Do you think it OK for Jew and non-Jew to be seated at the same table?

BukiRob · Mar 27, 2018

AbbaLove said:
NOTE: These Posts have been removed from another thread as they were Off Topic. This can be discussed in it's own thread.

Sar Shalom, across the river from Beth Immanuel(Daniel Lancaster) is a Jewish Messianic Synagogue whose Passover Seder is open to the public. Attendees have a choice of: Chicken Chandelaise, Salmon Entree or Vegetarian. Do you think it OK for Jew and non-Jew to be seated at the same table?

NOTE: Seating is reserved on a first-come, first-serve basis. In the event that
tables are overbooked, large groups may be bumped to the closest available table.

Chabad (orthodox) has the following custom (uncircumcised non-jews don't particapate) ...

Some Reform and Conservative Jewish congregations make exceptions for allowing non-Jews to participate in their Passover Seder. Wouldn't it stand to reason that any Messianic congregation composed of Jew and non-Jew not put restrictions on only allowing circumcised MJs at a Passover Seder?

FWIW, Daniel Lancaster refers to himself as a Pastor not a Rabbi.

If this is a messianic synagogue I don't see it as a problem assuming the MALE gentile is circumcised.

I think that we cant trade what scripture says over trying to be "polite." Scripture seems pretty clear to me... if you are gentile you CAN NOT partake in the Passover Seder if you are not circumcized

BukiRob · Mar 27, 2018

visionary said:
Who is going to look and verify he is circumcised?

That isnt the issue nor should it be. What IS the issue is are we going to do what scripture tells us to do or not.

BukiRob · Mar 27, 2018

AbbaLove said:
The MJ Only Debate was started to discuss whether ONLY Torah Observant Messianic Jews should participate in a Pesach/Passover Seder Service. However, in the event a Messianic Judaism Synagogue decides to open it's Seder Service to the public should the non-Jewish participants (e.g. male Christians) be permitted to sit at the same table as the 8-day circumcised male Jewish participants. For example some Conservative Synagogues will allow Christians to participate in their Pesach Seder Service, but may require non-Jewish Christian participants to sit at tables assigned to non-Jewish participants.

IMO, it's just another example of the divisive walls that already exist among Christian denominations that's been spilling over into Messianic Judaism and more recent Orthodox Yeshua-Centered Judaism. Like that practiced by Yeshua and His 1st Century followers referred to as The Way ( הדרך ). This Messianic orthodoxy may be the beginning of a trend as many Messianic congregations now have far more non-Jewish members (e.g. Beth Immanuel Messianic Synagogue) than Jewish members. This presents a problem for Messianic Jews that may feel more comfortable going to a Conservative Jewish Synagogue surrounded by fellow Jews. So, to compensate a Messianic Judaism Synagogue takes on more appearance of Torah Observant orthodoxy hoping to draw more Messianic Jews to their Synagogue than a Conservative Jewish Synagogue ... time will tell.

So, i agree with you when you say, "What's going on here?" as the bottomline of the MJ Only Debate [IMO] seems to amount to: Should interested, but non-Torah Observant non-Jewish Christian males that aren't circumcised or weren't circumcised on the eighth day according to Jewish orthodoxy be permitted to take part in a Messianic Judaism Passover Seder. The answer seems simple enuf. If such a Messianic Judaism Synagogue decides to open the Seder to the public (e.g. non-Jewish non-Torah Observant Christians) then segregate by seating them at non-Jewish tables.

So, we see the divisiveness of the MJ ONLY debate when it comes to Jewish circumcision on the 8th day vs Christian circumcision at 1-2 days or no circumcision as a deciding factor as to deciding who can't attend a Pesach Seder Service based on strict 1st Century Messianic Jewish orthodoxy after 70 AD.

In all honesty, I think that move will continue in Messianic Judaism. I'm not entirely supportive of the Oral Torah as some of it really supplants what scripture plain states to do but where Oral Torah can bring a clearer understanding of parts of Torah that are difficult to fully understand then it brings great value.

I am certainly not an authority on the MJ movement as a whole but I know the synagogue I attend a Torah centered lifestyle is encouraged. They see their mission is to be a place where religious ethnic Jews can come and see a Shabbat service that will look very, very similar to the traditional synagogue they belong too. The main difference being Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah.

I have never been asked if I am circumcised in order to attend a Passover Seder... I typically for the last several years have done them in my own home.

I guess my main potential issue with having gentiles that you do not know for certain are circumcized sitting with ethnic Jews is taht if you mistakenly sit an uncircumcized gentile at a table with jews at a seder then ritually speaking you have made them unclean.

For this reason I would keep them seperate unless you KNOW that the gentile is circumcised

visionary · Mar 28, 2018

BukiRob said:
That isnt the issue nor should it be. What IS the issue is are we going to do what scripture tells us to do or not.

Really!! So we are by "what" to verify there is a issue?? his say so.

Heber Book List · Mar 28, 2018

visionary said:
Who is going to look and verify he is circumcised?

By their fruit you shall know them or, if the community knows them, or knows of them, a few questions will confirm, or not.

Soyeong · Mar 28, 2018

AbbaLove said:
NOTE: These Posts have been removed from another thread as they were Off Topic. This can be discussed in it's own thread.

Sar Shalom, across the river from Beth Immanuel(Daniel Lancaster) is a Jewish Messianic Synagogue whose Passover Seder is open to the public. Attendees have a choice of: Chicken Chandelaise, Salmon Entree or Vegetarian. Do you think it OK for Jew and non-Jew to be seated at the same table?

NOTE: Seating is reserved on a first-come, first-serve basis. In the event that
tables are overbooked, large groups may be bumped to the closest available table.

Chabad (orthodox) has the following custom (uncircumcised non-jews don't particapate) ...

Some Reform and Conservative Jewish congregations make exceptions for allowing non-Jews to participate in their Passover Seder. Wouldn't it stand to reason that any Messianic congregation composed of Jew and non-Jew not put restrictions on only allowing circumcised MJs at a Passover Seder?

FWIW, Daniel Lancaster refers to himself as a Pastor not a Rabbi.

I was about to say that that seating arrangement looked very familiar and then I read that you were speaking about my congregation. If I recall correctly, then I'll be at table 18 and will be happy to meet anyone who wants to come. I've been attending for about five years and can assure you that no policy exists that restricts circumcised Jews from eating with uncircumcised Gentiles. In Acts 10:28, Peter referred to a law that prohibited Jews from visiting or associating with Gentiles, but this is a man-made law that is not found anywhere in the Torah and is in fact contrary to it. In Leviticus 19:18 and 34 we are instructed to love our neighbor and the stranger as ourselves, which is rather difficult to do when refusing to visit or associate with them. Jews have the God-given role of being a light to the nations, of blessing them by teaching them turn from their wicked ways to walking in God's aways (Isaiah 2:2-23, Isaiah 49:6, Deuteronomy 4:5-8), so while we are to be holy and set apart from the nations so as to act as a light to them, we are not to isolate ourselves either. In was this man-made law that Peter was obeying in Galatians 2:11-16 when he stopped visiting or associating with the Gentiles, which gave credibility to the Jews who were saying that people had to obey their works of law in order to become saved, so Peter's actions were essentially telling Gentiles that they weren't saved, which is why Paul rebuked him and immediately reiterated that we are justified by faith, not by their works of law.

We also have many excellent studies and articles posted on our website that I recommend:

Jewish Festivals-or Festivals of the Lord, Audio Teaching

visionary · Mar 28, 2018

Heber Book List said:
By their fruit you shall know them or, if the community knows them, or knows of them, a few questions will confirm, or not.

Does the community accept circumcision done by hospital?

Soyeong · Mar 28, 2018

BukiRob said:
If this is a messianic synagogue I don't see it as a problem assuming the MALE gentile is circumcised.

I think that we cant trade what scripture says over trying to be "polite." Scripture seems pretty clear to me... if you are gentile you CAN NOT partake in the Passover Seder if you are not circumcized

My understanding of it is that it is specifically prohibiting eating of the Passover lamb, not to prohibiting anything else relating to Passover.

Heber Book List · Mar 28, 2018

visionary said:
Does the community accept circumcision done by hospital?

I wouldn't presume to make a decision on that. The leader has that responsibility!

AbbaLove · Mar 28, 2018

visionary said:
Does the community accept circumcision done by hospital?

May a Brit Milah be performed by a (non-Jewish) doctor?
www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/06/why-non-jews-are-choosing-jewish-circumcision-ceremonies/395552/

Then when they grow up they can attend a Jewish Pesach Seder Service
(just be sure to get a Jewish certificate of proof and a couple photos)

Philip Sherman, a mohel and a cantor at Congregation Shearith Israel, a synagogue in New York, estimates that he’s done more than 21,000 circumcisions over his 40-year career, and that he now does one or two per month on non-Jews.

PittBullMom · Mar 30, 2018

Heber Book List said:
[\QUOTE] Jews should keep away from Gentiles!

I certainly didn't find that in Salford and Prestwich, Manchester where I lived, until recently. Even in Mea Shearim, Jerusalem, it was not often obvious.[/QUOTE]

Ever been to Lakewood,NJ ?

Heber Book List · Mar 30, 2018

PittBullMom said:
I certainly didn't find that in Salford and Prestwich, Manchester where I lived, until recently. Even in Mea Shearim, Jerusalem, it was not often obvious.

Ever been to Lakewood,NJ ?[/QUOTE]

No

BukiRob · Mar 30, 2018

Soyeong said:
My understanding of it is that it is specifically prohibiting eating of the Passover lamb, not to prohibiting anything else relating to Passover.

Exodus 12:48
"But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it.

The uncircumcised male can not come near to celebrate it.

IMO its pretty clear that Yah is speaking about more than just eating the lamb.

BukiRob · Mar 30, 2018

visionary said:
Really!! So we are by "what" to verify there is a issue?? his say so.

Uhmmm your sentence here makes no sense.

Soyeong · Mar 30, 2018

BukiRob said:
Exodus 12:48
"But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it.

The uncircumcised male can not come near to celebrate it.

IMO its pretty clear that Yah is speaking about more than just eating the lamb.

It specifies that the way of celebrating it that it is speaking about is by eating of the Passover lamb.

BukiRob · Mar 30, 2018

Soyeong said:
It specifies that the way of celebrating it that it is speaking about is by eating of the Passover lamb.

I completely disagree. There is absolutely no language anywhere in Exodus 12 that communicates anything other than an uncircumcised male MAY NOT celebrate Passover of the Lord.

Your view would certainly have some merit for examination IF there were anything in the chapter that either separated parts of the Passover celebration or if there were any hint that the uncircumcised could participate in any way. But I see nothing to support your view... if you can show me in scripture differently I'm all ears (and eyes )

R. Hartono · Mar 31, 2018

Levi 19:34 The stranger that sojourneth with you shall be unto you as the home-born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were sojourners in the land of Egypt

visionary · Mar 31, 2018

BukiRob said:
Uhmmm your sentence here makes no sense.

Verification of circumcision? Do we go by the Gentile's statement, have the Rabbi look, not accept the hospital's work and redo, or what??

Heber Book List · Apr 2, 2018

Multiple posts appeared!

Heber Book List · Apr 2, 2018

Multiple posts appeared!

Heber Book List · Apr 2, 2018

visionary said:
Who is going to look and verify he is circumcised?

How do they cope with cross dressers - would a man who dressed as a woman be required to be circumcised, and to turn up as man, and not as a woman, for whom there is no circumcision.

What about someone who has undergone a gender change from man to woman? They were created as a man, so is it judged according to their sex at birth, or according to what happened on a hospital operating table?

Truly mind boggling!

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