If you are a sinner, you are NOT saved by grace!

I just heard on the news that the president has not said he would consider banning assault rifles but he does want to explore putting guns in the hands of our children's teachers. They just voted down a ban on assault weapons in the Senate or Congress, I forget which, since that recent school shooting. And that despite polls showing that close to 75% of Americans would be OK with banning them.

It is very evident that sound thinking ability is lacking in this world. We have moved from a spell of finding some teachers guilty of abusing their responsibility over our children to now giving them guns.

It makes my stomach hurt.

[/QUOTE]

Buzz_B said:

I just heard on the news that the president has not said he would consider banning assault rifles but he does want to explore putting guns in the hands of our children's teachers. They just voted down a ban on assault weapons in the Senate or Congress, I forget which, since that recent school shooting. And that despite polls showing that close to 75% of Americans would be OK with banning them.

It is very evident that sound thinking ability is lacking in this world. We have moved from a spell of finding some teachers guilty of abusing their responsibility over our children to now giving them guns.

It makes my stomach hurt.

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Smh

Buzz_B said:

Are we playing a mind game in what they claim?

Consider the following example:

A rich man who really needed nothing from anyone saw a poor man who could scarcely afford the food to keep his and his family's bodies alive.

The rich man said in his heart, I feel compassion for this man and I know he has nothing with which he can pay me for the things he needs but I desire to give those things to him. But I do not want to just hand them to him so that he comes to expect charity, for charity too must be offered voluntarily and not because he comes to expect it, else my charity is no longer charity, but my debt as if I owed him these things.

So the rich man sends a messenger to the poor man and tells the poor man I have these things that I ask you to do to show you have respect and love toward me and then I will open my hand to satisfy all of your needs. And I will continue to satisfy all of your needs if you keep confirming your respect and love for me by continuing to do the things I requested of you.

When that poor man does the things the rich man required him to do did he really earn all or even any of the things the rich man would do in return?

Toss that around in your mind and your heart and decide what the true answer would be.

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If He does it out of gratitude, or being appreciative He doesn't earn it, but he still put in effort. Which on another hand may create habits that lead to maturity.

corinth77777 said:

Do you know how christ is in this world?
He is alive and at work...and

So what's your answer

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The answer is love is the perfection, the outcome of a perfect faith.

klutedavid said:

Ephesians 3:12
in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.

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Kjv reads "the faith of Him" and what type of faith did He have? A faith that worked through love?....for He obeyed His Father even onto death.
1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.



16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Edit
Question: has God's love been perfected in you?
If it is then how? OBEDIENCE

Buzz_B said:

2 Corinthians 3:18 and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. [YLT]

The New Creation is that completed transformation we see spoken about above.

What confuses us is what was said, here in the KJV and many other translations:

2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." [KJV]

But notice it here in the BBE:

2 Corinthians 5:17 So if any man is in Christ, he is in a new world: the old things have come to an end; they have truly become new. [BBE]

The word translated as "creature", is G2937 - ktisis - from 2936; original formation (properly, the act; by implication, the thing, literally or figuratively): KJV -- building, creation, creature, ordinance.

From G2936 - ktizo - probably akin to 2932 (through the idea of proprietorship of the manufacturer); to fabricate, i.e. found (form originally): KJV -- create, Creator, make.

So the better translation in that text is, "new creation." And there are more than a few Bible translations which do translate it, "new creation."

That verse is easy to draw the wrong conclusion from as it is actually speaking of the old being gone that the work of the creating is now able to be taking place.

It is a continuous action which has a beginning and works toward an end goal of completeness.

We must live as best we can like anything we desire to be else we never perfect it in us. That is true of being successful at anything we choose to be in life. If I desire to be a well seasoned skilled carpenter I have to live as a carpenter for some time to reach that goal.

Similarly, that new creation. We must begin to live as that new creation or we will never perfect it. And what a waste of God's spirit which he generously gives to help us that would be.

Edit: Let me clarify. Christ is the actual new creation for now in that he is our replacement for Adam. As all was being done in Adam, now all is being done in Christ. He is the primary new creation. We are to be about "putting on Christ." That makes us like the apprentice carpenter. Not a full fledged carpenter as yet but aspiring to become a full fledged carpenter. We are a part of and aspiring to be completed as that new creation in Christ.

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you confused me...with the edit..maybe because it's bed time..lol...

klutedavid said:

The answer is love is the perfection, the outcome of a perfect faith.

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I am not sure what you mean, but I agree that all we do are motived first by God's love expressed toward us and then in appreciation our love directed back toward him, matter not what the good work is which we find necessary to prove that love.

I say that because when we do a search of all of the texts in the NT which use the word, love, no contest, hands down the majority of them use the Greek word, agapao.

Where as agape' is used as sometimes a noun denoting the character trait and sometimes an adjective demoting a quality of godly affection we are to have, agapao is an action verb which must be shown through good works. Agapao is how agape' becomes evident. That is why we see that agapao is used far more often than is agape' in the NT.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love (agape') as one to another.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth (agapao) me: and he that loveth (agapao) me shall be loved (agapao) of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:24 He that loveth (agapao) me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Notice that it is the action verb, agapao, used here, as follows:

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love (agapao) the brethren. He that loveth (agapao) not his brother abideth in death.

One of the big helps I have found in my studies is that I always take time to look up and compare all occurrences of these key words we build doctrine from off of, and then carefully discern their meaning as used in the Bible. For I have found that to depend on other men to tell you what they mean very often gets one led astray.

And it is really enjoyable doing that sort of in depth study of the important words. I don't think there was ever even one time that I did not come out from that study with a much better understanding. And it gives all that much more opportunity to commune with God through his spirit. That in itself makes it a joy.

1stcenturylady said:

Yes, but they are automatically cleansed by the blood of Jesus.

1 John 1:7
"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

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This verse doesn't say all sin is automatically cleansed by the blood of Christ. Only two verses later, John explains that it is those sins that are confessed that receive forgiveness. The blood of Christ has the potential to cleanse us from any sin and all sin but only when they are confessed.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The word "all" appears in this verse, too, in reference to sin (aka. "unrighteousness"), but as John clarifies, forgiveness of all unrighteousness is contingent upon confession.

1stcenturylady said:

Walking in the Spirit is key. And these unintentional, even unknown sins are the sins that we have an Advocate for in 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

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We have, in Christ, an Advocate with the Father, but this verse says nothing about receiving forgiveness for sins committed in ignorance.

1stcenturylady said:

As you see no repentance is involved. We were already cleansed of all past heinous sins when we first repented. With the Holy Spirit working through us, we cannot sin willfully.

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None of this is stated in, or follows from, the verses you've offered.

I also know of no place in Scripture where the idea that being indwelt by the Holy Spirit absolutely prevents willful sin. The apostles wrote often to people indwelt by the Spirit - born-again believers - whom they rebuked for their sin, and exhorted to better, holier living. See, for examples, 1 Corinthians 6:1-8; 13-20.

1stcenturylady said:

BTW Jesus is not our advocate for unrepented of willful sins.

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Right. 1 John 1:9.

corinth77777 said:

you confused me...with the edit..maybe because it's bed time..lol...

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The edit helps explain why the BBE saw fit to translate as it did.

2 Corinthians 5:17 So if any man is in Christ, he is in a new world: the old things have come to an end; they have truly become new. (BBE)

The world of Christ. In Christ we are no part of this world:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Buzz_B said:

The edit helps explain why the BBE saw fit to translate as it did.

2 Corinthians 5:17 So if any man is in Christ, he is in a new world: the old things have come to an end; they have truly become new. (BBE)

The world of Christ. In Christ we are no part of this world:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

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Awesome thought...I will look into that

Buzz_B said:

I am not sure what you mean, but I agree that all we do are motived first by God's love expressed toward us and then in appreciation our love directed back toward him, matter not what the good work is which we find necessary to prove that love.

I say that because when we do a search of all of the texts in the NT which use the word, love, no contest, hands down the majority of them use the Greek word, agapao.

Where as agape' is used as sometimes a noun denoting the character trait and sometimes an adjective demoting a quality of godly affection we are to have, agapao is an action verb which must be shown through good works. Agapao is how agape' becomes evident. That is why we see that agapao is used far more often than is agape' in the NT.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love (agape') as one to another.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth (agapao) me: and he that loveth (agapao) me shall be loved (agapao) of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:24 He that loveth (agapao) me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Notice that it is the action verb, agapao, used here, as follows:

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love (agapao) the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

One of the big helps I have found in my studies is that I always take time to look up and compare all occurrences of these key words we build doctrine from off of, and then carefully discern their meaning as used in the Bible. For I have found that to depend on other men to tell you what they mean very often gets one led astray.

And it is really enjoyable doing that sort of in depth study of the important words. I don't think there was ever even one time that I did not come out from that study with a much better understanding. And it gives all that much more opportunity to commune with God through his spirit. That in itself makes it a joy.

Click to expand...

I messed up on my question...so that's why he answered as He did.

I meant to ask and edited and reposted it:

Edit
Question: has God's love been perfected in you?
If it is then how? OBEDIENCE

corinth77777 said:

Question for you....Is loving one another a good deed? Yes......

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Obviously, this was not a question for me since you immediately answered it.

I am not sure what message or doctrine all the bolded words in the passage you quoted are supposed to convey.

corinth77777 said:

So what do you believe it means to abide/live by the spirit? But to obey?

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"Abiding," means "to remain" or "continue in." It does not carry the sense of work, of activity, but of coming to rest. In John 15:5, Christ says,

5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Does a branch quiver with the strain of gripping the trunk of a tree? Does it tremble with the effort of sucking the life-giving sap of the tree into itself? No, it merely remains in connection to the tree and as it does, the sap of the tree flows into it and enlarges the branch and causes it to yield fruit in due season.

Being comes before doing. An apple tree bears apples because it is an apple tree, not in order to be an apple tree. So, too, the born-again believer. They obey God, not in order to be a believer, but because they already are a believer. Abiding in Christ, walking in the Spirit, is a spiritual state of being that gives rise to obedience.

corinth77777 said:

If one must labor to enter His rest, if one must die in order to live and abide in His love, do not these take effort-Work-action?

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The "labor that enters into rest" is a labor of faith, of belief, not of works.

Hebrews 3:19
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:3
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest...

One does not die in order to abide in Christ's love. It is because one abides in his love that one is able to die to oneself. Loving Christ begins as a condition of one's heart. It is out of that heart of love that obedient action is to arise. See 1 Corinthians 13:1-3.

corinth77777 said:

I messed up on my question...so that's why he answered as He did.

I meant to ask and edited and reposted it:

Edit
Question: has God's love been perfected in you?
If it is then how? OBEDIENCE

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Yes, I thought that is what you meant in your post. But my brain is getting fuzzy, too, from being tired. So I had a bit of difficulty understanding what he meant.

Plus, being tired I keep having to backspace and correct typing errors so much that it makes it feel like a real effort to post a response.

Maybe I should listen to what my body is telling me and get off here and go to bed.

Lots of love. Until later!

aiki said:

The "labor that enters into rest" is a labor of faith, of belief, not of works.

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You did so well on your last post! I issued a winner on it. And now you are back to mental glitches.

Understand that God has works for us, also.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

You talk like the word, "works", has suddenly become a taboo. It is only works which originate from our old man that were dead works.

I repeat, it is only works which originate from our old man that were dead works. If you are no longer dead then your works too are no longer dead, for they are all done of God's will and by direction of God's spirit.

That is a Pharisee or Rabbinical idea you are using. nether of which were the result of God's spirit. The idea that God forbid good works during the Sabbath rest was refuted by Jesus. It was about resting from the human toil of the fallen flesh. Not all work.

aiki said:

Obviously, this was not a question for me since you immediately answered it.

I am not sure what message or doctrine all the bolded words in the passage you quoted are supposed to convey.



"Abiding," means "to remain" or "continue in." It does not carry the sense of work, of activity, but of coming to rest. In John 15:5, Christ says,

5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Does a branch quiver with the strain of gripping the trunk of a tree? Does it tremble with the effort of sucking the life-giving sap of the tree into itself? No, it merely remains in connection to the tree and as it does, the sap of the tree flows into it and enlarges the branch and causes it to yield fruit in due season.

Being comes before doing. An apple tree bears apples because it is an apple tree, not in order to be an apple tree. So, too, the born-again believer. They obey God, not in order to be a believer, but because they already are a believer. Abiding in Christ, walking in the Spirit, is a spiritual state of being that gives rise to obedience.




The "labor that enters into rest" is a labor of faith, of belief, not of works.

Hebrews 3:19
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:3
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest...

One does not die in order to abide in Christ's love. It is because one abides in his love that one is able to die to oneself. Loving Christ begins as a condition of one's heart. It is out of that heart of love that obedient action is to arise. See 1 Corinthians 13:1-3.

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Did you know the fruit of the spirit is faith or faithfulness?
Did you know that the faith that saves is a faith that works?
Faith is not merely mental,
The faith that works acts on the mental.
Therefore faith itself is active

Are the fruits of the spirit works?

I asked 3 questions....and I didn't answer.
Nite

aiki said:

This verse doesn't say all sin is automatically cleansed by the blood of Christ. Only two verses later, John explains that it is those sins that are confessed that receive forgiveness. The blood of Christ has the potential to cleanse us from any sin and all sin but only when they are confessed.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The word "all" appears in this verse, too, in reference to sin (aka. "unrighteousness"), but as John clarifies, forgiveness of all unrighteousness is contingent upon confession.



We have, in Christ, an Advocate with the Father, but this verse says nothing about receiving forgiveness for sins committed in ignorance.



None of this is stated in, or follows from, the verses you've offered.

I also know of no place in Scripture where the idea that being indwelt by the Holy Spirit absolutely prevents willful sin. The apostles wrote often to people indwelt by the Spirit - born-again believers - whom they rebuked for their sin, and exhorted to better, holier living. See, for examples, 1 Corinthians 6:1-8; 13-20.



Right. 1 John 1:9.

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Hi Aiki

1 John 1:9 is when you BECOME a Christian, at which time you are then dead to sin, and are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, thus when you walk in the Spirit, you are not going to be committing any willful, or known to be sin, sins. They would be unknown sins, or unintentional sins. Because you don't know about them, you can't repent, thus the need for an Advocate. But your heart was for God, not against Him. So whatever sins those would be are automatically cleansed by the blood of Jesus.

I also see that you don't think there is any scripture that says we cannot commit willful sin, but 1 John 3:9 says that. And it is because His seed is in us. Of course, we still have free will, and you can put yourself into a position such as in great temptation where you can quench the Spirit and willfully sin. Those sins MUST be repented of. But don't do anything so foolish as to say something like, "well, I'll get this abortion, and I'll ask God to forgive me later." He won't be mocked. That is not a true repentance.

And for those who fall away like that, there is no guarantee God will even allow them to repent. I know that is strange in light of 1 John 1:9, but that verse is at the beginning to become a Christian, not someone that willfully sins later and tramples on the Blood of Jesus and the Spirit of Grace.

"in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will."

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

“1stcenturylady” said:

1 John 1:9 is when you BECOME a Christian, at which time you are then dead to sin, and are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,

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Not exactly, True discipleship begins by repentance. But then comes baptism. And then it is up to us to rise up turning a new leaf and begin to walk by spirit. That is why Paul gave the counsel, as follows:

Romans 6:3-4 “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

“1stcenturylady” said:

thus when you walk in the Spirit, you are not going to be committing any willful, or known to be sin, sins.

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This is true IF you are really committed to and walking by spirit by the love you have for God in your heart. God does not take you over like a demon possession and make you do anything. Your obedience would mean nothing to him if he did and he would not be able to credit you for good works as Hebrews 6:10 speaks of.

“1stcenturylady” said:

They would be unknown sins, or unintentional sins. Because you don't know about them, you can't repent, thus the need for an Advocate.

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No, we can yet give in to temptations we know are sin because it takes time to retrain our habits. All sin require repentance and therefore all sin requires that Christ act as a mediator (an advocate) between ourselves and God when we yet sin, matter not what kind of sin it is. You are reading into 1 John 2:1 what is not there by claiming this applies only to unknown sins.

“1stcenturylady” said:

But your heart was for God, not against Him.

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Not necessarily. There was a piece of your heart not aligned with God (thus not for God) else you would not have sinned at all. And that applies to any sin a person might commit.

“1stcenturylady” said:

So whatever sins those would be are automatically cleansed by the blood of Jesus.

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Again you err by adding the word, “automatically.” Repentance is always required. You have a tendency to read into Scriptures what is not there. You come up with this idea that you can commit sins without knowing it and you either forget that God is faithful to let your spirit know you have sinned or you lack faith that he will do so. I do not claim to no which one you are doing but you are doing one of those those things. And when one feels that conviction in their spirit they must repent and ask God to help them fully see their err. And God is always willing to do so for the contrite and humble hearted person. Spending more times pondering the Psalms would help you to better understand this.

“1stcenturylady” said:

I also see that you don't think there is any scripture that says we cannot commit willful sin, but 1 John 3:9 says that. And it is because His seed is in us. Of course, we still have free will, and you can put yourself into a position such as in great temptation where you can quench the Spirit and willfully sin. Those sins MUST be repented of. But don't do anything so foolish as to say something like, "well, I'll get this abortion, and I'll ask God to forgive me later." He won't be mocked. That is not a true repentance.

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The seed is God's word which because you love God you do not forget and let part from your heart after he has helped you understand so that by your love he writes it to your heart. But this is the perfect case scenario. John was not telling them that because they were that perfected but because they were not yet that perfected and they needed to know that they must stop excusing themselves to sin. 1 John 3:9 is our target goal.

“1stcenturylady” said:

And for those who fall away like that, there is no guarantee God will even allow them to repent. I know that is strange in light of 1 John 1:9, but that verse is at the beginning to become a Christian, not someone that willfully sins later and tramples on the Blood of Jesus and the Spirit of Grace.

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That is true but there is more to falling away than just lapsing into sin due to yet being imperfect. Falling away involves a pattern letting your heart be drawn away from its love of God. For once that love is gone, your having already tasted the goodness of his loving you and you loving him, once your love is gone it is harder to rekindle than the first time, for you knew what you were rejecting.

“1stcenturylady” said:

"in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will."

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"Perhaps", and that is because to deliberately let our hearts draw away from God risks blasphemy of the holy spirit.

“1stcenturylady” said:

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

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Yes, and he does so by his love and compassion toward you inciting you to love and respect him so that by love you will obey him.

Because the most of you are yet learning to understand Paul you make rather simple mistakes of interpretation when he speaks. And that is why you will never understand Paul correctly until you humble yourselves enough to allow one who does understand Paul quite intimately to teach you. And this does make the job of feeding you spiritually a task that can at times be very painful to the one God has enlightened and sent to you to teach you. That is a part of why the situation exists as shown at Matthew 25:31-36.

Below, you think Paul is speaking about physical death, but he is not. I will try to help you understand, even knowing that will be impossible if you are too full of yourselves to really consider it:

Philippians 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; (KJV)

Now I will restate that verse and reference other of Paul's words from elsewhere in his writings which expose what Paul really has said:

Philippians 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. (For “death worketh in us, but life in you” 2 Corinthians 4:12)
21 For to me to live is [my joy in] Christ, and to die is gain [for you].
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart [this death I live for you], and to be with Christ [risen to life instead of dying daily in his death]; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you [because “by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 1 Corinthians 15:31].
25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; (KJV)

So you see, if we care to examine Paul's words deeply by their spirit, we find that Paul was in no way desirous of physical death. He was not speaking of physical death at all, there. But he was speaking of his bearing the cross of Christ, continually dying with Christ on your behalf that you might come to life and know the fullness of the Joy of life in Christ.

You have many teachers who ought not to be teachers for they have not really the spirit of understanding. And you have patterned yourselves after those unfit teachers which is why most of you would rather teach than listen. You have been rendered unable to even recognize a true spirit led teacher in Christ as you have been programmed to reject anything which does not agree with what your false teachers taught you and never really get onto truly listening and letting yourselves learn.

And you can hate me for telling that, or not. Like Paul, I ,too, die daily for you. Like Paul, death works in me that life might work in you.

Buzz_B said:

Not exactly, True discipleship begins by repentance. But then comes baptism. And then it is up to us to rise up turning a new leaf and begin to walk by spirit. That is why Paul gave the counsel, as follows:

Romans 6:3-4 “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

This is true IF you are really committed to and walking by spirit by the love you have for God in your heart. God does not take you over like a demon possession and make you do anything. Your obedience would mean nothing to him if he did and he would not be able to credit you for good works as Hebrews 6:10 speaks of.

No, we can yet give in to temptations we know are sin because it takes time to retrain our habits. All sin require repentance and therefore all sin requires that Christ act as a mediator (an advocate) between ourselves and God when we yet sin, matter not what kind of sin it is. You are reading into 1 John 2:1 what is not there by claiming this applies only to unknown sins.

Not necessarily. There was a piece of your heart not aligned with God (thus not for God) else you would not have sinned at all. And that applies to any sin a person might commit.

Again you err by adding the word, “automatically.” Repentance is always required. You have a tendency to read into Scriptures what is not there. You come up with this idea that you can commit sins without knowing it and you either forget that God is faithful to let your spirit know you have sinned or you lack faith that he will do so. I do not claim to no which one you are doing but you are doing one of those those things. And when one feels that conviction in their spirit they must repent and ask God to help them fully see their err. And God is always willing to do so for the contrite and humble hearted person. Spending more times pondering the Psalms would help you to better understand this.

The seed is God's word which because you love God you do not forget and let part from your heart after he has helped you understand so that by your love he writes it to your heart. But this is the perfect case scenario. John was not telling them that because they were that perfected but because they were not yet that perfected and they needed to know that they must stop excusing themselves to sin. 1 John 3:9 is our target goal.

That is true but there is more to falling away than just lapsing into sin due to yet being imperfect. Falling away involves a pattern letting your heart be drawn away from its love of God. For once that love is gone, your having already tasted the goodness of his loving you and you loving him, once your love is gone it is harder to rekindle than the first time, for you knew what you were rejecting.

"Perhaps", and that is because to deliberately let our hearts draw away from God risks blasphemy of the holy spirit.

Yes, and he does so by his love and compassion toward you inciting you to love and respect him so that by love you will obey him.

Click to expand...

I didn't read this all..Maybe this questioned

should be answered: Why and How is it that when you walk in the Spirit the blood cleanses us?

And may have a piece of an answer..
But Go back to the earthly tabernacle.
Find out what the priest did with the earthly sacrifices.
Because Jesus now is the better sacrifice, the better priest, the better everything.

I'm going to give a quick piece of my thought..then get ready for work.

First look up the definition from scripture of eternal life.
I believe to know God and Jesus is to have both the body and spirit in alignment.
In Christ...meaning a mind set on what is spiriual with maybe the intent to act upon...Is what it means to walk. Thai is when the blood is applied. For it is the inside that makes the outside clean., when the actions of the body follow you know you have peace with God, you are not just obeying Christ but keeping the law through Him. "So the if you sin" I believe is refering to habit of the flesh..or the mind. Not the sinneth[or continual sin] of those who do not belong, having not the Spirit of Christ.

corinth77777 said:

I didn't read this all..Maybe this questioned

should be answered: Why and How is it that when you walk in the Spirit the blood cleanses us?

And may have a piece of an answer..
But Go back to the earthly tabernacle.
Find out what the priest did with the earthly sacrifices.
Because Jesus now is the better sacrifice, the better priest, the better everything.

I'm going to give a quick piece of my thought..then get ready for work.

First look up the definition from scripture of eternal life.
I believe to know God and Jesus is to have both the body and spirit in alignment.
In Christ...meaning a mind set on what is spiriual with maybe the intent to act upon...Is what it means to walk. Thai is when the blood is applied. For it is the inside that makes the outside clean., when the actions of the body follow you know you have peace with God, you are not just obeying Christ but keeping the law through Him. "So the if you sin" I believe is refering to habit of the flesh..or the mind. Not the sinneth[or continual sin] of those who do not belong, having not the Spirit of Christ.

Click to expand...

The problem we see is that there is a popular movement to making everything mystical, which is why a Christian, if he is wise, does not want to base their beliefs on the non-spiritual works of things like the Babylonian Talmud which is filled with ungodly mystics.

One would think that the church would have sense enough to know that the covenant ended with the Jews because of their lack of having a heart of understanding. But instead, the church has had a record of running to the Jewish reference works to seek help in understanding our Holy Scriptures. And since the first century there is sown a seed of deliberate attempt to adulterate the teachings of the Christian church which one is exposed to within those works.

What cleanses us is Jesus' mediation for us between us and God, acting as our high priest.

The blood is figurative of the value of the life that Jesus surrendered to become that high priest for us and the rip in the curtain between the holy compartment and the most holy compartment only gave a limited number priestly class direct access through Jesus, just as pictured by the under-priests of that Levitical priesthood.

But the poor teaching that the many have received by their spiritually bankrupt spiritual leaders (foreshadowed by those bankrupt spiritual leaders of Israel) has caused most all of them to believe that they have direct access to God. And so they do not completely understand Jesus' function as their high priest mediator between themselves and God. They make everyone God's elect when it is only that limited priestly class who are God's elect. That is why Paul died daily but those he served lived in Christ. Paul was that elect priestly class.

It is a lot to unravel in them. Their teachers have hell to pay before God.

So, anyway, yes, you are correct. It is living that life, actually walking after the spirit, being obedient to the word of God which the blood of Christ pictures, which cleanses us of our sins. It is not at all as they think it is. And our requirement of obedience is not what buys it for us as it is something God did not have to offer us, even with good works required. They have been programmed to deceive themselves as I spoke about in post in at least a couple of my previous posts and particularly illustrated in post 500.