Do you think it OK for Jew and non-Jew to be seated at the same table?

AbbaLove · Mar 12, 2018

NOTE: These Posts have been removed from another thread as they were Off Topic. This can be discussed in it's own thread.

Sar Shalom, across the river from Beth Immanuel(Daniel Lancaster) is a Jewish Messianic Synagogue whose Passover Seder is open to the public. Attendees have a choice of: Chicken Chandelaise, Salmon Entree or Vegetarian. Do you think it OK for Jew and non-Jew to be seated at the same table?

NOTE: Seating is reserved on a first-come, first-serve basis. In the event that
tables are overbooked, large groups may be bumped to the closest available table.

Chabad (orthodox) has the following custom (uncircumcised non-jews don't particapate) ...

The exception is the zeroa, which literally means “arm,” and refers to the piece of meat (traditionally a shank of a lamb, chicken thigh or chicken neck) that sits there all night long. The Chabad custom is to use a roasted chicken neck with most of its meat peeled off, and place it on the upper right side of the platter.

Some Reform and Conservative Jewish congregations make exceptions for allowing non-Jews to participate in their Passover Seder. Wouldn't it stand to reason that any Messianic congregation composed of Jew and non-Jew not put restrictions on only allowing circumcised MJs at a Passover Seder?

FWIW, Daniel Lancaster refers to himself as a Pastor not a Rabbi.

AbbaLove · Mar 12, 2018

Excuse my oversight for not including Sar Sholom's full name (Kehilat Sar Shalom) located in St Louis Park, MN ... so as not to be confused with Sar Shalom in Saginag, TX. Wouldn't you interpret "non-ethnically Jewish (male) members" as having to be circumcised as well as other requirements before being considered Jewish (Sar Shalom, Texas)?

"Sar Shalom, TX has both ethnically Jewish members and non-ethnically
Jewish members who have converted to Yeshua-centered Judaism.

Sar Shalom is orthodox on most points of halachah. We believe that the Scriptures are Divine, that Judaism is the true religion and the halacha
is authoritative. This places us in the category of being orthodox. In
some ways we might be described as Modern Orthodox, and in other ways as
Neo-Chassidic."

www.mysarshalom.com/about-sar-shalom/faq
www.mysarshalom.com/about-sar-shalom/mission-vision

From reading the above two links wouldn't one assume that their Pesach Seder Service (March 31st) is not open to the public (i.e. uncircumcised non-Jewish Messianics) as their website only mentions the two dates of their Pesach Service as March 31st and April 6th ... www.mysarshalom.com/ ... without any public invitation to non-Jews.

<staff edit>

Bottomline: Do some Jewish members of this MJ forum think the SOP language should favor Classic Orthodox Messianic Judaism as practiced by Yeshua and His Disciples? In other words only "ethnically Jewish members and non-ethnically Jewish members who have converted to Yeshua-centered Judaism" should participate in a Pesach Seder?

visionary · Mar 12, 2018

Who is going to look and verify he is circumcised?

AbbaLove · Mar 13, 2018

visionary said:
Who is going to look and verify he is circumcised?

Is that scenario even a concern within Messianic Judaism congregations when the Passover Seder is open to Christians and the general public? Maybe your question isn't serious, but good-natured being half jest, half earnest? If in earnest you may be thinking of a Yeshua-centered Judaism synagogue like that of Sar Shalom in Saginaw, TX.

"Sar Shalom is an observant Jewish synagogue that believes that Yeshua is the Messiah but we are not “messianic”. Messianic synagogues do not uphold the bulk of normative Jewish teachings, writings and traditions, nor do they embrace the Oral Torah (Talmud, etc.) to any appreciable degree."

"Sar Shalom has both ethnically Jewish members and non-ethnically Jewish members who have converted to Yeshua-centered Judaism – who shares our heart’s desire to praise, worship, learn, and grow in relationship with each other, in knowledge of Torah, in faith in Yeshua, and in love of HaShem!"

"In simplest terms, “messianic synagogues” and “Hebrew roots” congregations may look “Jewish” one day a week, but do not fully embrace a Torah observant lifestyle. This is not a criticism, it’s simply an explanation. Sar Shalom Synagogue embraces a distinctly and authentic Jewish identity – in form and function – as a daily lifestyle!"

Choir Loft · Mar 13, 2018

I do not understand the question .....

By that I mean to ask the purpose for stating it in the first place.

Is this a problem for somebody?

Is not the celebration enough or has its meaning been lost among those who presume to participate in it?

What's going on here?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

AbbaLove · Mar 13, 2018

Choir Loft said:
I do not understand the question ..... By that I mean to ask the purpose for stating it in the first place.

Is this a problem for somebody?

The MJ Only Debate was started to discuss whether ONLY Torah Observant Messianic Jews should participate in a Pesach/Passover Seder Service. However, in the event a Messianic Judaism Synagogue decides to open it's Seder Service to the public should the non-Jewish participants (e.g. male Christians) be permitted to sit at the same table as the 8-day circumcised male Jewish participants. For example some Conservative Synagogues will allow Christians to participate in their Pesach Seder Service, but may require non-Jewish Christian participants to sit at tables assigned to non-Jewish participants.

Choir Loft said:
Is not the celebration enough or has its meaning been lost among those who presume to participate in it? What's going on here?

IMO, it's just another example of the divisive walls that already exist among Christian denominations that's been spilling over into Messianic Judaism and more recent Orthodox Yeshua-Centered Judaism. Like that practiced by Yeshua and His 1st Century followers referred to as The Way ( הדרך ). This Messianic orthodoxy may be the beginning of a trend as many Messianic congregations now have far more non-Jewish members (e.g. Beth Immanuel Messianic Synagogue) than Jewish members. This presents a problem for Messianic Jews that may feel more comfortable going to a Conservative Jewish Synagogue surrounded by fellow Jews. So, to compensate a Messianic Judaism Synagogue takes on more appearance of Torah Observant orthodoxy hoping to draw more Messianic Jews to their Synagogue than a Conservative Jewish Synagogue ... time will tell.

So, i agree with you when you say, "What's going on here?" as the bottomline of the MJ Only Debate [IMO] seems to amount to: Should interested, but non-Torah Observant non-Jewish Christian males that aren't circumcised or weren't circumcised on the eighth day according to Jewish orthodoxy be permitted to take part in a Messianic Judaism Passover Seder. The answer seems simple enuf. If such a Messianic Judaism Synagogue decides to open the Seder to the public (e.g. non-Jewish non-Torah Observant Christians) then segregate by seating them at non-Jewish tables.

So, we see the divisiveness of the MJ ONLY debate when it comes to Jewish circumcision on the 8th day vs Christian circumcision at 1-2 days or no circumcision as a deciding factor as to deciding who can't attend a Pesach Seder Service based on strict 1st Century Messianic Jewish orthodoxy after 70 AD.

visionary said:
Who is going to look and verify he is circumcised?

Open Heart · Mar 13, 2018

AbbaLove said:
NOTE: These Posts have been removed from another thread as they were Off Topic. This can be discussed in it's own thread.

Sar Shalom, across the river from Beth Immanuel(Daniel Lancaster) is a Jewish Messianic Synagogue whose Passover Seder is open to the public. Attendees have a choice of: Chicken Chandelaise, Salmon Entree or Vegetarian. Do you think it OK for Jew and non-Jew to be seated at the same table?

NOTE: Seating is reserved on a first-come, first-serve basis. In the event that
tables are overbooked, large groups may be bumped to the closest available table.

Chabad (orthodox) has the following custom (uncircumcised non-jews don't particapate) ...

Some Reform and Conservative Jewish congregations make exceptions for allowing non-Jews to participate in their Passover Seder. Wouldn't it stand to reason that any Messianic congregation composed of Jew and non-Jew not put restrictions on only allowing circumcised MJs at a Passover Seder?

FWIW, Daniel Lancaster refers to himself as a Pastor not a Rabbi.

I have invited non-Jewish friends to come to my synagogue for its Seder meal.

AbbaLove · Mar 14, 2018

Open Heart said:
I have invited non-Jewish friends to come to my synagogue for its Seder meal.

like at Antioch you

too are a liberated Pauline

Paul was willing to face some conflict with Peter in order to
defend the truth of the gospel.

(1) Peter's practice of eating with the Gentile Christians,
(2) Peter's separation from Gentile Christians after the arrival of the circumcision group from James because of their prejudice,
(3) the separation of the other Jewish followers of The Way from Gentile Christians because of Peter's apparent fear of the Torah Observant Jews from Jerusalem
(4) Paul's rebuke for Peter's apparent hypocrisy (2:12)

The Conflict In Antioch ~ Galatians 2:11-14
nearly two thousand years have passed and yet it lingers

All the Jewish believers in Antioch were subservient to Peter's authority and followed his example. As a result the church was split into racial factions: Jews were divided from non-Jewish Christians. Paul accuses Peter and the rest of the Jewish believers in Antioch of hypocrisy, not heresy: the rest of the Jews joined him in his hypocrisy (v. 13). Their action was inconsistent with their own convictions about the truth of the gospel. They were more influenced by their common racial identity as Jews than by their new experience of unity in Mashiach Yeshua with all believers of every race.

... before certain men came from James, he [Peter] used to eat with the Gentile Christians ...

HOWEVER, integrating Jewish and non-Jewish Believers together at tables when celebrating a 1st century Pesach Seder Meal may have been going too far for Torah observance Paul.

That Seems To Be The Latest On-Going Debate
Can circumcision and uncirumcision be seated together at a Pesach Seder Service ?

The Way is narrow not wide

HARK! · Mar 14, 2018

AbbaLove said:
The MJ Only Debate was started to discuss whether ONLY Torah Observant Messianic Jews should participate in a Pesach/Passover Seder Service. However, in the event a Messianic Judaism Synagogue decides to open it's Seder Service to the public should the non-Jewish participants (e.g. male Christians) be permitted to sit at the same table as the 8-day circumcised male Jewish participants. For example some Conservative Synagogues will allow Christians to participate in their Pesach Seder Service, but may require non-Jewish Christian participants to sit at tables assigned to non-Jewish participants.

(CLV) Ex 12:48
In case a sojourner is sojourning with you, and he makes a passover to Yahweh, every male of his is to be circumcised, and then he may draw near to make it, and he will become as a native of the land. Yet anyone uncircumcised, he shall not eat of it.

(CLV) Ex 12:49
One law shall there be for both the native and for the sojourner sojourning in your midst.

Aside from that, I don't know if I am of Avraham's bloodline or not. I can't trace my family tree back that far.

visionary · Mar 15, 2018

I think too many generations have gone by for us to still be considering, even remotely, the possibility of segregation.

Elihoenai · Mar 15, 2018

Jews should keep away from Gentiles!

546px-Hasidic_Family_in_Street_-_Borough_Park_-_Hasidic_District_-_Brooklyn.jpg

Heber Book List · Mar 15, 2018

[\QUOTE] Jews should keep away from Gentiles![/QUOTE]

I certainly didn't find that in Salford and Prestwich, Manchester where I lived, until recently. Even in Mea Shearim, Jerusalem, it was not often obvious.

AbbaLove · Mar 15, 2018

visionary said:
I think too many generations have gone by for us to still be considering, even remotely, the possibility of segregation.

Assuming that is true than why the justification for the MJ Only Debate thread (circumcision vs uncircumcision)? Apparently some MJ members don't believe that Messianic Judaism is a form of Christianity even though CF says otherwise. Even so i doubt any member of Kehilat is going to inquire whether a male seated at the three outer tables is circumcised.

There isn't any segregation at Kehilat. It could be that the 5 that chose to sit at an outer table (32,20,25) by themselves are non-members and there first time attending Kehilat. If first time observers all five may later wish they had filled-in at table 9 ... so as to feel more involved

AbbaLove · Mar 15, 2018

Opps! double post

Willie T · Mar 15, 2018

Does this kind of pitiful attitude really still exist?

AbbaLove · Mar 15, 2018

Willie T said:
Does this kind of pitiful attitude really still exist?

Not at Kehilat Sar Shalom

and hopefully not among Messianic congregations in Israel like ...
ONE FOR ISRAEL (Messianic Jews In Israel)

"Whether or not a Christian celebrates Passover is a matter of personal conscience. Christians are no longer bound to observe the Passover Feast the way the Jewish people were commanded to, but it is very interesting and beneficial to dig into the symbolism nonetheless.

If you are able to attend a Passover seder meal with a Jewish family it can be a very meaningful and enlightening event. Christians can gain so much from this experience as they learn of God’s faithfulness to the children of Israel when He brought them out of Egypt into a whole new life of freedom."

www.oneforisrael.org/bible-based-teaching-from-israel/should-christians-celebrate-passover/

Elihoenai · Mar 16, 2018

Heber Book List said:
[\QUOTE] Jews should keep away from Gentiles!

I certainly didn't find that in Salford and Prestwich, Manchester where I lived, until recently. Even in Mea Shearim, Jerusalem, it was not often obvious.[/QUOTE]

Shomrim (neighborhood watch group)

Shomrim/Shmira (Hebrew: שומרים/שמירה‎) (lit. "watchers", "guards", "protection") are organizations of proactive volunteer Jewish civilian patrols which have been set up in Haredi communities in neighborhoods across the United States and Great Britain (and in many other countries) to combat burglary, vandalism, mugging, assault, domestic violence, nuisance crimes, antisemitic attacks, and to help and support victims of crime. They also help locate missing people.

Shomrim (neighborhood watch group) - Wikipedia

Stamford Hill

Stamford Hill is a district in the London Borough of Hackney in north-east London, England, located about 5.5 miles north-east of Charing Cross. The area is known for its Jewish Chasidic community, the largest concentration of Charedi Chasidic Jews in Europe.

Stamford Hill - Wikipedia

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]

AbbaLove · Mar 19, 2018

Willie T said:
Does this kind of pitiful attitude really still exist?

This thread was more of a tongue-in-cheek response to another thread which i read as an example of a more "orthodox" branch of Messianic Judaism ...

When we remember and keep the Passover we see the Matzoh as the bread from heaven, the body of Yeshua, the unblemished lamb. If we participate in this and the ordinances for keeping the Passover say that one must be circumcised why is that not held to? ... Debate-For MJ's Only - 'To Keep the Passover you must be circumcised'

First off i still don't understand whether the OP of the MJ

AbbaLove · Mar 19, 2018

Willie T said:
Does this kind of pitiful attitude really still exist?

This thread was a subtle tongue-in-cheek response to the following Debate MJ Only thread ...
Debate-For MJ's Only - 'To Keep the Passover you must be circumcised'

When we remember and keep the Passover we see the Matzoh as the bread from heaven, the body of Yeshua, the unblemished lamb. If we participate in this and the ordinances for keeping the Passover say that one must be circumcised why is that not held to?

Still don't understand whether the OP of this MJ Only Debate thread's above comment was serious or just throwing it out to see who would bite or what divisiveness might ensue. ?

Dave-W · Mar 23, 2018

AbbaLove said:
Sar Sholom's full name (Kehilat Sar Shalom) located in St Louis Park, MN ... so as not to be confused with Sar Shalom in Saginag, TX.

Or Kehilat Sar Shalom in Leesburg VA.
(our sister CPM congregation)

Do you think it OK for Jew and non-Jew to be seated at the same table?

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