that it has not been effective is to simply dismiss much of what has been accomplished. And being dismissive by suggesting one is "enamored of a bureaucracy" fails to acknowledge the good that has arisen from its inception. Perhaps you were not aware of rivers catching fire, sewage poured into rivers and lakes, love canal, super fund sites, smog alerts, etc. perhaps what I am not enamored with is such things.

Seriously? Your statement that "I do not see that the environment needs defending" either arises from apathy or a disregard for the facts. What things are Christian's given responsibility for in terms of stewardship? There are Atheists that have self-righteous concerns for the environment, yet we who believe that God is the creator are merely "self-righteous". Unbelievable... is it any wonder why Christianity is held in such low esteem these days and to this specifically by Pruitt's gutting, but at least he has his $43,000. phone booth, wouldn't want to drain the swamp much!

Jamsie said:

Rather a view myopic view don't you think...Snyder a democrat, too?

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Your weak attempt to paint the REPUBLICAN governor as the bad guy is noted but as this Liberal Obama approved news source, MSNBC clearly points out in its timeline, it was the DEMOCRATIC controlled city of flint that tried to save money by poisoning the people of Flint. The REPUBLICAN governor was the savior of the people of Flint.


Flint water crisis: a timeline

He is Risen 72 said:

Your weak attempt to paint the REPUBLICAN governor as the bad guy is noted but as this Liberal Obama approved news source, MSNBC clearly points out in its timeline, it was the DEMOCRATIC controlled city of flint that tried to save money by poisoning the people of Flint. The REPUBLICAN governor was the savior of the people of Flint.

Flint water crisis: a timeline

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Gov. Snyder, the water failure in Flint is yours

Who's to blame for the Flint water crisis?

Jamsie said:

If it is bloated and bureaucratic then it would be wise to oversee "cleaning up" and streamlining it to achieve it's appropriate mission. To suggest that it has not been effective is to simply dismiss much of what has been accomplished. And being dismissive by suggesting one is "enamored of a bureaucracy" fails to acknowledge the good that has arisen from its inception. Perhaps you were not aware of rivers catching fire, sewage poured into rivers and lakes, love canal, super fund sites, smog alerts, etc. perhaps what I am not enamored with is such things.

Seriously? Your statement that "I do not see that the environment needs defending" either arises from apathy or a disregard for the facts. What things are Christian's given responsibility for in terms of stewardship? There are Atheists that have self-righteous concerns for the environment, yet we who believe that God is the creator are merely "self-righteous". Unbelievable... is it any wonder why Christianity is held in such low esteem these days and to this specifically by Pruitt's gutting, but at least he has his $43,000. phone booth, wouldn't want to drain the swamp much!

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Sorry but I do not equate being a good Christian with political partisanship or with being a follower of any particular political philosophy or cause. Only draining the partisans of one political party from the swamps does not seem to me to be much of a solution to the bureaucracy's inclination to replace God in our lives with government programs and regulatory agencies that are unaccountable to the citizens and beholden to political and financial interests rather the interests of the average citizen and certainly not aligned with the priorities of Christ. . I trust in God not in federal, state and local bureaucrats whose livelihood depends around profiting from the problems they claim to be able to solve and causing people to fear that without government intervention our lives would be a disaster and we would be unable to cope. Let us not pretend one political party is innocent and pure while the other is the font of all evil. I see no political party that I would feel proud to align with . And no, I do not see the environment as some helpless waif needing defending. The concept of defending the environment makes no sense to me . The environment is not a being that is being attacked. It is not a being at all. It is where we live and we ought to live in such a way that it remains clean and healthy for us but what exactly is defending it supposed to mean? What exactly do you suggest we defend it against? Alien invasion? . We may often find that humans tend to dirty their own nest and that causes problems for humanity and needs to be addressed but the hubris necessary to place humanity in the position not only of world destroyer but conversely as world defender is not in me. I simply do not see that we possess that much power even though we surely possess that much arrogance.

You wrote: "Sorry but I do not equate being a good Christian with political partisanship or with being a follower of any particular political philosophy or cause."

I wasn't aware that clean water and clean air was a partisan issue...Nixon didn't think so. A rather skewed perspective to consider commonsense health issues to be some ideological philosophy. Again, you clearly have turned a complete blind eye to the atrocious pollution issues we faced prior to reasonable regulations. From my foolish perspective what God has called "Good" entails some responsibility to respect such a gift.

You wrote: "Let us not pretend one political party is innocent and pure while the other is the font of all evil."

I wasn't aware that this was an issue involving political parties. Concern for the environment with laws against untethered pollution involving our air, rivers, lakes, landfills, etc. is decidedly not termed as republican or democrat but rather of human value.

You wrote: "The environment is not a being that is being attacked. It is not a being at all. It is where we live and we ought to live in such a way that it remains clean and healthy for us but what exactly is defending it supposed to mean? What exactly do you suggest we defend it against? Alien invasion? . We may often find that humans tend to dirty their own nest and that causes problems for humanity and needs to be addressed but the hubris necessary to place humanity in the position not only of world destroyer but conversely as world defender is not in me."

The illogic that pervades your thoughts is astounding but I will try and be brief. If we "ought" to live in such a way that the air and water "remain" healthy for us... and yet corporations, companies, and people blatantly pollute such that our environment is toxic then what is your solution? What we as a people through our government "defend against" is entities that would cause harmful and perhaps fatal health situations. Please explain how if entities cause "problems for humanity" and they need to be "addressed" that a remedy for that involves "hubris"? Seriously, "Alien invasion", and that has exactly what to do with a clean environment? Lastly, you really should look into the myriad examples provided by environmental history of toxic lakes, air, streams, lakes, and even the vast ocean... or one can simply dismiss it all and let apathy reign supreme. Consider Deuteronomy 11:10-15, Psalm 24:1-2, Leviticus 25:23, Psalm 89:11, etc. it would seem to me that God has given us a responsibility to His creation, and how should one treat a gift?

Jamsie said:

Gov. Snyder, the water failure in Flint is yours

Who's to blame for the Flint water crisis?

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Thank you for sharing these articles and helping to dispel the false narrative about Flint. If I may, I would like to share the following articles with you. I thought they were relevant to the discussion about Flint and I thought you would find them interesting. I have a fairly large supply of social justice and enviromental related articles that I have saved over time. I'm a veteran (meaning many years of experience) Native American social justice activist and environmentalist, so having these articles saved has come in handy for me at times. I only hope that sharing these articles with you doesn't derail tulc's thread and distract from his OP. I'm very glad he's bringing attention to this story.

From Flint to Standing Rock: The Aligned Struggles of Black and Indigenous People

Flint, Standing Rock Prove The Impact Of Environmental Issues On Communities Of Color

Speaking of the water crisis in Flint, some of my fellow activists took a trip there last year to bring water to the men, women and children who lived there. I wasn't able to make the trip, although I had originally planned to go, because four of my children fell ill and I needed to stay at home with them. I was very disappointed since I had helped buy the water and I helped plan the trip.

Shiloh Weasley said:

Thank you for sharing these articles and helping to dispel the false narrative about Flint. If I may, I would like to share the following articles with you.

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Thanks for sharing these informative links, I often read the comment section and noticed the unmitigated ignorance espoused by a certain "Two if by sea" or some such handle. I fear there will never be a color or ethnic blind America...even in "religious" circles 1 Corinthians 12:13 seems to be easily dismissed. This line sums up the present "In a future in which the Environmental Protection Agency could be led by Scott Pruitt -- a denier of climate science who has opposed efforts to reduce air and water pollution and combat climate change -- these disparities will only get worse." Blessings............

Jamsie said:

Thanks for sharing these informative links, I often read the comment section and noticed the unmitigated ignorance espoused by a certain "Two if by sea" or some such handle. I fear there will never be a color or ethnic blind America...even in "religious" circles 1 Corinthians 12:13 seems to be easily dismissed. This line sums up the present "In a future in which the Environmental Protection Agency could be led by Scott Pruitt -- a denier of climate science who has opposed efforts to reduce air and water pollution and combat climate change -- these disparities will only get worse." Blessings............

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I don't think there will ever be a color or ethnic blind in America either, especially considering its very long history of racism and discrimination against minorities. Maybe I have become too cynical after spending all these years in Native American social justice activism. I also have many years before that growing up in a very toxic environment that was one reason why I became a liberal. Concerning the environment and climate change, I've encountered some objection for my environmental efforts over the years too. I do know that Trump and his Republican cronies are no friends to the environment.

Shiloh Weasley said:

I don't think there will ever be a color or ethnic blind in America either, especially considering its very long history of racism and discrimination against minorities. Maybe I've become too cynical after spending all these years in Native American social justice activism. I also have many years before that growing up in a very toxic environment that was one reason why I became a liberal. Concerning the environment and climate change, I've encountered some objection for my environmental efforts over the years too. I do know that Trump and his cronies are no friends to the environment.

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What a terrible state to be in.

I'm half-Asian/half-White, and grew up around many different people. It went pretty well, barring a few situations I can count on one hand.

Then all of the sudden the world is full of Nazis or something. Surprised me. I wonder where they're all at. I'm deep in the heart of Texas... apparently racist central.. and it's still rare. Don't get me wrong, I've seen real Nazis (and fended off that violence personally) - but this is one of those few instances I can count on one hand. It's not everywhere. If life was as bad as that all of the time, I'm not sure I could cope well with it.

Thankfully, it's not that bad. And I'm calling shenanigans. This country isn't the racist hellhole you make it out to be.

tulc said:

Probably because only a handful of people aren't concerned about people pumping poison into the water and air. So they have to wait til everyone is distracted by other things to do that. But don't worry, pretty soon more peoples water will start tasting funny and be able to see what they're breathing.
tulc(thinks deregulating lead paint will be a harder sale but is confident President Trump will gitt'er done soon enough)

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Most of us know that the EPA hasn't done
its job in many years. If anything, it has
done more harm than good, like most
government agencies.

straykat said:

What a terrible state to be in.

I'm half-Asian/half-White, and grew up around many different people. It went pretty well, barring a few situations I can count on one hand.

Then all of the sudden the world is full of Nazis or something. Surprised me. I wonder where they're all at. I'm deep in the heart of Texas... apparently racist central.. and it's still rare. Don't get me wrong, I've seen real Nazis (and fended off that violence personally) - but this is one of those few instances I can count on one hand. It's not everywhere. If life was as bad as that all of the time, I'm not sure I could cope well with it.

Thankfully, it's not that bad. And I'm calling shenanigans. This country isn't the racist hellhole you make it out to be.

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You can call it whatever you like. I don't care since I'm speaking from my own personal experiences and my knowledge of real American history, not that Americanism facade nonsense I grew up with.

And with that said, hopefully I can continue my friendly conversation with Jamsie without any further interruptions or further derailing from the OP on the environment and Scott Pruitt strangling the EPA.