Can you “ KNOW “ that you are saved ?

John tower

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Rather missing the important thing here. Did you not notice that Paul wrote "you are saved"? He didn't write "will be saved" or "might be saved," but are saved - right now, in the present. Seems to contradict the conclusion of your OP pretty directly...



Whoa! Hold your horses! What Hebrews 11:1 actually says is that faith is the substance of our hope, or is the foundation or ground upon which our hope stands. Faith is the bedrock conviction of the truth of the things toward which our faith is exerted. It is an unshakable confidence in the truths of the Gospel and of the many promises of God that He has made to His children by which they are made "partakers of the divine nature." Faith is NOT hope, then, but the source or cause of our hope.

Have you thought about how faith is the "evidence of things not seen"? If one sees evidence of the truth of a thing, does one continue to hope that it is true? Imagine you've got hold of a treasure map to a buried treasure chest of Spanish gold doubloons. You've examined the map itself very carefully, and talked to experts about such maps, and studied the history surrounding the map thoroughly, and everything you've discovered gives you cause to believe the map is genuine and will lead you to gold if you follow it. All the evidence you have obtained gives you a strong faith in the veracity of the map. So, your hopes soaring that you will soon be a millionaire, you grab a shovel and head off to dig up the treasure chest.

Now, you haven't actually seen the chest itself. You haven't even been to where it is supposed to be buried. But all the information, all the evidence, you have gathered gives you good cause to believe that your hopes of finding the treasure are totally justified. You have deep faith in the map and this gives rise to a hope that prompts you to dig. In the same way, our faith in God and His truth prompts in us a hope, an expectation, that we will see that for which we hope. In fact, our faith in God and His promises ought to be so certain, so confident, that our hope is not "maybe" or "possibly," but "certainly" or "absolutely." This is what the writer of Hebrews is actually saying, not that faith is hope.



The believer's hope rests on knowledge: the knowledge of the promises of God to His children. So, hope, then, is inextricably linked with knowing, though hope and knowledge are not synonymous.



Do you not see the relationship between knowledge and faith here? Being persuaded of something is not the same as hoping for something. If I am persuaded that my father is, in fact, my father, I don't go about hoping that he is; if I'm persuaded that the sun will rise tomorrow, I don't go along hoping that it will; if I am persuaded that 2+2=4, I don't find myself hoping that it is. Being persuaded that a thing is true is stronger in its certainty than merely hoping that it is true. And the saints listed in Hebrews 11, despite seeing the promises of God "afar off" were nonetheless persuaded of the truth and reality of them rather than merely hoped they would be fulfilled.



This is entirely unbiblical. If our salvation is so uncertain, why did Paul write,

2 Corinthians 13:5
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified.


If no one can truly know that they are saved, Paul's words here are nonsensical. Is this what you're saying? Is Paul writing nonsense here? The only other alternative is that you are mistaken in your thinking on salvation.

The Bible offers a number of signs of genuine conversion, signs by which to do as Paul commands and discern if one is truly born again or not:

1. The Fruit Test:

Matthew 7:17-20
17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.


(See also 1 John 2:3-6)

2. A Love of the Brethren:

1 John 3:14
14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.


3. A hunger for the Word of God:

Jeremiah 15:16
16 Your words were found, and I ate them, And Your word was to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart; For I am called by Your name, O Lord God of hosts.


Psalms 19:9-11
9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, Yea, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them Your servant is warned, And in keeping them there is great reward.


4. The Inner Witness of God's Spirit:

Romans 8:16
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God...




This is the sort of thinking that happens when one does not properly know and understand Scripture. Paul wrote,

2 Timothy 1:12
12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.


Paul was not merely hoping he was saved; he was persuaded that his life, which he had committed to Christ, would be kept safe from the wrath and judgment of God and brought into heavenly and eternal rest and reward. Paul did not say in 2 Timothy 4:7 that he was fighting to keep his faith; he said only that he had kept it. And so he would, if he was persuaded as he said he was in the verse I quoted above. Paul's fight was against the tremendous resistance he encountered to his ministry to the Gentiles both temporally and spiritually. He recounts some of the "fight" in his letter to the Corinthian church:

2 Corinthians 11:23-28
23 ...in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often.
24 From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness--
28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches.


Here was the "race" Paul had run, a description of the "fight" he had fought as he kept the faith, that is, lived in obedience to the commands and calling of God upon him.



Not so. See above.
You are putting yourself above Paul because he said he had to fight the good fight of faith to the end : But not you : You already know : All the great men of God in Heb 11 all died in faith not receiving the promises , but were persuaded of them : But not you : You already know : These understandings are only given to God’s elect : Mt 13(11): I certainly cannot make you understand them , only God can do this : So I pray God reveals them to you : Peace : Won’t argue anymore : Leave it to God .
 
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John tower

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I'm trying to do better at not arguing on this website, so I'm not going to reply any further to the strife that comes about with your forum posts, because quite frankly, it's never-ending contention that you cause.
Am I become your enemy because I tell you the truth : So everything I say is strife and what you say is Golden ?
 
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Call me Nic

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Am I become your enemy because I tell you the truth : So everything I say is strife and what you say is Golden ?
Enemy? Not at all. However, we cannot come to agreement in any matter because we both believe what we think is the truth. I cannot convince you, neither can you convince me, so I'm warning another that because of this, anything that follows is vain infighting and discord amongst the brethren. It seems to me that it has ceased to become a discussion and has become more like trench warfare, with both sides digging in against each other, not having enough to overcome the other in doctrine. Like WWI, there's no point.
 
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marineimaging

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Sadly you do not know what I am talking about : this understanding is not given to all Mt 13(11) and 1 Cor 2 : Not my doing But the Lord’s .
No. It is not "sadly". It is not mine to know because if I were to know the Holy Spirit would insure so.
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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In each of the three parables in Luke 15, it is stated that the sheep, coin and prodigal all repented. Therefore it would not be accurate to think that nothing was required of them
Respectfully, dear brother, I do not read that the sheep and the coin repented. Could you show me the verse. Now the son repented and went back home. But he still would have been the man's son even if he has died out there in the pig pen.See if the sheep did not belong to the shepherd, the shepherd never would have searched for him. The woman lost her coin in her house. Technically, because it was lost in her house, only it's usefulness was lost. But she swept her house and reclaimed the coin and it's usefulness. In all of these instances we see the owners reclaiming all what belonged to them. It is not about us. It is about who owns us.
Also, all of them were "lost." What do you suppose that means? Do you think it still implies sonship/ownership despite being lost?

If you have a son and he moves away, like to another state you know not which one, is he still your son?

Now we do agree that repentance is necessary but not in regards to salvation. There are consequences to disobedience.
1 Cor. 5: 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I know you know and believe that we are spirit, soul, and body. So you see the son who sinned with his Father's wife was not condemned to eternal destruction. Our Father has His ways of protecting what belongs to Him.
The case of the prodigal is even more emphatic. Jesus twice stated in vs. 24 & 32 that the prodigal was lost and is alive again.

The prodigal story is very touching and it makes me smile because there are two brothers there.Both went astray. One went off into lasciviousness and the other into legalism. But both were their father's sons. :)
 
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aiki

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You are putting yourself above Paul because he said he had to fight the good fight of faith to the end : But not you : You already know : All the great men of God in Heb 11 all died in faith not receiving the promises , but were persuaded of them : But not you : You already know : These understandings are only given to God’s elect : Mt 13(11): I certainly cannot make you understand them , only God can do this : So I pray God reveals them to you : Peace : Won’t argue anymore : Leave it to God .

I can't help it if you refuse to be taught. You're wrong. Flat-out wrong. I showed you why but you cannot accept what you've been shown. Okay. That's how the cookie crumbles; that's how the beard grows; that's how the crow flies; that's how Santa sleighs; that's...can you tell I'm a little bored? Anywhoo, I would recommend you take a class in biblical hermeneutics. It'll put some hair on your interpretive chest; it'll put some zing in your biblical zang; it'll stiffen your textual resolve...And so on. Still bored, you see...
 
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marineimaging

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My father who gave them to me is greater than all and no man is able to pluck them out of my fathers hand : The truth is that God’s true Elect can never be lost because they are kept by the power of God , not themselves , and no one can take them out of the fathers hand : However we of course do not know for sure now who are God’s true Elect : So we have to as the bible says over and over, operate by faith : but his true Elect whoever they are can never be lost because God is all powerful : Praise God !
I think we do know who are God's elect. They are Israel. The 144,000 are of the 12 tribes. 12,000 of each tribe x 12 tribes to preach to Israel is the 144,000.
 
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Oldmantook

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Respectfully, dear brother, I do not read that the sheep and the coin repented. Could you show me the verse. Now the son repented and went back home. But he still would have been the man's son even if he has died out there in the pig pen.See if the sheep did not belong to the shepherd, the shepherd never would have searched for him. The woman lost her coin in her house. Technically, because it was lost in her house, only it's usefulness was lost. But she swept her house and reclaimed the coin and it's usefulness. In all of these instances we see the owners reclaiming all what belonged to them. It is not about us. It is about who owns us.
v.7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. In this parable, is not the sheep representative of the sinner who repents? Yes the sheep did belong to the shepherd but it was lost and had to repent in order to be returned to the rest of the flock who had no need of repentance. Otherwise, no repentantance = no forgiveness = no salvation.
v.10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.In this parable, is not the coin representative of the sinner who repents?
Contrary to your claim that it is not about us, it is about us and whether we obey or not. You may want to refer to Heb 5:9.

If you have a son and he moves away, like to another state you know not which one, is he still your son?

Now we do agree that repentance is necessary but not in regards to salvation. There are consequences to disobedience.
1 Cor. 5: 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I know you know and believe that we are spirit, soul, and body. So you see the son who sinned with his Father's wife was not condemned to eternal destruction. Our Father has His ways of protecting what belongs to Him.
Using personal anthropocentric examples to illustrate spiritual truths are not adequate. Scriptural examples to illustrate spiritual truths are more than sufficient. Contrary to your opinion, one can be a son/child of God but one can revert to being a child of the devil.
Little children, let no one lead you astray; the one practicing righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. The one practicing sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this reason the Son of God was revealed, so that He might destroy the works of the devil (1 Jn 3:7-8).

One can be saved such as the example in 1 Cor 5:5 whereby one is delivered to Satan for the sake of deliverance for salvation however that does not logically preclude the possibility that a believer can still commit sin(s), never repent and end up losing salvation. For example I ask you: If you were to take the mark of the beast would you still be saved? Yes or no? According to your held view, you would still be saved because you believe that one is always a child of God. As you know, that is not what happens when a believer or anyone else takes the mark as they end up in the lake of fire as contrary to your statement, the Father has no obligation to protect what belongs to Him. That is why we are sternly warned not to take the mark lest we face the consequence of eternal death.

The prodigal story is very touching and it makes me smile because there are two brothers there.Both went astray. One went off into lasciviousness and the other into legalism. But both were their father's sons.
They were sons but you neglect to explain how a person can be made alive again which is the point that Jesus himself chose to emphasize. Can one be a son if one is spiritually dead?
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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Can one be a son if one is spiritually dead?
No. But once one is born a son, one is no longer spiritually dead.Our Father knows how to protect what belongs to Him. Nothing can snatch us out of His hands. It is late. I am tired, Goodnight.
 
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thesunisout

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( 10 ) : ” CAN YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE SAVED ? “
August 24, 2017gigoboy777 Leave a comment
You hear people all the time, with great spiritual pride , say that they KNOW that they are saved with no doubts whatsoever , and that if you have any doubts , there is something wrong with your faith ! Well is it possible to know that you are saved without any doubts whatsoever ! The bible says that we are saved by grace through faith : EPHESIANS 2 ( 8 ) : ” For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH ! ” Well just what exactly is faith ? : The bible’s definition : HEBREWS 11 ( 1 ) : ” Now faith is the substance of THINGS HOPED FOR , the evidence of THINGS NOT SEEN . ” So FAITH IS HOPING for something that we as yet CANNOT SEE , but we are believing that it will be , without any actual visual physical evidence of it, but only the evidence of THINGS NOT SEEN , which of course is not real evidence : So we ultimately have ONLY HOPE ! : ROMANS 8 ( 24&25 ) : 24 : ” FOR WE ARE SAVED BY HOPE , BUT HOPE THAT IS SEEN IS NOT HOPE , FOR WHAT A MAN SEETH WHY DOTH HE YET HOPE FOR IT ? ” 25 : ” BUT IF WE HOPE FOR THAT WE SEE NOT , THEN DO WE WITH PATIENCE ” WAIT FOR IT ” : OBVIOUSY HOPING IS NOT KNOWING ! For example : Did the great Saints of God all through history know that they were saved , or did they also have to operate by faith , hoping and believing that they would be saved at some future time , without any real present visible proof : HEBREWS 11 ( 13 , 27 , & 39 ) : 13 : ” These all died in faith , NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES , but having seen them afar off , and were persuaded of them . ” 27 : ” BY FAITH he forsook Egypt , not fearing the wrath of the king , for he endured as SEEING HIM WHO IS INVISIBLE . ” 39 : ” And these all , having obtained a good report through faith RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE . ” None of these great men of God received the promises , right unto their deaths , but OPERATED SOLELY ON HOPE AND BELIEF of things they believed would come : THEY DID NOT KNOW : THEY BELIEVED ! If we had absolute present visual proof of our salvation , it would be no big accomplishment to stick with the Lord, anybody could do that : But the fact that we only have hope makes it far more difficult to hang in there with the Lord to the end , like brother Paul says 1 TIMOTHY 6 ( 12 ) : ” Fight the good FIGHT OF FAITH . ” and 2 TIMOTHY 4 ( 7 ) : ” I have fought a good fight , I have finished my course , I have KEPT THE FAITH ! ” HE DIDN’T KNOW FOR SURE WITHOUT DOUBT , as he says : HE HAD TO FIGHT ALL THE WAY TO KEEP HIS FAITH , his belief , fight against the doubts , and he kept his faith with only hope : THE SAME HOPE THAT WE ALL HAVE TO SUSTAIN OUR FAITH : HEBREWS 6 ( 18&19 ) : 18 : ” To lay hold upon THE HOPE set before us , ” 19 : ” WHICH HOPE WE HAVE AS AN ANCHOR OF THE SOUL . ” Is there anything that we can do to increase and strengthen our faith ? : ROMANS 10 ( 17 ) : ” Faith cometh by hearing , and hearing by the word of God ” If we study the word of God and read where all God’s true people also had to operate by hope and faith alone : This strengthens our faith also ! Of course there are many who teach the false teaching that we are saved here and now , but the Bible says : 1 PETER 1 ( 13 ) : ” Hope to the end for the grace that IS TO BE BROUGHT UNTO YOU AT THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST ” : NOT NOW ! and 1 PETER 1 ( 9 ) : ” Receiving THE END OF YOUR FAITH even the salvation of your souls . ” : NOT NOW BUT AT THE END OF YOUR FAITH ! Further scriptural evidence that our salvation is not by knowing but only by hope : TITUS 1 ( 2 ) : ” In HOPE of eternal life . ” and TITUS 2 ( 13 ) : ” The HOPE of eternal life . ” and 1 THESSALONIANS 5 ( 8 ) : ‘ For an helmet the HOPE of salvation . ” There is only one verse that seems to say that we can know that we have eternal life and this is of course 1 JOHN 5 ( 13 ) : ” That you may know that you have eternal life . ” Yet this same brother two chapters earlier in 1 JOHN 3 ( 2 ) says that we can know that we shall be like God , but in the very next verse , talking about the same thing says : that WE ONLY HAVE A HOPE OF THIS : 1 JOHN 3 ( 2&3 ) : 2 : ” We know that when he shall appear , we shall be like him . ” 3 : ” And every man that hath this HOPE in him purifieth himself . ” So we can see that when John says we can know something he actually means THAT WE HAVE THIS HOPE ! So applying this understanding to 1 JOHN 5 ( 13 ) , when he says that we may know that we have eternal life , this would mean that we actually only have a hope of this as he said in 1 JOHN 3 ( 3 ) . The fact that the rest of the scriptures all say that we have only hope clarifies what exactly 1 JOHN 5 ( 13 ) really means , and it is a widely misunderstood verse which those that are unlearned and unstable wrest, 2 PETER 3 ( 16 ) . So the answer to the opening question of this study would be : NO WE CANNOT KNOW THAT WE ARE SAVED HERE AND NOW , BUT WE HAVE TO OPERATE AS ALL GOD’S PEOPLE THROUGH HISTORY HAVE OPERATED , BY FAITH , WHICH IS ONLY HOPE OF SOME FUTURE THING , WHICH AT PRESENT WE CANNOT VISUALLY SEE , SO WE HAVE TO FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH , BELIEF TO THE END OF OUR TIME HERE, AFTER WHICH IF WE KEEP THE FAITH , THEN WE WILL RECEIVE THE PROMISE : THIS IS ALL BY FAITH : NOT KNOWING : BUT FAITH !

Romans 8

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

I like something that Ravi Zacharias said: "Jesus didn't come to make bad men good, He came to make dead men alive". What he said is biblical, because we are dead in trespasses and sins before we know the Lord.

So, are you telling me you don't know if you are dead or alive? You don't know if you have the Holy Spirit living inside of you?
 
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Oldmantook

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No. But once one is born a son, one is no longer spiritually dead.Our Father knows how to protect what belongs to Him. Nothing can snatch us out of His hands. It is late. I am tired, Goodnight.
Given its proper context, not being snatched out of the Father's hand only pertains to those sheep who hear and follow Jesus - according to Jn 10:27. Those sheep who are disobedient are not recipients of the promises of Jn 10:28. Instead, sin that is not repented of results in spiritual death for the believer. Otherwise how would you explain what Jesus meant by being made alive again?
 
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Wordkeeper

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( 10 ) : ” CAN YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE SAVED ? “
August 24, 2017gigoboy777 Leave a comment
You hear people all the time, with great spiritual pride , say that they KNOW that they are saved with no doubts whatsoever , and that if you have any doubts , there is something wrong with your faith ! Well is it possible to know that you are saved without any doubts whatsoever ! The bible says that we are saved by grace through faith : EPHESIANS 2 ( 8 ) : ” For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH ! ” Well just what exactly is faith ? : The bible’s definition : HEBREWS 11 ( 1 ) : ” Now faith is the substance of THINGS HOPED FOR , the evidence of THINGS NOT SEEN . ” So FAITH IS HOPING for something that we as yet CANNOT SEE , but we are believing that it will be , without any actual visual physical evidence of it, but only the evidence of THINGS NOT SEEN , which of course is not real evidence : So we ultimately have ONLY HOPE ! : ROMANS 8 ( 24&25 ) : 24 : ” FOR WE ARE SAVED BY HOPE , BUT HOPE THAT IS SEEN IS NOT HOPE , FOR WHAT A MAN SEETH WHY DOTH HE YET HOPE FOR IT ? ” 25 : ” BUT IF WE HOPE FOR THAT WE SEE NOT , THEN DO WE WITH PATIENCE ” WAIT FOR IT ” : OBVIOUSY HOPING IS NOT KNOWING ! For example : Did the great Saints of God all through history know that they were saved , or did they also have to operate by faith , hoping and believing that they would be saved at some future time , without any real present visible proof : HEBREWS 11 ( 13 , 27 , & 39 ) : 13 : ” These all died in faith , NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES , but having seen them afar off , and were persuaded of them . ” 27 : ” BY FAITH he forsook Egypt , not fearing the wrath of the king , for he endured as SEEING HIM WHO IS INVISIBLE . ” 39 : ” And these all , having obtained a good report through faith RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE . ” None of these great men of God received the promises , right unto their deaths , but OPERATED SOLELY ON HOPE AND BELIEF of things they believed would come : THEY DID NOT KNOW : THEY BELIEVED ! If we had absolute present visual proof of our salvation , it would be no big accomplishment to stick with the Lord, anybody could do that : But the fact that we only have hope makes it far more difficult to hang in there with the Lord to the end , like brother Paul says 1 TIMOTHY 6 ( 12 ) : ” Fight the good FIGHT OF FAITH . ” and 2 TIMOTHY 4 ( 7 ) : ” I have fought a good fight , I have finished my course , I have KEPT THE FAITH ! ” HE DIDN’T KNOW FOR SURE WITHOUT DOUBT , as he says : HE HAD TO FIGHT ALL THE WAY TO KEEP HIS FAITH , his belief , fight against the doubts , and he kept his faith with only hope : THE SAME HOPE THAT WE ALL HAVE TO SUSTAIN OUR FAITH : HEBREWS 6 ( 18&19 ) : 18 : ” To lay hold upon THE HOPE set before us , ” 19 : ” WHICH HOPE WE HAVE AS AN ANCHOR OF THE SOUL . ” Is there anything that we can do to increase and strengthen our faith ? : ROMANS 10 ( 17 ) : ” Faith cometh by hearing , and hearing by the word of God ” If we study the word of God and read where all God’s true people also had to operate by hope and faith alone : This strengthens our faith also ! Of course there are many who teach the false teaching that we are saved here and now , but the Bible says : 1 PETER 1 ( 13 ) : ” Hope to the end for the grace that IS TO BE BROUGHT UNTO YOU AT THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST ” : NOT NOW ! and 1 PETER 1 ( 9 ) : ” Receiving THE END OF YOUR FAITH even the salvation of your souls . ” : NOT NOW BUT AT THE END OF YOUR FAITH ! Further scriptural evidence that our salvation is not by knowing but only by hope : TITUS 1 ( 2 ) : ” In HOPE of eternal life . ” and TITUS 2 ( 13 ) : ” The HOPE of eternal life . ” and 1 THESSALONIANS 5 ( 8 ) : ‘ For an helmet the HOPE of salvation . ” There is only one verse that seems to say that we can know that we have eternal life and this is of course 1 JOHN 5 ( 13 ) : ” That you may know that you have eternal life . ” Yet this same brother two chapters earlier in 1 JOHN 3 ( 2 ) says that we can know that we shall be like God , but in the very next verse , talking about the same thing says : that WE ONLY HAVE A HOPE OF THIS : 1 JOHN 3 ( 2&3 ) : 2 : ” We know that when he shall appear , we shall be like him . ” 3 : ” And every man that hath this HOPE in him purifieth himself . ” So we can see that when John says we can know something he actually means THAT WE HAVE THIS HOPE ! So applying this understanding to 1 JOHN 5 ( 13 ) , when he says that we may know that we have eternal life , this would mean that we actually only have a hope of this as he said in 1 JOHN 3 ( 3 ) . The fact that the rest of the scriptures all say that we have only hope clarifies what exactly 1 JOHN 5 ( 13 ) really means , and it is a widely misunderstood verse which those that are unlearned and unstable wrest, 2 PETER 3 ( 16 ) . So the answer to the opening question of this study would be : NO WE CANNOT KNOW THAT WE ARE SAVED HERE AND NOW , BUT WE HAVE TO OPERATE AS ALL GOD’S PEOPLE THROUGH HISTORY HAVE OPERATED , BY FAITH , WHICH IS ONLY HOPE OF SOME FUTURE THING , WHICH AT PRESENT WE CANNOT VISUALLY SEE , SO WE HAVE TO FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH , BELIEF TO THE END OF OUR TIME HERE, AFTER WHICH IF WE KEEP THE FAITH , THEN WE WILL RECEIVE THE PROMISE : THIS IS ALL BY FAITH : NOT KNOWING : BUT FAITH !
You can know you're saved if you have entered eternal life. Eternal life is to know God.

Very simple statements, but loaded with so much meaning.

Don't take the simplistic answers from the denominations.

Eternal life is not immortality. Eternal life is living so that the harvest, fruit of your efforts, does not perish or rust.

Knowing God is not the cognitive act of believing He exists. Knowing God is becoming alive, union with God, just as Joseph knew Mary. When Adam was separated from God, he died.

So if a person says he is a believer, but does not show fruit now, he hasn't begun to live yet.

Ergo, not saved. There is a rest yet to be entered for him, a journey to be completed, a destination to be reached , a result to be met. As David, speaking in the Spirit, noted.
 
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John tower

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I think we do know who are God's elect. They are Israel. The 144,000 are of the 12 tribes. 12,000 of each tribe x 12 tribes to preach to Israel is the 144,000.
Yes : the Israel of God : Not flesh Israel : They which are the children of the flesh : these are not the children of God , but the children of the promise are counted : for the seed : There is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ : He is not a Jew who is one outwardly but inwardly : spiritual Israel the Israel of God : Rev 2(9), 3(9)!
 
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Oldmantook

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Does it have to mean you're not saved if you don't feel saved? This is kind of discouraging. :sigh:
Read the book of 1 John as it provides assurances to know if one is saved or not. One need not depend on feelings which can swing back and forth.
1 Jn 2:29 ...everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.
1 Jn 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in Him. By this we know we are in Him.
1 Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
1 Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.
1 Jn 3:21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.
 
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sunlover1

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( 10 ) : ” CAN YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE SAVED ? “
August 24, 2017gigoboy777 Leave a comment
You hear people all the time, with great spiritual pride , say that they KNOW that they are saved with no doubts whatsoever , and that if you have any doubts , there is something wrong with your faith ! Well is it possible to know that you are saved without any doubts whatsoever ! The bible says that we are saved by grace through faith : EPHESIANS 2 ( 8 ) : ” For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH ! ” Well just what exactly is faith ? : The bible’s definition : HEBREWS 11 ( 1 ) : ” Now faith is the substance of THINGS HOPED FOR , the evidence of THINGS NOT SEEN . ” So FAITH IS HOPING for something that we as yet CANNOT SEE , but we are believing that it will be , without any actual visual physical evidence of it, but only the evidence of THINGS NOT SEEN , which of course is not real evidence : So we ultimately have ONLY HOPE ! : ROMANS 8 ( 24&25 ) : 24 : ” FOR WE ARE SAVED BY HOPE , BUT HOPE THAT IS SEEN IS NOT HOPE , FOR WHAT A MAN SEETH WHY DOTH HE YET HOPE FOR IT ? ” 25 : ” BUT IF WE HOPE FOR THAT WE SEE NOT , THEN DO WE WITH PATIENCE ” WAIT FOR IT ” : OBVIOUSY HOPING IS NOT KNOWING ! For example : Did the great Saints of God all through history know that they were saved , or did they also have to operate by faith , hoping and believing that they would be saved at some future time , without any real present visible proof : HEBREWS 11 ( 13 , 27 , & 39 ) : 13 : ” These all died in faith , NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES , but having seen them afar off , and were persuaded of them . ” 27 : ” BY FAITH he forsook Egypt , not fearing the wrath of the king , for he endured as SEEING HIM WHO IS INVISIBLE . ” 39 : ” And these all , having obtained a good report through faith RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE . ” None of these great men of God received the promises , right unto their deaths , but OPERATED SOLELY ON HOPE AND BELIEF of things they believed would come : THEY DID NOT KNOW : THEY BELIEVED ! If we had absolute present visual proof of our salvation , it would be no big accomplishment to stick with the Lord, anybody could do that : But the fact that we only have hope makes it far more difficult to hang in there with the Lord to the end , like brother Paul says 1 TIMOTHY 6 ( 12 ) : ” Fight the good FIGHT OF FAITH . ” and 2 TIMOTHY 4 ( 7 ) : ” I have fought a good fight , I have finished my course , I have KEPT THE FAITH ! ” HE DIDN’T KNOW FOR SURE WITHOUT DOUBT , as he says : HE HAD TO FIGHT ALL THE WAY TO KEEP HIS FAITH , his belief , fight against the doubts , and he kept his faith with only hope : THE SAME HOPE THAT WE ALL HAVE TO SUSTAIN OUR FAITH : HEBREWS 6 ( 18&19 ) : 18 : ” To lay hold upon THE HOPE set before us , ” 19 : ” WHICH HOPE WE HAVE AS AN ANCHOR OF THE SOUL . ” Is there anything that we can do to increase and strengthen our faith ? : ROMANS 10 ( 17 ) : ” Faith cometh by hearing , and hearing by the word of God ” If we study the word of God and read where all God’s true people also had to operate by hope and faith alone : This strengthens our faith also ! Of course there are many who teach the false teaching that we are saved here and now , but the Bible says : 1 PETER 1 ( 13 ) : ” Hope to the end for the grace that IS TO BE BROUGHT UNTO YOU AT THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST ” : NOT NOW ! and 1 PETER 1 ( 9 ) : ” Receiving THE END OF YOUR FAITH even the salvation of your souls . ” : NOT NOW BUT AT THE END OF YOUR FAITH ! Further scriptural evidence that our salvation is not by knowing but only by hope : TITUS 1 ( 2 ) : ” In HOPE of eternal life . ” and TITUS 2 ( 13 ) : ” The HOPE of eternal life . ” and 1 THESSALONIANS 5 ( 8 ) : ‘ For an helmet the HOPE of salvation . ” There is only one verse that seems to say that we can know that we have eternal life and this is of course 1 JOHN 5 ( 13 ) : ” That you may know that you have eternal life . ” Yet this same brother two chapters earlier in 1 JOHN 3 ( 2 ) says that we can know that we shall be like God , but in the very next verse , talking about the same thing says : that WE ONLY HAVE A HOPE OF THIS : 1 JOHN 3 ( 2&3 ) : 2 : ” We know that when he shall appear , we shall be like him . ” 3 : ” And every man that hath this HOPE in him purifieth himself . ” So we can see that when John says we can know something he actually means THAT WE HAVE THIS HOPE ! So applying this understanding to 1 JOHN 5 ( 13 ) , when he says that we may know that we have eternal life , this would mean that we actually only have a hope of this as he said in 1 JOHN 3 ( 3 ) . The fact that the rest of the scriptures all say that we have only hope clarifies what exactly 1 JOHN 5 ( 13 ) really means , and it is a widely misunderstood verse which those that are unlearned and unstable wrest, 2 PETER 3 ( 16 ) . So the answer to the opening question of this study would be : NO WE CANNOT KNOW THAT WE ARE SAVED HERE AND NOW , BUT WE HAVE TO OPERATE AS ALL GOD’S PEOPLE THROUGH HISTORY HAVE OPERATED , BY FAITH , WHICH IS ONLY HOPE OF SOME FUTURE THING , WHICH AT PRESENT WE CANNOT VISUALLY SEE , SO WE HAVE TO FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH , BELIEF TO THE END OF OUR TIME HERE, AFTER WHICH IF WE KEEP THE FAITH , THEN WE WILL RECEIVE THE PROMISE : THIS IS ALL BY FAITH : NOT KNOWING : BUT FAITH !
Since we're all saved by FAITH and by the word of OUR testimony,
there's really only two who can know if I'm saved, God and me.
Sad sad day for he who has no idea if He's seated in the Heavenlies
with Christ Jesus.
:/
In fact, anyone who does NOT KNOW FOR CERTAIN that He's "in Christ"
(Crucified with Christ, died with Christ, rose with Christ, and no longer
even lives but Christ, the hope of glory who lives IN him) might want
to pray and fast .. because fasting brings great light and power.

IMO
 
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sunlover1

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I'm trying to do better at not arguing on this website, so I'm not going to reply any further to the strife that comes about with your forum posts, because quite frankly, it's never-ending contention that you cause.
Good for you Nicolaus! Blessed are the peacemakers:
for they shall be called the children of God!
 
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sunlover1

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Again it’s by faith which is only hope not knowing : read the bible study : this is a classic example of false previous teaching totally blocking people from seeing the obvious crystal clear truth of the bible : we are saved by faith : faith is not knowing : it is faith : look up the bibles own definition of faith : Heb 11(1): Substance Of things hoped for : hope is not knowing : it is hope : that’s what the fight of faith is all about : because it’s not knowing but hope : Paul says he fought a good fight : but I guess you people are above Paul : You don’t have to fight because you already know : totally unscriptural : Rom 8(24) : Peace brothers and sisters .
Wrong, Faith isn't hope. They're completely different
Without this kind of faith in fact, it's "IMPOSSIBLE" to please God
yikes!
I hope God will heal me
Vs
I KNOW God will heal me
makes all the difference in the outcome!
 
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John tower

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Wrong, Faith isn't hope. They're completely different
Without this kind of faith in fact, it's "IMPOSSIBLE" to please God
yikes!
I hope God will heal me:
Vs
I KNOW God will heal me
makes all the difference in the outcome!
Heb 11(1): Faith is the substance of things hoped for! : but this brother says faith is not hope : what do you do with these people !
 
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sunlover1

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Heb 11(1): Faith is the substance of things hoped for! : but this brother says faith is not hope : what do you do with these people !
Im not a guy, but that's alright! lol

Let's dig!
We both want THE truth, not OUR truth, right?
Wooot!

New International Version
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
New Living Translation
Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see.
English Standard Version
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Berean Study Bible
Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.
Berean Literal Bible
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not being seen.
New American Standard Bible
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
King James Bible
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Christian Standard Bible
Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen.
Contemporary English Version
Faith makes us sure of what we hope for and gives us proof of what we cannot see.
Good News Translation
To have faith is to be sure of the things we hope for, to be certain of the things we cannot see.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen.
International Standard Version
Now faith is the assurance that what we hope for will come about and the certainty that what we cannot see exists.
NET Bible
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see.
New Heart English Bible
Now faith is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Now faith is the conviction concerning those things that are in hope, as if it were these things in action, and the revelation of those things that are unseen;
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Faith assures us of things we expect and convinces us of the existence of things we cannot see.
New American Standard 1977
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Jubilee Bible 2000
Faith, therefore, is the substance of things waited for, the evidence of things not seen.
King James 2000 Bible
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
American King James Version
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
American Standard Version
Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not.
Darby Bible Translation
Now faith is [the] substantiating of things hoped for, [the] conviction of things not seen.
English Revised Version
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the proving of things not seen.
Webster's Bible Translation
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Weymouth New Testament
Now faith is a well-grounded assurance of that for which we hope, and a conviction of the reality of things which we do not see.

World English Bible
Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, proof of things not seen.
Young's Literal Translation
And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,


Highlights are mine :)
Anyhow
obviously FAITH isn't HOPE
it's the "assurance, conviction, certainty.. etc" of things we hope FOR.

Paradigm shifts for all of us!
 
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