My Thoughts on the Book of James

Halbhh

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QUOTE="Halbhh, post: 71861420, member: 375234"]hah, sorry, you asked a question!? Well, I usually point to the wiki on dating Mark, trying to avoid using a site that would only give one view or just one school of thought.
Gospel of Mark - Wikipedia

While we can get some individual(s) to point to either an earlier or a later time, I want to know instead, since this dating based on various indications, what a consensus view is. Sort of like if I wanted to learn about some early period in American history, I'd want not just one viewpoint, but several to put together
.[/QUOTE
============================
For most things (if not everything) on earth,
society "consensus" view is not just distorted, but opposed to the truth, according to all Scripture and observing most all history to see.

Yes, but trying to merely date (only the somewhat trivial question of this year or that year, or these few years, or those few years) the mere time of when Mark was written down more exactly, not in any way said in scripture, just a mere dating, one can fall back on just trying to compare various estimates. It's not like we are trying to figure out a actually crucial question like "And who is my neighbor?" (something that really does matter profoundly for us), which is addressed in scripture.
 
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Halbhh

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My response was to the person who said they believed James was penned AFTER 70AD. I don't know why you're talking to me about the Gospel of Mark. As I said, I tend to hold to the entire NT Canon being completed prior to 70 AD.

Sorry. It's only as a possible help for a later moment in time, just possibly. That you may find out some gospels were written after 70AD. This should not matter though, and I pointed out why it will not matter above. That's all. Sorry to distract you from some more cogent issue at hand to you.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Yes, but trying to merely date (only the somewhat trivial question of this year or that year, or these few years, or those few years) the mere time of when Mark was written down more exactly, not in any way said in scripture, just a mere dating, one can fall back on just trying to compare various estimates. It's not like we are trying to figure out a actually crucial question like "And who is my neighbor?" (something that really does matter profoundly for us), which is addressed in scripture.
Other questions like this, seemingly trivial, have had world-changing grievous results for many centuries and many generations,
perhaps not alone by itself , but with the other points that are associated with it....

like for instance the infamous "," (comma) that changes the entire meaning of the thief on the cross to something completely in error and contrary to all Scripture, but is accept by most society without even a second thought....

or .... (others ) ....

or .... the dates wrongly attribute to some of the writings that distort (wittingly or unwittingly) whether the prophesy of the destruction of Jerusalem was just that, or if it was written AFTER the destruction...

or .... worse example of all,

multitudes being deceived by being taught that the new life , the new creation, the power to escape sin and have perfect victory over the devil by the blood of the LAMB and the word of our testimony ,
is not (the errorists say) available until AFTER this life ...

Timing in that case is fatal for those who draw back from doing what is right, who do not keep seeking YHWH'S KINGDOM ....

and many, many of the errors alone not much, but are compounded thus one upon another with many others...
and taught as truth , deceiving the audience always....
 
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Halbhh

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Other questions like this, seemingly trivial, have had world-changing grievous results for many centuries and many generations,
perhaps not alone by itself , but with the other points that are associated with it....

like for instance the infamous "," (comma) that changes the entire meaning of the thief on the cross to something completely in error and contrary to all Scripture, but is accept by most society without even a second thought....

or .... (others ) ....

or .... the dates wrongly attribute to some of the writings that distort (wittingly or unwittingly) whether the prophesy of the destruction of Jerusalem was just that, or if it was written AFTER the destruction...

or .... worse example of all,

multitudes being deceived by being taught that the new life , the new creation, the power to escape sin and have perfect victory over the devil by the blood of the LAMB and the word of our testimony ,
is not (the errorists say) available until AFTER this life ...

Timing in that case is fatal for those who draw back from doing what is right, who do not keep seeking YHWH'S KINGDOM ....

and many, many of the errors alone not much, but are compounded thus one upon another with many others...
and taught as truth , deceiving the audience always....

Indeed some things matter greatly.

Not here, but elsewhere, I've had to at times battle such statements like that gospels were written for instance "more than 100 years after Christ" and other such untrue 'facts' intentionally meant to attack faith, from people trying to paint the gospels as made up, etc.. Therefore getting better supported estimates of dating can sometimes help some people. Perhaps here it's not needed, but to me it's quite meaningful that the consensus estimate (or toss the word 'consensus' if you have a problem with it, fine) is that Mark was written down at a time frame that would mean that some eye witnesses to Christ were still alive, and others only very shortly passed on. This information could help some that are seeking and haven't yet found, protecting them from deceptions meant to dissuade them from Christ.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Perhaps here it's not needed, but to me it's quite meaningful that the consensus estimate (or toss the word 'consensus' if you have a problem with it, fine) is that Mark was written down at a time frame that would mean that some eye witnesses to Christ were still alive, and others only very shortly passed on. This information could help some that are seeking and haven't yet found, protecting them from deceptions meant to dissuade them from Christ.
Enjoy and hold to and always seek and always tell the truth.

Since the consensus is notoriously untrue, unreliable, unfaithful, and opposed to God, and opposed to Scripture, and harmful (death dealing/ pernicious),

even if the consensus ever gets anything apparently right - still do not look to the consensus as any kind of guide. It is wrong and dangerous, often fatal (to souls and to bodies and to families and to faith)....

As YHWH says clearly : Trust YHWH.
He never disappoints anyone who puts their whole-hearted trust in Him and relies on Him all the time.
 
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Halbhh

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Enjoy and hold to and always seek and always tell the truth.

Since the consensus is notoriously untrue, unreliable, unfaithful, and opposed to God, and opposed to Scripture, and harmful (death dealing/ pernicious),

even if the consensus ever gets anything apparently right - still do not look to the consensus as any kind of guide. It is wrong and dangerous, often fatal (to souls and to bodies and to families and to faith)....

As YHWH says clearly : Trust YHWH.
He never disappoints anyone who puts their whole-hearted trust in Him and relies on Him all the time.

Ah, yes indeed the consensus is too often wrong, and we can't simply presume something is true because there is a consensus. Quite right. Happy to tell you that would not be a mistake I might make even 30 years ago, much less today.

We should say simply there is no correct such generalization about the consensus view. Neither that it is always right, nor that it is always wrong. Neither.

But what does matter about the dating of Mark? It matters later in time on the internet when people encounter flat statements like I referenced above, trying to suggest the gospels were made up long after Christ, out of whole cloth, and using fake dating like a trick, a slight of hand, to slip in, to try to kill faith. Let's inoculate against that.

....ah....a good thing to remember though: the only effective inoculation against the enemy is that of Matthew 7:24-27.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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QUOTE="Halbhh, post: 71861843, member: 375234"]But what does matter about the dating of Mark? It matters later in time on the internet when people encounter flat statements like I referenced above, trying to suggest the gospels were made up long after Christ, out of whole cloth, and using fake dating like a trick, a slight of hand, to slip in, to try to kill faith. Let's inoculate against that.[/QUOTE

I think yes, we agree, to be able to show people what is TRUTH, verified, proven, to always encourage and to strength their faith as YHWH'S WORD always says to do (do what is best for everyone, all the time)...

The methods/ devices/ means used might be widely different, YHWH Willing,
and always DO what YHWH says even when people everywhere say it is IMPOSSIBLE ! ! ! (such error!)
Or more to the point here, even though people everywhere promote error without even knowing it;

So
"Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it."

Then also from James: (not 'inoculate' but much better I think ) ;
James 1:5

AMPC
If any of you is deficient in wisdom, let him ask of the giving God [Who gives] to everyone liberally and ungrudgingly, without reproaching or faultfinding, and it will be given him.

KJ21
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him.

ASV
But if any of you lacketh wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all liberally and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

AMP
If any of you lacks wisdom [to guide him through a decision or circumstance], he is to ask of [our benevolent] God, who gives to everyone generously and without rebuke or blame, and it will be given to him.
 
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Halbhh

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QUOTE="Halbhh, post: 71861843, member: 375234"]But what does matter about the dating of Mark? It matters later in time on the internet when people encounter flat statements like I referenced above, trying to suggest the gospels were made up long after Christ, out of whole cloth, and using fake dating like a trick, a slight of hand, to slip in, to try to kill faith. Let's inoculate against that.[/QUOTE

I think yes, we agree, to be able to show people what is TRUTH, verified, proven, to always encourage and to strength their faith as YHWH'S WORD always says to do (do what is best for everyone, all the time)...

The methods/ devices/ means used might be widely different, YHWH Willing,
and always DO what YHWH says even when people everywhere say it is IMPOSSIBLE ! ! ! (such error!)
Or more to the point here, even though people everywhere promote error without even knowing it;

So
"Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it."

Then also from James: (not 'inoculate' but much better I think ) ;
James 1:5

AMPC
If any of you is deficient in wisdom, let him ask of the giving God [Who gives] to everyone liberally and ungrudgingly, without reproaching or faultfinding, and it will be given him.

KJ21
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him.

ASV
But if any of you lacketh wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all liberally and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

AMP
If any of you lacks wisdom [to guide him through a decision or circumstance], he is to ask of [our benevolent] God, who gives to everyone generously and without rebuke or blame, and it will be given to him.

Wonderfully, we can ask for exactly that with faith, and it will be given.
 
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Soyeong

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James makes it clear that the book is written to the twelve tribes in dispersion after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Therefore, does it make sense that possibly parts of the letter are written to the church and parts (a majority) is written to unregenerated Jews?

The Greek word "ekklesia" is translated as "assembly" or "church" and is used many times in the Septuagint to refer to the assembly of Israel in the wilderness, so the church has always been the gathering of God's chosen people. In Exodus 12:38, there was a mixed multitude that went up with Israel, so wherever you find God's people, you will also find Gentiles who have affiliated themselves with the God of Israel, and James is no different. James was martyred around 62 AD according to Josephus, so it would have rather difficult to have written it after the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. In Acts 21:20, it praised God for the tens of thousands of Jews who were coming to faith and becoming zealous for the Law, and when they went home, they would be scattered among the nations, so James 1:1 does not refer to the destruction of the temple.
 
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mark kennedy

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James is dealing with the same problem Paul was in 1 Cor. 11, the rich were mistreating the poor. When he talks about works he is simply describing the fruit of the Holy Spirit and that saving faith results in the believer loving other believers as Christ loved them. It may not be easy sometimes but it is necessarily a priority in the Christian walk. Is it too much of God to ask us to love one another? He doesn't require oblations or tithes, although sacrificial living and giving to the ministry are certainly marks of Christian service.

Jesus said, Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” (Matt. 11:29,30)
Paul can be even more scathing in Galatians and the early chapter of Romans talking to devotedly pious Jews. You love as you have been loved, you forgive even as you have been forgiven. What are the works James is describing?

Are they not the ones who blaspheme the noble Name by which you have been called? If you really keep the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. (James 2:7-9)
We are saved by grace for good works, not by them. You must be born again and you must bear fruit, God gives you the means through the agency of the Holy Spirit. His yoke is easy and his burden light. God isn't asking anything that he doesn't provide the means for, loving those who are in Christ isn't even a burden, it's one of his greatest gifts.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Doug Melven

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We are saved by Grace alone through faith. And because we have been made alive we can now do the works that God planned for us.
To answer what James was saying.
If a man SAYS "I have faith" but there are no accompanying works does he really have faith.
If you see a person in shabby clothes just get off the bus and he says to you, "I have a million dollars in the bank" do you believe he actually has a million dollars in the bank when there is no evidence to support such a claim.
There is a big difference between someone going around telling people they have faith but no evidence of that faith in there life and someone who is saved but you don't see the works. How soon after someone gets saved should there be works that others can see?
What if a person who all of there lifetime every time something good happened they celebrated by going out and getting rip-roaring drunk, and they get saved and they go out that night and celebrate this good thing like they always have every other time, are they saved? Or do they just have some growing up to do.
 
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mark kennedy

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We are saved by Grace alone through faith. And because we have been made alive we can now do the works that God planned for us.
To answer what James was saying.
If a man SAYS "I have faith" but there are no accompanying works does he really have faith.
If you see a person in shabby clothes just get off the bus and he says to you, "I have a million dollars in the bank" do you believe he actually has a million dollars in the bank when there is no evidence to support such a claim.
There is a big difference between someone going around telling people they have faith but no evidence of that faith in there life and someone who is saved but you don't see the works. How soon after someone gets saved should there be works that others can see?
What if a person who all of there lifetime every time something good happened they celebrated by going out and getting rip-roaring drunk, and they get saved and they go out that night and celebrate this good thing like they always have every other time, are they saved? Or do they just have some growing up to do.
One of the same issues Paul was dealing with in 1 Corinthians 11 was the fact that rich Christians were stuffing their faces and getting drunk while poor Christians went home hungry. James is dealing with the same problem, the rich were mistreating the poor at the agape feasts and James is saying, is this saving faith. We are supposed to be bearing fruit and God will not tolerate Christians mistreating one another like this, ancient Israel didn't escape God's judgment along these lines how do we expect to get a pass.

The real question is what are the works James is referring to?
 
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faroukfarouk

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It's the same thing.
One can't be justified but not saved; or saved but not justified. It kind of shows that we shouldn't use the terms lightly, because there is a lot of Biblical doctrine involved, linking with faith in the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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