If you are a sinner, you are NOT saved by grace!

Buzz_B said:

When I said Baal, that was a glitch. I meant Balaam per a theory developed based off of Revelation 2:14-15. Balaam's sin was certainly not the sin of trying to work ones way to righteousness. There are three groups causing trouble to the church in Pergamos. The synogogue of Satan are thought to be the remaining organized faction of Judaism which Paul once was a member of when he was persecuting the church. And it is thought that these of the synagogue of Satan also devised to corrupt the doctrine of Christ, entering into the sheepfold by climbing up over the wall instead of entering through the door by real faith in Christ who is that door. And so once inside they began to push the works of that Old Law Covenant as necessary to salvation. And Paul in having to speak against their heresy left the untaught and unsteady something to twist in their imaginations so as to think that Paul meant that law is not necessary to salvation. That is in fact exactly what Peter was referring to at 2 Peter 3:15-16 concerning Paul's writings.

This is what 1stcenturylady was referring to earlier, and she was right. I am afraid I confused her, which I regret. I meant only that her using it as evidence that no works are needed is wrong. We cannot get around works without inferring that James was a liar when he wrote: "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" James 2:14

Edit: Not to diminish what you meant but I should have gone back and corrected that error in that second post after having realized it, and I failed to do so.

For me, the toughest part of all of this is seeing that the words behind the words of what so many speak are telling a different story than the one they claim right to. I am becoming increasingly convinced that should God come down from heaven in person to tell them they would yet not listen. They are not willing to see anything but what they have pride in their hearts that they were miraculously enlightened with their understanding. And that makes me mourn for them in my spirit.

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For some reason through your writing I feel that about you. When we begin to love the way Christ loves there is a type of spirit I can relate to or find myself in union with.
We can't build on any foundation but of Christ...and For myself when scrptures or words have really been understood, or looked into that means our thinking has to change as well. I can see the love you display through your writing.
And as I read through these post I can see there is a lot of unraveling that needs to be done....sometimes certain doctrinal traditions have been so embedded in us that it really does take a heart of love to make us see....

aiki said:

Paul, John, and Peter all wrote to people they believed were genuine believers and whom they instructed as such. Were they being presumptuous? I think not. And neither am I.



Well, fortunately, your saying so doesn't make it so.

It's been my experience that often the things we are quickest to point out in others are the things with which we struggle the most ourselves.



See above.

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Have it be to you as you believe that it is. But you are not teaching what Paul, John, and peter taught. However that is your business. I do not intend to entertain petty feuding. And that is all I have ever found communicating with you ends up in. Not only with me, but with others. And if that is not enough for you to rethink your approach to things then I see it as unwise for me to bear with you.

Be at peace and lets see how long you can have conversation with others that don't end up in just putting each other down. I suspect it will be the same old same old. But I hope you prove me wrong.

Edit: I share this from another thread where the poster was arguing that no works are required. He was arguing that James 2:24 does not mean what I said that works are required. This was the response refuting him:

I issued you and 'I Agree' on the point that no one can be saved by works alone. Not on your mistake as to what I imply.

But James clearly has told you that neither is anyone saved by faith apart from works. Whether you wish to agree with him is up to you. That is none of my business. But James did also very clearly say, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17

When we study we need to always remember to ask ourselves not only what did the writer say, but also what did the writer not say.

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Perhaps also you should ask your self if love can be love without love works good toward the object of its affection?

corinth77777 said:

For some reason through your writing I feel that about you. When we begin to love the way Christ loves there is a type of spirit I can relate to or find myself in union with.
We can't build on any foundation but of Christ...and For myself when scrptures or words have really been understood, or looked into that means our thinking has to change as well. I can see the love you display through your writing.
And as I read through these post I can see there is a lot of unraveling that needs to be done....sometimes certain doctrinal traditions have been so embedded in us that it really does take a heart of love to make us see....

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We unfortunately waste the value these sorts of threads could have because there is an obvious lack of that oneness of spirit which prevails instead of the spirit of God which we could expect to find if even just a sizable portion of the whole of those calling themselves Christian here were really being led of God's spirit.

I know of only one person's spirit that produces the seed of such disunity. And Jesus called him the devil.

I truly do believe that, as Genesis 3:14-15 shows, there are two lines of seed. One line of the serpent and one of the woman. I do not believe that woman is Eve. I believe that woman is the Jerusalem above which Paul spoke about at Galatians 4:26. (Though I am in the process of learning to more fully understand it and can see this is a birth which happens after our physical birth which is why the OT speaks of the wicked going soon astray after being born from the physical womb. The seed of the serpent born in their hearts after their physical birth, rather than God's seed. I am learning more about this presently and yet have many of my own questions concerning it which I am carefully studying to resolve. I learned much on it just last night but just enough to know I have more yet to understand.)

But Jesus told us, "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:44-48

Still, as our health fades in and out, or as we grow tired, and for whatever other reasons there may be, we all feel a bit weary and over-pressed by it at times so that it is difficult for us to keep our composure. And it is good to remember when we experience that, that others are experiencing it also. That can explain the appearance of imperfections here and there even in the best of us.

I had spoken in an earlier post about how a preacher had imposed his conscience on me when I was in my early twenties because I thought drinking alcohol was totally sinful. And i spoke about how he overrode what the spirit in me was telling me to convince me to enjoy a drink with him one even at dinner in his home. And I caved and changed my mind about it being so bad. Then later he was one who participated in disciplining me because I proved to have trouble with alcohol and went to access.

My point was purely that when we override other people's consciences in these matters which really are a matter of personal conscience, that we could well be interfering with God's spirit keeping them safe. And we actually become in part responsible for their sin.

But after that post, I later thought about that and realized that could be taken as though I resented that preacher and refused to accept my own responsibility. But that is not the case. That particular man is my dearest and most loved friend today. The ideas I expressed are what I learned from him when sometime later he came to me almost in tears to apologize to me for that evening at dinner and pressing me to go against my conscience. He is the meekest and most humble and loving man I know. I dearly love him and sincerely hope that i can manage to be like him. He has really set the bar quite high. And to know him is to know that. Not that I admire him so much as I admire Christ in him. But as it turned out, both he and I benefited from the experience for two reasons; Our genuine love for God and the Son, and our humility to receive chastening of God's spirit matter not how or who that chastening comes through on its way to us.

So, while these things we go through can be very troublesome, by means of those things God is able to do great things in the hearts of we who truly love him. Nothing is a loss. When we are cemented into Christ by genuine love all things are able to be and are used of God to our good. I suppose that we will soon forget the pain we suffered once we have passed through this and the joy of the precious things God helped us to learn by it will lend to our joy forevermore.

We have that to look forward to. All because of the goodness of our God.

Important edits made. (At least that I see as important. )

Buzz_B said:

But you are not teaching what Paul, John, and peter taught.

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Again, your saying so doesn't make it so. I think I have been quite faithful to what they taught in Scripture.

Buzz_B said:

I do not intend to entertain petty feuding.

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And yet you have been more personal in your criticisms of me than anyone else in this thread.

Buzz_B said:

And that is all I have ever found communicating with you ends up in.

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I know what I believe and why and can defend my views very well. Sometimes, this bothers those who want me to hold different views. And when it does, they often resort to the sort of ad hominem attacks that you've been making.

Buzz_B said:

Not only with me, but with others. And if that is not enough for you to rethink your approach to things then I see it as unwise for me to bear with you.

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It seems the more you contend with me, the more personal the attacks you're making. Perhaps it would be wise, then, to desist.

Buzz_B said:

Edit: I share this from another thread where the poster was arguing that no works are required.

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No works are required to obtain or preserve one's salvation (Eph. 2:8, 9; Tit. 3:5, 6) but they are the inevitable fruit of genuine conversion which is what the apostle James explains.

aiki said:

No works are required to obtain or preserve one's salvation (Eph. 2:8, 9; Tit. 3:5, 6) but they are the inevitable fruit of genuine conversion which is what the apostle James explains.

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Romans 2:14-16 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

All of the fruits of the spirit are regarded as works of the law of God written upon our hearts. Does love require work? If it does exist without work, how will it build anyone up and edify? I quoted the scripture in an earlier post in which Paul says "faith works by love." Galatians 5:6

Faith could not work by love unless love is a work. And so are all of the fruits of the spirit works motivated of that law of God written upon our hearts.

Works: Matthew 22:37-40

Mark 10:17 'And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, ......................................................................
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

And so as I told you before, when one reads the Scriptures like (Eph. 2:8, 9; Tit. 3:5, 6), they must be careful to notice what is said and what is not said, what is meant and what is not meant.

Else they end up contradicting Jesus as you are doing.

Only the doctrine of demons contradict Jesus.

Following Jesus is work.

Walking after the spirit is work.

Professing faith with ones mouth is work.

Loving one another is work.

Forgiving one another is work.

None of the fruits of the spirit have expression without works.

Yet you are claiming that Paul says we need none of those things and blaming Paul when it is you twisting Paul's words. And that despite the fact that Jesus told you plainly what we must do to be saved.

1stcenturylady said:

Well, it seemed to me you were getting the idea - understanding what was sin and who was at fault. Maybe you didn't get the idea, and I was wrong.

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With respect, it's the idea that's wrong.
That would make sin subjective - someone thinks stealing is wrong, someone else doesn't; someone else thinks lying, cheating, gossip etc are wrong, and others don't.
The idea that if it is not sin to me then it isn't sin, is incorrect.

There are reasons behind why some claim that God's spirit in us does it all for us as if we are not responsible to any of it.

We were created to image God. To be reflectors of God. All that it takes for us to make anything our God is to pattern our thinking and our life after it. And there are many things we can pattern ourselves after in this life, all of which have then in effect become as gods to us. That is why we call the human heroes idols. People aspire to be like them; to be the image of them.

And this is true of organizations like the NRA. The NRA rallies men to pattern themselves after NRA thinking. And when men pattern themselves after that organization they make not only the NRA their god but also worship what the NRA worships, the right to the power of guns, which the NRA has been willing to see our children sacrificed to and rationalize their way around it for the sake of protecting their god. They have the god of fortresses or forces as spoken of at Daniel 11:38. That is the god of weaponry and military-like might.

By claiming that God's spirit in us does it all for us men are left to be free to engage in their worship of their false gods; their idols. And by claiming that no works are involved on our part in our being saved they further enable themselves and all who believe them to turn a blind eye toward their worship of their idols and willingly sacrifice our children along with themselves to their gods.

The seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman spoken of at Genesis 3:14-15 is indeed speaking about a competition for our hearts.

aiki said:

It seems to me painfully obvious that no truly born again person would ever live like this. Consequently, your question appears nonsensical.

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To me it does, that's why when Martin Luther said this, I was amazed.

Strong in Him said:

With respect, it's the idea that's wrong.
That would make sin subjective - someone thinks stealing is wrong, someone else doesn't; someone else thinks lying, cheating, gossip etc are wrong, and others don't.
The idea that if it is not sin to me then it isn't sin, is incorrect.

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The point is, would the Holy Spirit lead you to lie or gossip with no conviction of conscience? To a person that does not have the Holy Spirit, it would not be a problem, but someone that does have the Holy Spirit, they just couldn't do it.

Don't you see it is a test of whether you have the Holy Spirit or not. Because if you don't have the Holy Spirit, your conscience is dull. But super-sensitive when you do.

That is what I'm getting at. Nothing at all to do with the law. Though Romans 14 shows it is also knowledge. But the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and will bring you out of darkness on all things.

Buzz_B said:

All of the fruits of the spirit are regarded as works of the law of God written upon our hearts.

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The passage from Romans 2 that you quoted does not state or imply this. The passage also says nothing at all about the fruit of the Spirit.

Buzz_B said:

Does love require work? If it does exist without work, how will it build anyone up and edify? I quoted the scripture in an earlier post in which Paul says "faith works by love." Galatians 5:6

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Yes. I've never indicated that love can be expressed totally apart from deeds. Not sure, then, why you're making the point that you are here...

Buzz_B said:

Faith could not work by love unless love is a work.

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Faith does not "work" only by love. By faith I trust my dentist to fix my teeth, but I don't love my dentist and am not trying to show that I do by having faith in him. By faith, I trust that when I turn the ignition key in the ignition of my car, it will start. But doing so has nothing to do with loving my car or trying to show love to my car. By faith, I entrust a letter to a friend to the federal postal service for delivery, but I don't love the postal service.

It seems to me that what Paul was communicating in Galatians 5:6 was that faith finds its expression, in part, through the love we extend to God, first of all, and then to others. But this isn't to say that faith requires love in order to function or exist. It clearly doesn't, as I've explained above. The NASB clarifies what Paul meant in its rendering of the verse:

Galatians 5:6 (NASB)

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Buzz_B said:

And so are all of the fruits of the spirit works motivated of that law of God written upon our hearts.

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This doesn't follow at all from what you pointed out. In fact, a number of the fruit of the Spirit are not works but attitudes, states of the heart, like joy, and peace, meekness and self-control, out of which corresponding works may arise but which typically exist prior to, and independent of, such works. I have, for example, met believers who were, due to sickness, physically unable to do any sort of work at all, but were still joyful, peaceful, meek and self-controlled.

And the moral law of God written on our hearts does not necessarily and/or always motivate works reflective of the fruit of the Spirit. Often believers act contrary to God's moral law and to the good and right character of the Holy Spirit. This is evident in the frequent reproof, rebuke and exhortations of the New Testament writers to the Early Church believers to whom they wrote.

Buzz_B said:

And so as I told you before, when one reads the Scriptures like (Eph. 2:8, 9; Tit. 3:5, 6), they must be careful to notice what is said and what is not said, what is meant and what is not meant.

Else they end up contradicting Jesus as you are doing.

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I'm not contradicting Jesus at all. This is your spin on what I've written, but there is no actual contradiction whatever.

Buzz_B said:

Only the doctrine of demons contradict Jesus.

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Ah, the final resort of the failed argument: ad hominem and fallacious attempts to poison the well.

Buzz_B said:

Following Jesus is work.

Walking after the spirit is work.

Professing faith with ones mouth is work.

Loving one another is work.

Forgiving one another is work.

None of the fruits of the spirit have expression without works.

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Who said Christian living was without work? I didn't. And, by the way, the last statement in your list above is false. See my earlier comments in this post.

Buzz_B said:

Yet you are claiming that Paul says we need none of those things

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Goodness! Have you actually understood anything that I've written?! I have never once claimed that good works were unnecessary, only that they are unnecessary to obtaining and keeping one's salvation. Are you truly unable to see the distinction?

1stcenturylady said:

To me it does, that's why when Martin Luther said this, I was amazed.

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As has been pointed out to you, his words ought to be taken in their proper context, not artificially extracted from their context and held up as representative of everything he thought and taught. Luther was making a point via argumentum ad absurdum. He certainly didn't believe that a genuinely born-again person would or should live in a constant and extreme degree of sin.

aiki said:

As has been pointed out to you, his words ought to be taken in their proper context, not artificially extracted from their context and held up as representative of everything he thought and taught. Luther was making a point via argumentum ad absurdum. He certainly didn't believe that a genuinely born-again person would or should live in a constant and extreme degree of sin.

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What he was saying is, once saved, nothing, not even these horrible sins, will separate you from God.

That is not what the gospel says.

1stcenturylady said:

What he was saying is, once saved, nothing, not even these horrible sins, will separate you from God.

That is not what the gospel says.

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And divorced from all of the rest of what he thought and taught, you have come to a completely erroneous notion of his views concerning sin and holy Christian living.

It is true that a genuinely born-again person cannot sin their way out of God's love and redemption, but it is also true that a genuinely born-again person would never attempt to do so. Anyone who claims to be a born-again child of God but who lives comfortably in willful, persistent sin demonstrates thereby that their claim of spiritual regeneration is false.

aiki said:

It is true that a genuinely born-again person cannot sin their way out of God's love and redemption

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That is not a Christian.

, but it is also true that a genuinely born-again person would never attempt to do so. Anyone who claims to be a born-again child of God but who lives comfortably in willful, persistent sin demonstrates thereby that their claim of spiritual regeneration is false.

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I agree.

1stcenturylady said:

That is not a Christian.



I agree.

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@aiki We still disagree on the first one, because that is the same as Luther's.

aiki said:

The passage from Romans 2 that you quoted does not state or imply this. The passage also says nothing at all about the fruit of the Spirit.



Yes. I've never indicated that love can be expressed totally apart from deeds. Not sure, then, why you're making the point that you are here...



Faith does not "work" only by love. By faith I trust my dentist to fix my teeth, but I don't love my dentist and am not trying to show that I do by having faith in him. By faith, I trust that when I turn the ignition key in the ignition of my car, it will start. But doing so has nothing to do with loving my car or trying to show love to my car. By faith, I entrust a letter to a friend to the federal postal service for delivery, but I don't love the postal service.

It seems to me that what Paul was communicating in Galatians 5:6 was that faith finds its expression, in part, through the love we extend to God, first of all, and then to others. But this isn't to say that faith requires love in order to function or exist. It clearly doesn't, as I've explained above. The NASB clarifies what Paul meant in its rendering of the verse:

Galatians 5:6 (NASB)

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.



This doesn't follow at all from what you pointed out. In fact, a number of the fruit of the Spirit are not works but attitudes, states of the heart, like joy, and peace, meekness and self-control, out of which corresponding works may arise but which typically exist prior to, and independent of, such works. I have, for example, met believers who were, due to sickness, physically unable to do any sort of work at all, but were still joyful, peaceful, meek and self-controlled.

And the moral law of God written on our hearts does not necessarily and/or always motivate works reflective of the fruit of the Spirit. Often believers act contrary to God's moral law and to the good and right character of the Holy Spirit. This is evident in the frequent reproof, rebuke and exhortations of the New Testament writers to the Early Church believers to whom they wrote.



I'm not contradicting Jesus at all. This is your spin on what I've written, but there is no actual contradiction whatever.



Ah, the final resort of the failed argument: ad hominem and fallacious attempts to poison the well.



Who said Christian living was without work? I didn't. And, by the way, the last statement in your list above is false. See my earlier comments in this post.



Goodness! Have you actually understood anything that I've written?! I have never once claimed that good works were unnecessary, only that they are unnecessary to obtaining and keeping one's salvation. Are you truly unable to see the distinction?

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Show me even one attitude that is not evidenced by a work. I know of none , for an attitude cannot be seen until it begins to work.

Entrusting is a work manifested by the act of handing over.

Keep trying.

I encourage the effort you used in this post.

Keep trying and there is opportunity to get there. Good work,

Buzz_B said:

By claiming that God's spirit in us does it all for us men are left to be free to engage in their worship of their false gods; their idols.

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Nonsense. We can only work out what God has first worked into us. (Philippians 2:12-13) We can only live righteously because God has made it possible for us to do so. (John 15:4-5) This doesn't mean a believer ought to sit on his hands and do nothing, waiting on God to move him about like a puppet. But it does mean that the child of God relies every moment upon the power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13), in humble submission to his will and way (James 4:6-7; 1 Peter 5:6; Romans 12:1), in order to walk with God. Just like a bit of poison added to a cup of pure water, any believer who tries to mix his own effort in with God's power, corrupts the result. God doesn't need us to add our own strength. He is quite able to give us all we need to live righteously in Christ Jesus. It is the believer who is still in the grip of carnal, fleshly Self who tries to do for God rather than letting God do for him.

Buzz_B said:

And by claiming that no works are involved on our part in our being saved they further enable themselves and all who believe them to turn a blind eye toward their worship of their idols and willingly sacrifice our children along with themselves to their gods.

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This is such a silly Strawman. It is the Self-centered, Self-preserving believer who allows fear of lost salvation and the consequent threat of eternal hell to motivate his obedience to God. Scripture is absolutely clear that God does not accept obedience from this sort of selfish, fearful motive. Without a love for God, not fear of hell, motivating a person's obedience to God, what obedience they muster is useless:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 (NASB)
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

Buzz_B said:

The seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman spoken of at Genesis 3:14-15 is indeed speaking about a competition for our hearts.

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The Christian life is always at first a battle over who will rule: God or Self. But Self, aided by the lies of the devil, insinuates itself subtly and deeply into the work of God, seeking to appear pious and holy in so doing, but actually fouling and stunting God's transforming work in the life of the believer. Until a believer understands this, real Christian living cannot occur. Often many years of failure, of inconsistent and morally-compromised living, are required to convince the believer to give up trying to do for God that He might finally do for them.

Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Philippians 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:16
16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,

Jude 1:24-25
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

aiki said:

Nonsense. We can only work out what God has first worked into us. (Philippians 2:12-13) We can only live righteously because God has made it possible for us to do so. (John 15:4-5) This doesn't mean a believer ought to sit on his hands and do nothing, waiting on God to move him about like a puppet. But it does mean that the child of God relies every moment upon the power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13), in humble submission to his will and way (James 4:6-7; 1 Peter 5:6; Romans 12:1), in order to walk with God. Just like a bit of poison added to a cup of pure water, any believer who tries to mix his own effort in with God's power, corrupts the result. God doesn't need us to add our own strength. He is quite able to give us all we need to live righteously in Christ Jesus. It is the believer who is still in the grip of carnal, fleshly Self who tries to do for God rather than letting God do for him.



This is such a silly Strawman. It is the Self-centered, Self-preserving believer who allows fear of lost salvation and the consequent threat of eternal hell to motivate his obedience to God. Scripture is absolutely clear that God does not accept obedience from this sort of selfish, fearful motive. Without a love for God, not fear of hell, motivating a person's obedience to God, what obedience they muster is useless:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 (NASB)
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.



The Christian life is always at first a battle over who will rule: God or Self. But Self, aided by the lies of devil, insinuates itself subtly and deeply into the work of God, seeking to appear pious and holy in so doing, but actually fouling and stunting God's transforming work in the life of the believer. Until a believer understands this, real Christian living cannot occur. Often many years of failure, of inconsistent and morally-compromised living, are required to convince the believer to give up trying to do for God that He might finally do for them.

Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Philippians 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:16
16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,

Jude 1:24-25
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

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This is not open for debate.

It is a warning prophesied of God. And it is for you to accept or reject so as to demonstrate your heart to God.

Accepting and rejecting are works, too. God judges us by our works. He either judges we are righteous as he is righteous by the good works born of him in our heart; or he judges that we are unrighteous as the serpent is unrighteous by the flawed works born of the serpent in our heart.

Buzz_B said:

Show me even one attitude that is not evidenced by a work. I know of none , for an attitude cannot be seen until it begins to work.

Entrusting is a work manifested by the act of handing over.

Keep trying.

I encourage the effort you used in this post.

Keep trying and there is opportunity to get there. Good work,

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*Sigh* Try re-reading my last post. Maybe you'll understand it better the second time 'round.

By the way, adopting a patronizing tone only makes you look obnoxious and nasty.

Buzz_B said:

This is not open to debate.

It was a warning prophesied by holy spirit. It is for you to demonstrate your heart to God by either accepting or rejecting.

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??? What is not open to debate? What is a warning prophesied by the Spirit?