The purpose of Election

FreeGrace2 · Dec 28, 2017

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Another example:

Titus 1:1 PAUL, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness (G1586)

and looking at Strong's:

G1586
ἐκλέγομαι
eklegomai
ek-leg'-om-ahee
Middle voice from G1537 and G3004 (in its primary sense); to select:—make choice, choose (out), chosen.

G138
αἱρέομαι
haireomai
hahee-reh'-om-ahee
Probably akin to G142; to take for oneself, that is, to prefer:—choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate (ἕλλομαι hellomai, hel-lom-ahee), which is otherwise.

Take your pick, they have the same meaning.

Actually, the Greek word for "elect" and "election" is not the same as the simple idea as 'to choose, to pick, to select'.

Are you aware of the fact that:
every election involves a choice, but
most choices do not involve an election.

Why do we call our 4 yr voting for president an 'election'? Because we are choosing someone to SERVE the people.

So, elections involve service, which our presidential and all political elections easily show.

However, your response failed to deal with the REAL point of 2 Thess 2:13.

The verse teaches the actual method or mechanism for whom to save. Which is, by sanctification of the Holy Spirit and belief in the truth.

Maybe this isn't clear to you, but that's what the verse is about.

iow, God CHOSE "sanctification of the Holy Spirit" which is "belief in the truth" as the means for saving people.

What the verse does NOT SAY is that God chose who would believe, which is imbedded in the Calvinist doctrine of election.

God doesn't choose who will believe.
God does choose who will be saved.

These are quite different statements.

God chooses to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21 says so. Directly.

Apologetic_Warrior · Dec 31, 2017

The meaning of election unto service should NOT be applied to every instance where election is found because it is used in different contexts, thus with different meanings.

To illustrate this I will quote from the Dictrionary of Bible Themes...

6638
election

Scripture affirms that God chooses a people as his own, not on account of their numerical strength or moral merits, but on account of his love for them. Election is on the basis of divine grace, not human merit.

6639
election, to salvation

God chooses to bring individuals to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
Election is part of God’s eternal decree
Election is from eternity Eph 1:4 See also 2Th 2:13; 2Ti 1:9

Election is God’s sovereign prerogative Ro 9:15-24; 11:1-6 See also Ex 33:19; Isa 65:1; Jer 18:1-12; Jn 15:16; 17:6; Ro 9:10-13; Eph 2:10

God’s election places individuals within the covenant of grace Ne 9:7-8 See also Ge 15:7-8,18-21; 18:19; Gal 3:29

Election is not on the basis of merit 1Co 1:26-31 See also Dt 7:7-8; 9:4-6; Jas 2:5

God’s election of his people is the foundation of his saving action
Election does not suspend God’s use of the means of salvation 2Th 2:13-14 See also Mt 1:21; Eph 2:8-10; Jas 1:18; 1Pe 1:2

Election works in tandem with the call of the gospel Mt 22:14 See also Ro 8:29-30

Election is evidenced through a positive response to the gospel 1Th 1:4-5 See also Jn 6:37-40

Election is a motive for praise
Ro 11:28-36; Eph 1:3-14 See also 1Th 1:2-4

Election is a source of practical comfort
Ro 8:31-39 See also Jn 10:27-29; 17:2

Election is an incentive for righteous behaviour
Col 3:12-14 See also Jn 15:16-17; Php 2:12-13; 2Th 2:13-15; 2Pe 1:3-11

Election is a stimulus to the preaching of the gospel
2Ti 2:10

6640
election, privileges of

God chose a people to enjoy a unique relationship with him which entailed the privilege of belonging to him, sharing in all his inheritance, serving him, praising him and proclaiming him.

God elected Israel out of all the nations of the world
Dt 7:6 See also Dt 14:1-2; 1Ki 3:8; 1Ch 16:13; Ps 105:6,43; 135:4; Isa 41:8-9; Eze 20:5-6

The election of the nation is anticipated in the election of the patriarchs Dt 4:37-38 See also Dt 10:15; Ac 13:17-19

Election was not based on merit
Dt 7:7-8 See also Dt 9:4-6; Eze 16:1-14

God conferred privileges on the people he elected
Election meant that God dwelled in their midst 2Ch 6:6 See also 1Ki 14:21 pp 2Ch 12:13; 2Ki 21:7 pp 2Ch 33:7; 2Ch 6:34-35; 7:12,16; Ne 1:9; Ps 132:13

Election meant that God showed divine favor Ps 33:12 See also Ps 65:4; 106:4-5; Isa 14:1; 43:1,20; 44:1-5; 45:4; Zec 1:17

God gave responsibilities to the people he elected
Election calls for obedient and holy living Lev 20:26 See also Ex 19:5-6

Election means increased accountability Am 3:2 See also 2Ki 23:26

God’s choice of Israel does not automatically imply election to salvation
Ro 9:6-8 See also Ro 11:7-8

6641
election, responsibilities of

God’s election lays responsibilities upon those who have been chosen. Election to salvation has the natural consequence of election to service.

Election to leadership
Jer 1:5 See also Jdg 13:2-5; Ps 105:26; 106:23

Election to religious service
Dt 21:5 See also Dt 18:3-5; 1Sa 2:27-28; 1Ch 15:2; 2Ch 29:11

Election to build the house of God
Election to build the tabernacle Ex 31:2-5 See also Ex 35:30-33; 31:6-11; 35:34-36:2

Election to build the temple 1Ch 28:6 See also 1Ch 28:10; 29:1

Election of foreign kings as instruments of discipline
Isa 45:1
Cyrus: Isa 44:28; 48:14-15
The king of Assyria: Isa 7:17,20
Nebuchadnezzar: Jer 25:9; 27:6; 43:10

Election to kingship
1Ch 28:4
David: 1Sa 16:1-13; Ps 78:70-71; 89:3-4
1Sa 10:20-24 Saul; 1Ch 28:5-7 Solomon

Election of the Messiah
The OT predicts the coming of a “chosen one” Isa 42:1-7 See also Isa 9:6-7; 49:5-7

The NT identifies Jesus Christ as God’s chosen Messiah Lk 9:35 pp Mt 3:16-17 See also Mt 12:15-21; Isa 42:1-4; 1Pe 1:18-21; 2:4-6

Election to apostleship
Lk 6:13-16 pp Mk 3:14-19 See also Jn 6:70; 13:18; 15:16,19; Ac 1:2,21-26; 9:15-16; 22:14-15; Ro 1:1; 1Co 1:1

Manser, M. H. (2009). Dictionary of Bible Themes: The Accessible and Comprehensive Tool for Topical Studies. London: Martin Manser.

As can be clearly seen from the resource above, the word "election" cannot be interpreted as "unto service" in every instance which it appears.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 31, 2017

Apologetic_Warrior said:
The meaning of election unto service should NOT be applied to every instance where election is found because it is used in different contexts, thus with different meanings.

But every context is about service.

To illustrate this I will quote from the Dictrionary of Bible Themes...
6638
election

Scripture affirms that God chooses a people as his own, not on account of their numerical strength or moral merits, but on account of his love for them. Election is on the basis of divine grace, not human merit.

Yes, He chooses a people as His own, for His service.

6639
election, to salvation

God chooses to bring individuals to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
Election is part of God’s eternal decree
Election is from eternity Eph 1:4 See also 2Th 2:13; 2Ti 1:9

Eph 1:4 isn't about salvation. It clearly says "us" (who are believers, ver 1:19) were chosen to be holy and blameless. This is about service.

2 Thess 2:13 is about the means that God has chosen for salvation: "through faith in the truth".

Interesting that you've cited 2 Tim 1:9. A verse DIRECTLY about service:
He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Election is a stimulus to the preaching of the gospel
2Ti 2:10

In fact, preaching the gospel is service for God. And Paul's election was directly for the purpose of preaching the gospel.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

1 Tim 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

Election to apostleship
Lk 6:13-16 pp Mk 3:14-19 See also Jn 6:70; 13:18; 15:16,19; Ac 1:2,21-26; 9:15-16; 22:14-15; Ro 1:1; 1Co 1:1

I will assume one understands that being chosen/elected to apostleship is DIRECTLY about service.

As can be clearly seen from the resource above, the word "election" cannot be interpreted as "unto service" in every instance which it appears.

I never said the word should be "interpreted as unto service".

I did say that election is about service.

Which your lengthy source did not disprove. Nor did it prove that anyone is elected to salvation.

Apologetic_Warrior · Jan 1, 2018

"We know this because Judas was part of the Twelve, and he was not “chosen.” Jesus said, “I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me’” (John 13:18)."

What can we say about Judas then? Christ called him to be a follower, but he was not chosen in the elect sense?

FreeGrace2 · Jan 1, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
"We know this because Judas was part of the Twelve, and he was not “chosen.” Jesus said, “I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me’” (John 13:18)."

What can we say about Judas then? Christ called him to be a follower, but he was not chosen in the elect sense?

All this is included in the OP. He was chosen for service. What was that service? To betray the Christ.

Some will laugh at this. But they can laugh all they want. But Judas certainly chosen by Jesus. Along with the other 11.

John 6:70 - Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

v.71 - (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

This proves that election is not to salvation.

Apologetic_Warrior · Jan 1, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
All this is included in the OP. He was chosen for service. What was that service? To betray the Christ.

Some will laugh at this. But they can laugh all they want. But Judas certainly chosen by Jesus. Along with the other 11.

John 6:70 - Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

v.71 - (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

This proves that election is not to salvation.

While I agree in that Judas was selected for the service of betraying Christ, it proves a duality in predestination.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 2, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
While I agree in that Judas was selected for the service of betraying Christ, it proves a duality in predestination.

Where is the proof that election is appointment to salvation? I haven't found any.

Apologetic_Warrior · Jan 2, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Where is the proof that election is appointment to salvation? I haven't found any.

And you will not because your presupposed doctrine will not allow for it. Of course this statement can be flipped on anyone and everyone, just as anyone and everyone can make the same statement you made that I am responding to and apply it to almost any doctrine.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 3, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
And you will not because your presupposed doctrine will not allow for it.

No. Because the Bible doesn't allow for it. I've been asking for verses that teach that God elects for salvation, and you've not provided any. Nor has any Calvinist ever provided any. Because none exist.

What does exist is that God elects, appoints for service. Which the OP proved.

So, let me ask a question.

If election to salvation is unconditional, then what's the point of faith? Will you admit that it's just a by-product of election?

iwbswiaihl2 · Jan 9, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible doesn't teach this. The OP gave many examples of who has been elected. Jesus Christ Himself is the Elect One. The nation of Israel is another. Angels are another. Judas is one. So the claim is in error.

There are NO verses that say that salvation is by election. The OP proves that election is for service.

If you disagree, then please address each example given in the OP and prove that the elect in each example was not for service to God, but "unto salvation".

No one will argue that God alone is the One who elects.

No one will argue that all God's choices occurred in eternity past.

No one will argue against the idea that God loves the world, or all of humanity. John 3:16

No one will argue that God doesn't act toward mankind with grace.

Except there are no verses that say that election is "to eternal life".

No one will argue that God makes mistakes and reverses His choices.

Election is not about not perishing. There are no verses to support that claim.

The ONLY way to never perish is to receive eternal life. John 10:28

It seems you either don't understand John 3:16 or you've rejected it.

Points 1,2,7,8,9,10 are incorrect. As shown.

Points 3,4,5,6 are true, regardless of what one thinks about what election is.

Except for #7 you did a good job. Rom 8:29_30 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30.

All things would not be for those who love God if they later got lost would it? Whom He foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, we are now being transformed into His walk,and will be transformed into His likeness(1John3:2-3 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. V30 is all past tense; Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. And He did this before the foundation of the earth was laid. That glorification is getting that incorruptible, glorified body as Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15 isn't it?

FreeGrace2 · Jan 10, 2018

iwbswiaihl said:
Except for #7 you did a good job. Rom 8:29_30 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30.

Could you provide the post # that has my comments being referenced here?

All things would not be for those who love God if they later got lost would it?

Correct. It would not be good for them. And those who have been given eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

Whom He foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, we are now being transformed into His walk,and will be transformed into His likeness(1John3:2-3 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. V30 is all past tense; Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. And He did this before the foundation of the earth was laid. That glorification is getting that incorruptible, glorified body as Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15 isn't it?[/QUOTE]
Correct.

I'm looking forward to seeing the context for why you believe I got "#7" wrong.

iwbswiaihl2 · Jan 10, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Could you provide the post # that has my comments being referenced here?

Correct. It would not be good for them. And those who have been given eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

Whom He foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, we are now being transformed into His walk,and will be transformed into His likeness(1John3:2-3 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. V30 is all past tense; Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. And He did this before the foundation of the earth was laid. That glorification is getting that incorruptible, glorified body as Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15 isn't it?

Correct.

I'm looking forward to seeing the context for why you believe I got "#7" wrong.[/QUOTE]

I do agree with the rest that you say in this post and I was only saying now that I re-read what you say here, the wording was what I disagreed with in #7 above. Sorry about that.

Post #58 the one I replied too, though they were not #, sorry about that, and you may agree with what I am going to say or not, your statement was; "Except there are no verses that say that election is "to eternal life." And the passage in Rom 8:28-29 states the reason I say that #7 was wrong; we(believers) were elected to receive all that this passage and all other passage that show the results of salvation. I think we both agree that even though God knew the names of all who would be saved, He did not elect by name those only who could be saved. The ones that could be saved were those who by faith receive Him as John 1:12 says and we did so because the word of God convicted our hearts of our sin and showed us that God sent His Son into the world to save sinners and we believed it and confessed Him as our Lord and thanked God for saving us by His grace through faith. And we also are acknowledging that it was the word of God empowered by the Holy Spirit which produced the faith in us. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God, and because the word of God does not return to Him void but accomplishes that for which sends it forth, and prospers where He sends it to prosper. And it prospers in the life of those who believe it and obey it, for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good work which He before ordained that we should walk in them. We are not 100% obedient, but speaking for myself and I would think all believers, I want to be 100% obedient, and even if I were, I would still know that my righteousness is the imputed righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ and I claim no merit of my own, but what He has given me, for without Him I could do nothing, it is Him working in me to will and to do of His good pleasure. And by faith I attempt to obey.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 10, 2018

iwbswiaihl said:
I do agree with the rest that you say in this post and I was only saying now that I re-read what you say here, the wording was what I disagreed with in #7 above. Sorry about that.

Post #58 the one I replied too, though they were not #, sorry about that, and you may agree with what I am going to say or not, your statement was; "Except there are no verses that say that election is "to eternal life." And the passage in Rom 8:28-29 states the reason I say that #7 was wrong; we(believers) were elected to receive all that this passage and all other passage that show the results of salvation.

But this passage doesn't contain the word "elect" or "choose". It's about those who are called. That word means "to invite". There is no election in that passage.

I think we both agree that even though God knew the names of all who would be saved, He did not elect by name those only who could be saved.

In fact, election isn't even about salvation. Was Jesus The Chosen (Elect) One for salvation? No. He was elected TO SAVE. This is service.

In fact, Jesus said so. Matt 20:28 - just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

The ones that could be saved were those who by faith receive Him as John 1:12 says and we did so because the word of God convicted our hearts of our sin and showed us that God sent His Son into the world to save sinners and we believed it and confessed Him as our Lord and thanked God for saving us by His grace through faith.

The "ones that could be saved" include everyone, because they Bible makes that point in John 3:16 (whosoever believes...).

For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.

Matt 9:12- On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Are just the elect “sick”?

Luke 19:10 - For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. Are just the elect “lost”?

Luke 4:18 - The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. Are just the elect poor?

1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God. Are just the elect unrighteous?

Rom 5:6 - You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Are just the elect ungodly?

Mark 2:17 - On hearing this, Jesus said to them, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. Are just the elect sinners?

Isa 61:1 - The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

The entire human race is described as sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, and sinners. Every single one of us.

And we also are acknowledging that it was the word of God empowered by the Holy Spirit which produced the faith in us.

I do not agree that the Holy Spirit "produces the faith in us".

The Bible says that man believes from the heart. Not from the Holy Spirit.
Rom 10:9-10

iwbswiaihl2 · Jan 10, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
But this passage doesn't contain the word "elect" or "choose". It's about those who are called. That word means "to invite". There is no election in that passage.

In fact, election isn't even about salvation. Was Jesus The Chosen (Elect) One for salvation? No. He was elected TO SAVE. This is service.

In fact, Jesus said so. Matt 20:28 - just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

The "ones that could be saved" include everyone, because they Bible makes that point in John 3:16 (whosoever believes...).

For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.

Matt 9:12- On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Are just the elect “sick”?

Luke 19:10 - For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. Are just the elect “lost”?

Luke 4:18 - The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. Are just the elect poor?

1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God. Are just the elect unrighteous?

Rom 5:6 - You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Are just the elect ungodly?

Mark 2:17 - On hearing this, Jesus said to them, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. Are just the elect sinners?

Isa 61:1 - The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

The entire human race is described as sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, and sinners. Every single one of us.

I do not agree that the Holy Spirit "produces the faith in us".

The Bible says that man believes from the heart. Not from the Holy Spirit.
Rom 10:9-10

So then you believe that you can do something without Jesus when He said you can do nothing without Me, John 15:5. Phil 2:13 for it is God working in you to will and to do of His good pleasure, this not only is in the believers life but is also the power of God calling one to repent and believe the gospel. That is why it says by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourself, it is a gift of God. That type of free will you are endorsing is not taught in scripture. Man never seek God first, it is Him calling the lost, not the lost(flesh) seeking him by their free will as some describe it. The scripture surely teaches that the word of God is empowered by the Holy Spirit to perform the will of God, that is why it does not return to Him void. It is the Holy Spirit that convict of sin, not man himself. John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. Man does not convict himself of his sin nor his need for a Savior, it is the Holy Spirit through the word of God. That is why faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 10, 2018

iwbswiaihl said:
So then you believe that you can do something without Jesus when He said you can do nothing without Me, John 15:5.

No, I never said anything about being able to "do something without Jesus". In fact, your quite errant opinion about what I believe is rather puzzling, since I've never even suggested such a thing. What led you to this error about what I believe? I Cannot wait to correct it.

Phil 2:13 for it is God working in you to will and to do of His good pleasure, this not only is in the believers life but is also the power of God calling one to repent and believe the gospel. That is why it says by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourself, it is a gift of God.

I certainly believe this.

That type of free will you are endorsing is not taught in scripture.

Since I've not even mentioned "free will", just what "type" am I endorsing??

Man never seek God first, it is Him calling the lost, not the lost(flesh) seeking him by their free will as some describe it.

Of course man never seeks God first. The Bible is clear about the FACT that God pursues mankind. And man responds freely, or rejects freely. That is the issue.

The scripture surely teaches that the word of God is empowered by the Holy Spirit to perform the will of God, that is why it does not return to Him void.

Do you realize that even those who reject His Word outright are fulfilling His Word?

It is the Holy Spirit that convict of sin, not man himself. John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. Man does not convict himself of his sin nor his need for a Savior, it is the Holy Spirit through the word of God. That is why faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

I've never said otherwise.

I am really perplexed about your quite erroneous opinion of my views. Where did they come from? What did I post that led to your assumptions?

As you can see here, I've denied what you've wrongly assumed about my beliefs.

I don't think you have a clue as to what I actually believe. Is it because you've transferred some beliefs of others onto my beliefs?

For example, just because I very strongly believe in eternal security doesn't mean I am in full agreement with Calvinism. That would be a great mistake.

Or, just because I very strongly believe in free will doesn''t mean I am in full agreement with Arminianism. That would be a great mistake.

It seems when I debate with either of these 2 views, the other person always assumes I'm in the other camp. When I'm in neither camp.

So, let's just deal with what I actually post, and not transfer any ideas from any supposed camp.

Thanks.

iwbswiaihl2 · Jan 10, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
No, I never said anything about being able to "do something without Jesus". In fact, your quite errant opinion about what I believe is rather puzzling, since I've never even suggested such a thing. What led you to this error about what I believe? I Cannot wait to correct it.

I certainly believe this.

Since I've not even mentioned "free will", just what "type" am I endorsing??

Of course man never seeks God first. The Bible is clear about the FACT that God pursues mankind. And man responds freely, or rejects freely. That is the issue.

Do you realize that even those who reject His Word outright are fulfilling His Word?

I've never said otherwise.

I am really perplexed about your quite erroneous opinion of my views. Where did they come from? What did I post that led to your assumptions?

As you can see here, I've denied what you've wrongly assumed about my beliefs.

I don't think you have a clue as to what I actually believe. Is it because you've transferred some beliefs of others onto my beliefs?

For example, just because I very strongly believe in eternal security doesn't mean I am in full agreement with Calvinism. That would be a great mistake.

Or, just because I very strongly believe in free will doesn''t mean I am in full agreement with Arminianism. That would be a great mistake.

It seems when I debate with either of these 2 views, the other person always assumes I'm in the other camp. When I'm in neither camp.

So, let's just deal with what I actually post, and not transfer any ideas from any supposed camp.

Thanks.

This is why I stated what I did in my last one;

You said: I do not agree that the Holy Spirit "produces the faith in us".
The Bible says that man believes from the heart. Not from the Holy Spirit.
Rom 10:9-10

This left the impression if the Holy Spirit is not the one that is illuminating the scripture so that you can believe and it came from your heart without you mentioning nothing else why would I not assume it was from your own free will. Furthermore , now you say this;

Of course man never seeks God first. The Bible is clear about the FACT that God pursues mankind. And man responds freely, or rejects freely. That is the issue.

If these are not contradicting statements, I don't know why they wouldn't be! With these comments you make now: Or, just because I very strongly believe in free will doesn''t mean I am in full agreement with Arminianism. That would be a great mistake.

Thanks for replying, my comprehension must be slack, I will be gone for now, have a great day.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 10, 2018

iwbswiaihl said:
This is why I stated what I did in my last one;

You said: I do not agree that the Holy Spirit "produces the faith in us".
The Bible says that man believes from the heart. Not from the Holy Spirit.
Rom 10:9-10

This left the impression if the Holy Spirit is not the one that is illuminating the scripture so that you can believe and it came from your heart without you mentioning nothing else why would I not assume it was from your own free will.

Such a conclusion is simply erroneous. And "producing faith in us" is quite different than the convicting ministry of the Spirit.

btw, when one does believe the gospel, it IS from their own free will.

Do you really believe that it is God who causes one to believe?

If that were true, then God chooses who will believe, which is definitely not taught anywhere in Scripture.

God does choose who to save, but that is far different than choosing who will believe.

In fact, the Bible clearly indicates who God chooses to save:
1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

That's who God chooses to save: believers.

Furthermore , now you say this;

Of course man never seeks God first. The Bible is clear about the FACT that God pursues mankind. And man responds freely, or rejects freely. That is the issue.

If these are not contradicting statements, I don't know why they wouldn't be!

Why would my statements be considered contradictory?

With these comments you make now: Or, just because I very strongly believe in free will doesn''t mean I am in full agreement with Arminianism. That would be a great mistake.

Thanks for replying, my comprehension must be slack, I will be gone for now, have a great day.

So, so is this to say my view is too complicated to figure out?

What is clear from the Bible is that one's salvation is eternally secure, and that man is free to accept or reject God's plan of salvation.

What's contradictory about that?

JM · Jan 13, 2018

see what Apologetic_Warrior

The meaning of election unto service should NOT be applied to every instance where election is found because it is used in different contexts, thus with different meanings.

To illustrate this I will quote from the Dictrionary of Bible Themes...

6638
election

Scripture affirms that God chooses a people as his own, not on account of their numerical strength or moral merits, but on account of his love for them. Election is on the basis of divine grace, not human merit.

6639
election, to salvation

God chooses to bring individuals to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
Election is part of God’s eternal decree
Election is from eternity Eph 1:4 See also 2Th 2:13; 2Ti 1:9

Election is God’s sovereign prerogative Ro 9:15-24; 11:1-6 See also Ex 33:19; Isa 65:1; Jer 18:1-12; Jn 15:16; 17:6; Ro 9:10-13; Eph 2:10

God’s election places individuals within the covenant of grace Ne 9:7-8 See also Ge 15:7-8,18-21; 18:19; Gal 3:29

Election is not on the basis of merit 1Co 1:26-31 See also Dt 7:7-8; 9:4-6; Jas 2:5

God’s election of his people is the foundation of his saving action
Election does not suspend God’s use of the means of salvation 2Th 2:13-14 See also Mt 1:21; Eph 2:8-10; Jas 1:18; 1Pe 1:2

Election works in tandem with the call of the gospel Mt 22:14 See also Ro 8:29-30

Election is evidenced through a positive response to the gospel 1Th 1:4-5 See also Jn 6:37-40

Election is a motive for praise
Ro 11:28-36; Eph 1:3-14 See also 1Th 1:2-4

Election is a source of practical comfort
Ro 8:31-39 See also Jn 10:27-29; 17:2

Election is an incentive for righteous behaviour
Col 3:12-14 See also Jn 15:16-17; Php 2:12-13; 2Th 2:13-15; 2Pe 1:3-11

Election is a stimulus to the preaching of the gospel
2Ti 2:10

6640
election, privileges of

God chose a people to enjoy a unique relationship with him which entailed the privilege of belonging to him, sharing in all his inheritance, serving him, praising him and proclaiming him.

God elected Israel out of all the nations of the world
Dt 7:6 See also Dt 14:1-2; 1Ki 3:8; 1Ch 16:13; Ps 105:6,43; 135:4; Isa 41:8-9; Eze 20:5-6

The election of the nation is anticipated in the election of the patriarchs Dt 4:37-38 See also Dt 10:15; Ac 13:17-19

Election was not based on merit
Dt 7:7-8 See also Dt 9:4-6; Eze 16:1-14

God conferred privileges on the people he elected
Election meant that God dwelled in their midst 2Ch 6:6 See also 1Ki 14:21 pp 2Ch 12:13; 2Ki 21:7 pp 2Ch 33:7; 2Ch 6:34-35; 7:12,16; Ne 1:9; Ps 132:13

Election meant that God showed divine favor Ps 33:12 See also Ps 65:4; 106:4-5; Isa 14:1; 43:1,20; 44:1-5; 45:4; Zec 1:17

God gave responsibilities to the people he elected
Election calls for obedient and holy living Lev 20:26 See also Ex 19:5-6

Election means increased accountability Am 3:2 See also 2Ki 23:26

God’s choice of Israel does not automatically imply election to salvation
Ro 9:6-8 See also Ro 11:7-8

6641
election, responsibilities of

God’s election lays responsibilities upon those who have been chosen. Election to salvation has the natural consequence of election to service.

Election to leadership
Jer 1:5 See also Jdg 13:2-5; Ps 105:26; 106:23

Election to religious service
Dt 21:5 See also Dt 18:3-5; 1Sa 2:27-28; 1Ch 15:2; 2Ch 29:11

Election to build the house of God
Election to build the tabernacle Ex 31:2-5 See also Ex 35:30-33; 31:6-11; 35:34-36:2

Election to build the temple 1Ch 28:6 See also 1Ch 28:10; 29:1

Election of foreign kings as instruments of discipline
Isa 45:1
Cyrus: Isa 44:28; 48:14-15
The king of Assyria: Isa 7:17,20
Nebuchadnezzar: Jer 25:9; 27:6; 43:10

Election to kingship
1Ch 28:4
David: 1Sa 16:1-13; Ps 78:70-71; 89:3-4
1Sa 10:20-24 Saul; 1Ch 28:5-7 Solomon

Election of the Messiah
The OT predicts the coming of a “chosen one” Isa 42:1-7 See also Isa 9:6-7; 49:5-7

The NT identifies Jesus Christ as God’s chosen Messiah Lk 9:35 pp Mt 3:16-17 See also Mt 12:15-21; Isa 42:1-4; 1Pe 1:18-21; 2:4-6

Election to apostleship
Lk 6:13-16 pp Mk 3:14-19 See also Jn 6:70; 13:18; 15:16,19; Ac 1:2,21-26; 9:15-16; 22:14-15; Ro 1:1; 1Co 1:1

Manser, M. H. (2009). Dictionary of Bible Themes: The Accessible and Comprehensive Tool for Topical Studies. London: Martin Manser.

As can be clearly seen from the resource above, the word "election" cannot be interpreted as "unto service" in every instance which it appears.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 13, 2018

JM said:
see what Apologetic_Warrior

The meaning of election unto service should NOT be applied to every instance where election is found because it is used in different contexts, thus with different meanings.

I've never found any verses on election that said one is elected to salvation.

Of course salvation is God's choice. And who does He choose to save? Not the 'elect'. That's just circular talk.

God chooses to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21 clearly means that.

To illustrate this I will quote from the Dictrionary of Bible Themes...
6638
election

Scripture affirms that God chooses a people as his own, not on account of their numerical strength or moral merits, but on account of his love for them. Election is on the basis of divine grace, not human merit.

This says nothing about being chosen (elected) to salvation.

6639
election, to salvation

God chooses to bring individuals to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
Election is part of God’s eternal decree
Election is from eternity Eph 1:4 See also 2Th 2:13; 2Ti 1:9

None of these verses say that God elects to salvation. Eph 1:4 says "God chose us (believers, per 1:19) to be holy and blameless". That's for service.

2 Thess 2:13 is the means by which God has chosen (the Greek word isn't the word for election, which is eklegomai, but hairomai). iow, God chose to save people through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Election is God’s sovereign prerogative Ro 9:15-24; 11:1-6 See also Ex 33:19; Isa 65:1; Jer 18:1-12; Jn 15:16; 17:6; Ro 9:10-13; Eph 2:10

Of course it is, and none of these verses speak of being elected to salvaton.

God’s election places individuals within the covenant of grace Ne 9:7-8 See also Ge 15:7-8,18-21; 18:19; Gal 3:29

Of course it is, and none of these verses speak of being elected to salvation.

Election is not on the basis of merit 1Co 1:26-31 See also Dt 7:7-8; 9:4-6; Jas 2:5[/QUOT]
Correct. God elects ALL believers to be holy and blameless. Service.

God’s election of his people is the foundation of his saving action
Election does not suspend God’s use of the means of salvation 2Th 2:13-14 See also Mt 1:21; Eph 2:8-10; Jas 1:18; 1Pe 1:2

Click to expand...

None of these verses speak of election being the foundation of His saving action. And the second statement doesn't make any sense.

Election works in tandem with the call of the gospel Mt 22:14 See also Ro 8:29-30

Click to expand...

There is nothing in this passage about election. It is about God's call, and predestination.

Election is evidenced through a positive response to the gospel 1Th 1:4-5 See also Jn 6:37-40

Click to expand...

These verses don't even speak of election.

Election is a motive for praise
Ro 11:28-36; Eph 1:3-14 See also 1Th 1:2-4

Click to expand...

All believers should praise God for all His grace, mercy and blessings.

Election is a source of practical comfort
Ro 8:31-39 See also Jn 10:27-29; 17:2

Click to expand...

Please quote which of these verses actually says this.

Election is an incentive for righteous behaviour
Col 3:12-14 See also Jn 15:16-17; Php 2:12-13; 2Th 2:13-15; 2Pe 1:3-11

Election is a stimulus to the preaching of the gospel
2Ti 2:10
6640
election, privileges of
God chose a people to enjoy a unique relationship with him which entailed the privilege of belonging to him, sharing in all his inheritance, serving him, praising him and proclaiming him.
God elected Israel out of all the nations of the world
Dt 7:6 See also Dt 14:1-2; 1Ki 3:8; 1Ch 16:13; Ps 105:6,43; 135:4; Isa 41:8-9; Eze 20:5-6
The election of the nation is anticipated in the election of the patriarchs Dt 4:37-38 See also Dt 10:15; Ac 13:17-19
Election was not based on merit
Dt 7:7-8 See also Dt 9:4-6; Eze 16:1-14

Click to expand...

This is just a repeat. Of course God has chosen (elected) all believers for service.

God conferred privileges on the people he elected
Election meant that God dwelled in their midst 2Ch 6:6 See also 1Ki 14:21 pp 2Ch 12:13; 2Ki 21:7 pp 2Ch 33:7; 2Ch 6:34-35; 7:12,16; Ne 1:9; Ps 132:13

Click to expand...

This doesn't even speak to salvation.

Election meant that God showed divine favor Ps 33:12 See also Ps 65:4; 106:4-5; Isa 14:1; 43:1,20; 44:1-5; 45:4; Zec 1:17

Click to expand...

All of God's actions towards believers shows divine favor.

[QUOTEGod gave responsibilities to the people he elected
Election calls for obedient and holy living Lev 20:26 See also Ex 19:5-6

Click to expand...

Yep. Service.

Election means increased accountability Am 3:2 See also 2Ki 23:26

Click to expand...

Yes. All believers are accountable to God.

God’s choice of Israel does not automatically imply election to salvation
Ro 9:6-8 See also Ro 11:7-8

Click to expand...

Of course not. No example of election implies such.

6641
election, responsibilities of
God’s election lays responsibilities upon those who have been chosen. Election to salvation has the natural consequence of election to service.

Click to expand...

This is just another way of speaking of accountability.

Election to leadership
Jer 1:5 See also Jdg 13:2-5; Ps 105:26; 106:23

Click to expand...

Of course, another example of election to service.

Election to religious service
Dt 21:5 See also Dt 18:3-5; 1Sa 2:27-28; 1Ch 15:2; 2Ch 29:11

Click to expand...

Yes. Election is to service.

Election to build the house of God
Election to build the tabernacle Ex 31:2-5 See also Ex 35:30-33; 31:6-11; 35:34-36:2

Click to expand...

Building is service.

Election to build the temple 1Ch 28:6 See also 1Ch 28:10; 29:1

Click to expand...

More service.

Election of foreign kings as instruments of discipline
Isa 45:1
Cyrus: Isa 44:28; 48:14-15
The king of Assyria: Isa 7:17,20
Nebuchadnezzar: Jer 25:9; 27:6; 43:10

Click to expand...

How is this not just another example of service? Yes, God did use foreign kings to discipline Israel. Again, service.

Election to kingship
1Ch 28:4
David: 1Sa 16:1-13; Ps 78:70-71; 89:3-4
1Sa 10:20-24 Saul; 1Ch 28:5-7 Solomon

Click to expand...

More service.

Election of the Messiah
The OT predicts the coming of a “chosen one” Isa 42:1-7 See also Isa 9:6-7; 49:5-7

Click to expand...

How can anyone not see service in this one? And don't forget Matt 20:28 - just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

The NT identifies Jesus Christ as God’s chosen Messiah Lk 9:35 pp Mt 3:16-17 See also Mt 12:15-21; Isa 42:1-4; 1Pe 1:18-21; 2:4-6

Click to expand...

Yes, chosen (elected) to serve.

Election to apostleship
Lk 6:13-16 pp Mk 3:14-19 See also Jn 6:70; 13:18; 15:16,19; Ac 1:2,21-26; 9:15-16; 22:14-15; Ro 1:1; 1Co 1:1

Click to expand...

Yep. Chosen for service.

As can be clearly seen from the resource above, the word "election" cannot be interpreted as "unto service" in every instance which it appears.

Click to expand...

I believe your list of "election to..." supports the OP quite well.

Apologetic_Warrior · Jan 14, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I've never found any verses on election that said one is elected to salvation.

In his letter to the Romans Paul wrote, Romans 11:5

New International Version
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

New Living Translation
It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israel have remained faithful because of God's grace--his undeserved kindness in choosing them.

English Standard Version
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

Berean Study Bible
In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Berean Literal Bible
So then also, in the present time, there has been a remnant according to the election of grace.

New American Standard Bible
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.

King James Bible
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
In the same way, then, there is also at the present time a remnant chosen by grace.

International Standard Version
So it is at the present time: there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

NET Bible
So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

New Heart English Bible
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
In the same way also at this time there is a remnant left in The Election of grace.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
So, as there were then, there are now a few left that God has chosen by his kindness.

New American Standard 1977
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’sgracious choice.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Even so then at this present time also, there is a remnant by the gracious election of God.

King James 2000 Bible
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

American King James Version
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

American Standard Version
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Even so then at this present time also, there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace.

Darby Bible Translation
Thus, then, in the present time also there has been a remnant according to election of grace.

English Revised Version
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Webster's Bible Translation
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Weymouth New Testament
In the same way also at the present time there has come to be a remnant whom God in His grace has selected.

World English Bible
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Young's Literal Translation
So then also in the present time a remnant according to the choice of grace there hath been;

What is salvation if not an election of grace?

According to Paul in his letter to the Ephesians...

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast."

[Staff edit].

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