If you are a sinner, you are NOT saved by grace!

Buzz_B · Feb 24, 2018

Ron Gurley said:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith (belief); and that (faith) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

PAST TENSE, COMPLETED ACTION!

Amazing GRACE...it continues as God the Holy Spirit guides and comforts the child of God more and more into the will of God...the SANCTIFICATION PROCESS!

2 Corinthians 12:9
And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for (SPIRITUAL) power is perfected (MATURED) in (HUMAN) weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

grace...Greek 5485...charis...
2.good will, loving-kindness, (unmerited) favour
1.of the merciful kindness by which God,
exerting his holy influence upon souls,
turns them to Christ,
keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and
kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues

Only when one analyses it as written in the English using English grammar rules. That is what leads you astray. You cannot force the English grammar onto what was originally written in the Koine' Greek. You must go back to the Greek text and use the Greek grammar rules to judge how the English should be interpreted. For English does not match precisely to the Greek as you are trying to force it to do.

Educate yourself in the Greek. In the Greek it is a continuous action verb being expressed as beginning in the present and continuing the saving action forward.

I for the life of me cannot understand why you guys comfort yourselves in an "I agree", "Like", "Winner", or "Informative" button, when the fact is that when you are wrong it does not matter if a billion others are as deceived as you are; It does not make you right.

Care to educate yourselves for real, instead of just pretending.

And care to understand what Paul was referring to at 2 Corinthians 12:9 rather than just twisting to use as support for whatever you desire to use it for.

Paul was speaking in context of his inadequacies being perfected to endurance. And this is what we are also told elsewhere is the benefit of trial, the perfecting of faith.

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

corinth77777 · Feb 24, 2018

Buzz_B said:
As beautifully clear and concise as your answer was in post 503, (If He does it out of gratitude, or being appreciative He doesn't earn it, but he still put in effort. Which on another hand may create habits that lead to maturity.") it is amazing that the many have not understood from the clarity of that one comment alone. It is a contest between wanting to understand but not wanting to be wrong.

That goes for me too...I've been there...done that and still work on it....that is why I am a learner...Yet You are right ....we must humble ourselves....I went to sleep with a whole bunch of truth that was unorganized and woke up with it clearer....that's Awesome..I don't know it the way I should but He is teaching me. God Is good, and truthful his words come alive......a scripture that came to mind after He made things clearer is He makes our path strait....see....Truth sets us free....everything works together...so we can walk in truth and be zealous for good works. G-d is amazing!

corinth77777 · Feb 24, 2018

If a good tree bares good fruit then it must first be made good. For if a tree bears bad fruit it still can't be good. So what the aim may be: is on making the whole tree good.

Buzz_B · Feb 24, 2018

corinth77777 said:
That goes for me too...I've been there...done that and still work on it....that is why I am a learner...Yet You are right ....we must humble ourselves....I went to sleep with a whole bunch of truth that was unorganized and woke up with it clearer....that's Awesome..I don't know it the way I should but He is teaching me. God Is good, and truthful his words come alive......a scripture that came to mind after He made things clearer is He makes our path strait....see....Truth sets us free....everything works together...so we can walk in truth and be zealous for good works. G-d is amazing!

Amen. and what a joy it is to awaken to that freedom to be wrong and know it means we can now actually begin to see and learn.

Those that know me call me a fanatic because I can't leave God nor the Scriptures out of anything I do. So I end up being counseled that I over-do it. And these are ones I had previously thought were into it as much as myself. I cannot fathom how they can feel as they do. But they claim, "You have to be able to live in the real world, too." And the next thing seen is that they fall away for awhile. And it is like a cycle for them of coming to faith and falling away, over and over again and again.

The problem with that is not just the dishonor we bring to God's name during those lapses, but the often irrevocable injury we do to our own lives and to the lives of those we love.

corinth77777 · Feb 24, 2018

Buzz_B said:
Only when one analyses it as written in the English using English grammar rules. That is what leads you astray. You cannot force the English grammar onto what was originally written in the Koine' Greek. You must go back to the Greek text and use the Greek grammar rules to judge how the English should be interpreted. For English does not match precisely to the Greek as you are trying to force it to do.

Educate yourself in the Greek. In the Greek it is a continuous action verb being expressed as beginning in the present and continuing the saving action forward.

I for the life of me cannot understand why you guys comfort yourselves in an "I agree", "Like", "Winner", or "Informative" button, when the fact is that when you are wrong it does not matter if a billion others are as deceived as you are; It does not make you right.

Care to educate yourselves for real, instead of just pretending.

And care to understand what Paul was referring to at 2 Corinthians 12:9 rather than just twisting to use as support for whatever you desire to use it for.

Paul was speaking in context of his inadequacies being perfected to endurance. And this is what we are also told elsewhere is the benefit of trial, the perfecting of faith.

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Lol...before I read this, I was just thinking it. And the how many times I've been wrong...smh
That is why when we come together we should not argue...but present our understanding ready to be corrected.
Then we do not have to keep trying to defend our wrong...or make our wrong right...smile
Lord forgive me for that...in Jesus name

corinth77777 · Feb 24, 2018

Buzz_B said:
Amen. and what a joy it is to awaken to that freedom to be wrong and know it means we can now actually begin to see and learn.

Those that know me call me a fanatic because I can't leave God nor the Scriptures out of anything I do. So I end up being counseled that I over-do it. And these are ones I had previously thought were into it as much as myself. I cannot fathom how they can feel as they do. But they claim, "You have to be able to live in the real world, too." And the next thing seen is that they fall away for awhile. And it is like a cycle for them of coming to faith and falling away, over and over again and again.

The problem with that is not just the dishonor we bring to God's name during those lapses, but the often irrevocable injury we do to our own lives and to the lives of those we love.

I don't have the wisdom you do..but willing to learn from you.....
But I am called the eccentric in my family as well....but now it's not negative to me...

Buzz_B · Feb 24, 2018

corinth77777 said:
Lol...before I read this, I was just thinking it. And the how many times I've been wrong...smh
That is why when we come together we should not argue...but present our understanding ready to be corrected.
Then we do not have to keep trying to defend our wrong...or make our wrong right...smile
Lord forgive me for that...in Jesus name

Yes, there is no doubt in my mind that you have been established in spiritual health and that is to me proof that you have an eyes wide-open precious relationship with God.

In most religious groups we can find a few whom it is obvious that the spirit of God is really working with. Oddly, my experience is that it proves to be the most hated groups where one finds the most obviously spirit led in greater abundance. And I would suppose that is because the resentment of them by the many gives them a more complete trial by fire.

I in fact intend to relocate from where I presently live (being as I cannot drive for health reasons) so that I can get nearer to a meeting place of one of those more hated groups so that I can make it to share in their gatherings.

Buzz_B · Feb 24, 2018

corinth77777 said:
I don't have the wisdom you do..but willing to learn from you.....
But I am called the eccentric in my family as well....but now it's not negative to me...

I don't have the wisdom; God does. I am just privileged in that he shares his wisdom with me. And it seems you have that same connection through love and faith that I do. So it is not that you do not have it as I do. You may not have been as long at using it and perfecting your use of it. But you definitely have it as much as I do.

corinth77777 · Feb 24, 2018

Buzz_B said:
Yes, there is no doubt in my mind that you have been established in spiritual health and that is to me proof that you have an eyes wide-open precious relationship with God.

In most religious groups we can find a few whom it is obvious that the spirit of God is really working with. Oddly, my experience is that it proves to be the most hated groups where one finds the most obviously spirit led in greater abundance. And I would suppose that is because the resentment of them of the may gives them a more complete trial by fire.

I in fact intend to relocate from where I presently live (being as I cannot drive for health reasons) so that I can get nearer to a meeting place of one of those more hated groups so that I can make it to share in their gatherings.

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

corinth77777 · Feb 24, 2018

Buzz_B said:
I don't have the wisdom; God does. I am just privileged in that he shares his wisdom with me. And it seems you have that same connection through love and faith that I do. So it is not that you do not have it as I do. You may not have been as long at using it and perfecting your use of it. But you definitely have it as much as I do.

Sounds like Paul..not I but the Christ that lives in me. Believers can't take credit for anything... Amen....understood

Buzz_B · Feb 24, 2018

corinth77777 said:
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

I wasn't sure whether to agree or just issue an informative. I got yelled at earlier by another poster for agreeing with a Scripture quote, LOL.

But I have become convinced the text you just quoted is a powerful proof that one does well not to ignore.

It stands to reason that God's true spirit led children will have a place of their own somewhere to gather and encourage each other. For that oneness of spirit necessary to that is sure lacking most elsewhere.

corinth77777 · Feb 24, 2018

Buzz_B said:
I wasn't sure whether to agree or just issue an informative. I got yelled at earlier by another poster for agreeing with a Scripture quote, LOL.

But I have become convinced the text you just quoted is a powerful proof that one does well not to ignore.

Reminds me somewhat of the story of Cain and Able...

Buzz_B · Feb 24, 2018

corinth77777 said:
Reminds me somewhat of the story of Cain and Able...

It is the war between the ones born of the spirit and the ones born only of the flesh.

Galatians 4:26-29 .........But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

That seed of the serpent fighting against the seed of the heavenly woman as spoken of at Genesis 3:14-15 and carried forward as a theme through-out the Scriptures.

That is an interesting study to do. It can be said that it was the ones born of the flesh who crucified Jesus who was born of the spirit. That war between the seed of the woman being attacked by the seed of the serpent can be seen all through the Scriptures.

corinth77777 · Feb 24, 2018

Buzz_B said:
Only when one analyses it as written in the English using English grammar rules. That is what leads you astray. You cannot force the English grammar onto what was originally written in the Koine' Greek. You must go back to the Greek text and use the Greek grammar rules to judge how the English should be interpreted. For English does not match precisely to the Greek as you are trying to force it to do.

Educate yourself in the Greek. In the Greek it is a continuous action verb being expressed as beginning in the present and continuing the saving action forward.

I for the life of me cannot understand why you guys comfort yourselves in an "I agree", "Like", "Winner", or "Informative" button, when the fact is that when you are wrong it does not matter if a billion others are as deceived as you are; It does not make you right.

Care to educate yourselves for real, instead of just pretending.

And care to understand what Paul was referring to at 2 Corinthians 12:9 rather than just twisting to use as support for whatever you desire to use it for.

Paul was speaking in context of his inadequacies being perfected to endurance. And this is what we are also told elsewhere is the benefit of trial, the perfecting of faith.

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

I started a post on Ephesians2;8 and haven't went back to it yet.
A point I hope to make: is.....this is how we are saved today, now as we are living.
As starting at 1 Peter 3:21....by the resurrection of Jesus. Living, moving, walking in His life. A life that has conquered death. This is our being delivered, or finding a place of protection or refuge.
Acting in righteousness...concentrating with good intention on what is pure, lovely, and good....

corinth77777 · Feb 24, 2018

Buzz_B said:
It is the war between the ones born of the spirit and the ones born only of the flesh.

Galatians 4:26-29 .........But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

That seed of the serpent fighting against the seed of the heavenly woman as spoken of at Genesis 3:14-15 and carried forward as a theme through-out the Scriptures.

That is an interesting study to do. It can be said that it was the ones born of the flesh who crucified Jesus who was born of the spirit. That war between the seed of the woman being attacked by the seed of the serpent can be seen all through the Scriptures.

Hopefully you can enlighten us on this...

Buzz_B · Feb 24, 2018

corinth77777 said:
I started a post on Ephesians2;8 and haven't went back to it yet.
A point I hope to make: is.....this is how we are saved today, now as we are living.
As starting at 1 Peter 3:21....by the resurrection of Jesus. Living, moving, walking in His life. A life that has conquered death. This is our being delivered, or finding a place of protection or refuge.
Acting in righteousness...concentrating with intention on what is pure, lovely, and good....

Yes, for that verse of Peter is another which gets wrested even as do many of Paul's comments.

Many see that part, "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh", and they assume Peter has told them that putting away the filth of the flesh is not important to our salvation.

What he really said is that by the being forgiven of our past sins and our now putting away of the filth of the flesh in following Christ, that is what gives us that good conscience and that good conscience is what really saves us. We no longer have to be like worried children, "Did I do this wrong?", always having to be assured that our Father yet loves us. We are free to be obedient children with joy in our hearts born by how perfectly our Father loves us. And we do not need to worry that every little stumble will cost us the love of our Father. But that is only true when we are living as God's son like Jesus.

Deuteronomy 32:5 yet holds true for those who do not make a genuine effort to live as did Jesus, as a faithful Son.

corinth77777 · Feb 24, 2018

Buzz_B said:
Yes, for that verse of Peter is another which gets wrested even as do many of Paul's comments.

Many see that part, "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh", and they assume Peter has told them that putting away the filth of the flesh is not important to our salvation.

What he really said is that by the being forgiven of our past sins and our now putting away of the filth of the flesh in following Christ, that is what gives us that good conscience and that good conscience is what really saves us. We no longer have to be like worried children, "Did I do this wrong?", always having to be assured that our Father yet loves us. We are free to be obedient children with joy in our hearts born by how perfectly our Father loves us. And we do not need to worry that every little stumble will cost us the love of our Father. But that is only true when we are living as God's son like Jesus.

Deuteronomy 32:5 yet holds true for those who do not make a genuine effort to live as did Jesus, as a faithful Son.

I thought the filth of the flesh was about ritual washings.
But yet I understand: First make the inside clean and the the outside will be clean as well.
I told my son you cannot walk in both directions at one time. Focus on the Spirit with intent to follow or the flesh.....

Buzz_B · Feb 24, 2018

corinth77777 said:
Hopefully you can enlighten us on this...

God does the enlightening, but I get what you mean.

There have been many variations of that subject for as long as I can remember. Some I have listened to taught that not all of Cain's offspring were destroyed by the flood. They could not see that the power to be a son of the serpent or a son of God is the implanted word. So it is all spiritual.

John 1:12-13 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

How did Jesus give them that power to become sons of God?

John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Those words of God, having the power of God's spirit and wisdom, when written to our hearts promote our love and faith to grow stronger so that we begin truly looking to God and listening to him and obeying him as a true child does a Father whom it loves and reverences. Thus we prove ourselves sons of our Father in heaven by our loyal obedience and respect of him and our willingness, even eagerness, to receive not just his spoiling of us but his correction of us.

Notice the importance of that obedience in proving we are truly God's children:

Matthew 5:44-45 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

If we do not listen and respond to God's instruction and discipline of us we cannot really be his children:

Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

This is the main part of what is first necessary to see before we can understand any more about that subject of being born of the seed of the serpent (a child of Satan even if we do not know it) or being born of the seed of God (a genuine child of God and not just one pretending to be who goes about as if God owes it to them that they be his child).

Just look at that war between the seed of the serpent and the seed of God going on in John 8.

Buzz_B · Feb 24, 2018

corinth77777 said:
I thought the filth of the flesh was about ritual washings.
But yet I understand: First make the inside clean and the the outside will be clean as well.
I told my son you cannot walk in both directions at one time. Focus on the Spirit with intent to follow or the flesh.....

Under the Old Law the washings of purification were conducted in an order which portrayed this, yes, but the point is that we must first clean up our hearts, for it is the reasoning of our hearts that moves us to act either godly or ungodly.

Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure [of the heart] bringeth forth evil things.

Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

This is because we are like those vessels used in God's temple. And we can be filled with good things or with bad things. It is up to us to choose to love and be filled with the good things of God and hate those bad things of the devil. And then it continues to be up to us to maintain those good things by loyally remaining rooted in Christ so as to keep feeding on God's goodness.

In knowing and being obedient to doing this we are enabled to have that good conscience which cements us to God and assures our salvation.

If I seem at times to get a bit excited, this is why. I cry inside at seeing this hidden from people by the ways the many are representing the subjects of the free gift and salvation. It tears my heart out. Not for myself, but for them and those who are blinded along with them by their flawed presentations of these most important subjects. I sorrow that any of them might be lost. That is the bitter part of the sweet as honey in the mouth but biitter to the stomach spoken of at Revelation 10:9-10

Buzz_B · Feb 24, 2018

corinth77777,

Remember what I said in post 581 about in the Greek of 2 Corinthians 12:9 it is the continuous action verb translated by the present tense English?

I just checked Westcott-Hort's Greek Interlinear, and their direct rendering agrees with my assessment of the Greek used in that text:

2 Corinthians 12:9
kai eireeken moi arkei soi hee
AND HE HAS SAID TO ME IS SUFFICIENT TO YOU THE
2532 2064_5 1473_4 0714 4771_2 3588
charis mou hee gar dunamis en astheneia
UNDESERVED KINDNESS OF ME; THE FOR POWER IN WEAKNESS
5485 1473_2 3588 1063 1411 1722 0769
teleitai heedista oun mallon
IS BEING FINISHED. MOST GLADLY THEREFORE RATHER
5055 2234 3767 3123
kaucheesomai en tais astheneiais hina
I SHALL BE BOASTING IN THE WEAKNESSES, IN ORDER THAT
2744 1722 3588 0769 2443
episkeenwsee ep eme hee dunamis tou christou
MIGHT PITCH TENT UPON ME THE POWER OF THE CHRIST.
1981 1909 1473_5 3588 1411 3588 5547

I was not aware of that at the time. But it supports my evaluation of the Greek text for that verse.

The Westcott-Hort Greek Interlinear is downloadable free from off of the web in pdf form:

http://www.westcotthort.com/books/Westcott_Hort_Interlinear.pdf

I should take time to explain this subject a bit clearer, for I know that those who do not fully understand will just call Westcott-Hort unreliable. In the past, I have experience some that do claim that. Because they do not understand, Westcott-Hort has to be wrong. So I promise to seek the best way to explain this so as to assist in understanding it. After all, I cannot blame anyone for not desiring to trust the work of any other man. We are all a bit disillusioned from the many times our trust in other men has failed us. I promise to work on a more detailed explanation so you will no longer have to depend upon mine or another human's word for it.

If you are a sinner, you are NOT saved by grace!

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