LDS For Not Following Joseph Smith?

Peter1000 said:

Because faith in Jesus is not the only thing that the bible tells you a person must do to be saved. Belief and faith in Jesus is just the starting point, not the end point. David Jeremiah, a radio Christian pastor of a program call 'Turning Point', said those exact words. He said that belief and faith in Jesus is just the starting point, not the end point. So, I believe the Mormons have a more complete view of what it takes to be saved. So follow us.

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Do you have a source for what you claim Dr. Jeremiah said? I Googled those "exact words" and did not see the quote come up, nor did they come up on his website. I would not be surprised if you took his words out of context.

Phoebe Ann said:

I believe the Bible unlike Mormons who disregard several verses:

Deuteronomy 4
35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Isaiah 43
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 45
5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isaiah 45
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

On the other hand, Joseph Smith said:

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me.
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 346-347

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And?

RisenInJesus said:

Mormon temples are very unbiblical.

God had one temple, only for Israel, located in Jerusalem. The Mormon church has temples all over the world.

The temple was solely for the presence of God. The people went to the temple to pray to and worship God. They brought their offerings and their sacrificial animals to the temple because that’s where His presence was. But, they worshipped, prayed and sacrificed directly outside the temple, in the courtyards. They were not allowed inside because the temple was reserved exclusively for the presence of God.

Temple marriages for time and eternity, endowments, secret covenants and ceremonies for the dead are exclusively Mormon ideas. Had people attempted such practices in biblical times it most likely would have cost them their lives.

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LDS temples have fonts on the backs of the twelve oxen, that is used for baptism by proxy for the dead. This was designed after the pattern of the sea of Solomon’s temple. However, the Bible tells us that the this was for the priests to wash in (2 Chronicles 4:1-6), not baptizing for the dead.

The Old Covenant with its temple, priesthood and sacrificial system, became obsolete when Christ’s shed blood ratified the New Covenant. At the very moment of His death on the cross the curtain that had partitioned off the Holy of Holies ripped into two, from top to bottom. The sole purpose of the Old Covenant temple was to house the presence of God in the midst of His people. But under the New Covenant the believer himself becomes the temple of God, through the indwelling of God’s Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 3:16, 6:19, Ephesians 2:19-22). It is no longer necessary to have temples made with hands. There is no record of the early church ever building a temple, because they themselves were the temple of God. So the Mormon church with it practice of building temples and practicing various religious rituals is, not only making themselves into some sort of Israel replacement religion, but they are in complete contradiction to the biblical scriptures relative to the purpose of the original temple of God and the fact that a temple is no longer needed.

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Temple marriages for time and eternity, endowments, secret covenants and ceremonies for the dead are exclusively Mormon ideas. Had people attempted such practices in biblical times it most likely would have cost them their lives.

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You have been taught a false idea about these doctrines. Eternal marriage is a biblical concept, because God is eternal in nature and it is God that ordained marriage.
1 Corinthians 11:11
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

Does that sound like a temporary condition. No, what God does shall no man put asunder, and the things God does are eternal in nature. There are other scriptures that eternalizes marriages that are 'in the Lord'.

Ceremonies for the dead are not exclusively Mormon.
1 Corinthians 15:29
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Paul is asking, why are these people baptizing for the dead? Regardless of the reason, they were. Who were these people? Why were they baptizing for the dead if they believed the dead would not rise?? Good question by Paul don't you think. What would Paul have said if these same people did believe that the dead would rise? He would have said blessed are these that baptize for the dead, since the dead will rise. In any case there is biblical evidence for baptizing for the dead?

Endowments and sacred covenants would have been part of the meat that Paul would have given the people had they been receptive to these principles.
1 Corinthians 3:2
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

The people at that time, were not ready for the higher gospel so Paul did not give it to them. Every time he left, they would pull away from even the milk gospel he taught them, so he continually wrote letters and came back and chided them for losing their milky for love, so he was forbidden to give them anything more.

In the dispensation of the fullness of times, these higher endowments and sacred covenants are given and accepted by most LDS. Many, however, will not get ready to receive these ordinances, endowments, and covenants just like in the time of Paul, so they will not receive them and it will be their loss, as time goes forward and they do not keep their second estate.

The temple ceremonies were available to ancient Israel, but as time went on, and the Israelites went further away from God, so did the use of the temple for higher endowments, and covenants. So like I said, there were rooms in Herods temple that scholars no not what they were for. Neither did the priests of that day, for the endowment ceremony was completely lost, so they probably did use them for storage rooms. The restoration of the church in our time, has restored all the higher ceremonies that the Israelites and the NT church rejected. It is to our benefit that the temples exist for as the Lord says, I am the Lord of the living and the dead.

BigDaddy4 said:

Do you have a source for what you claim Dr. Jeremiah said? I Googled those "exact words" and did not see the quote come up, nor did they come up on his website. I would not be surprised if you took his words out of context.

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Look at his 'Turning Point' presentation on Monday 10/2 or Tues 10/3 or Wed. 10/4

Peter1000 said:

Look at his 'Turning Point' presentation on Monday 10/2 or Tues 10/3 or Wed. 10/4

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Actually, you made the claim, so I'll let you back it up. You don't seem so sure of yourself.

Phoebe Ann said:

I believe the Bible unlike Mormons who disregard several verses:

Deuteronomy 4
35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Isaiah 43
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 45
5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isaiah 45
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

On the other hand, Joseph Smith said:

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me.
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 346-347

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That was kind of you to say that Mormons only disregard several verses. Thank you. The question is: How many verses do you disregard??

You cannot argue with JS on his interpretation of this bible sciputure:
John 5:17King James Version (KJV)
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
John 5:19
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 8:28
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 5:21
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
John 5:26
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

These scriptures confirm everything that JS said above. It is considered the meat of the gospel and not the milk. John gave us insights that the other apostles did not, especially about the relationship between the Father and the Son. That the Father did what the Son was doing, is an astounding doctrine that John puts forth right here in the scriptures. And read John 20:17 it really is Mormonism 101. But most mainline Christians would like to rip these scriptures out of the bible.

Again, JS was spot on.

Phoebe Ann said:

David Paul Jeremiah (born February 13, 1941) is a conservative evangelical Christian author, founder of Turning Point Radio and Television Ministries and senior pastor of Shadow Mountain Community Church, a Southern Baptistmegachurch in El Cajon, California, a suburb of San Diego.
David Jeremiah - Wikipedia

"Don't get caught up in the religion of 'anything goes.' Establish your life on the guiding principles of God and His Word."
- David Jeremiah

I agree with that statement. That's why I enjoy studying my Bible.

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The reason he preaches that is because a large segment of mainline Christians believe that freedom from the law of Moses means 'anything goes'. We believe in Jesus and thats all that matters.

David is conservative and if you can see his Turning Point radio program on Monday 10/2 or Tues. 10/3, or Wed. 10/4 you will see his comment that believing in the Savior is the starting point.

BigDaddy4 said:

Actually, you made the claim, so I'll let you back it up. You don't seem so sure of yourself.

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Do as you wish, I heard his radio program, I listen just about every day on my way to work. Can't remember which day he said this, but his discussion that day was on what we do after we have had the baptism of the HS.

Peter1000 said:

You have been taught a false idea about these doctrines. Eternal marriage is a biblical concept, because God is eternal in nature and it is God that ordained marriage.

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I have not been taught any false ideas about the temple or related doctrines. I have been to the Mormon temple, experienced the endowment ceremony and my husband I were married in the temple. We have seen and heard for ourselves the unbiblical, occult practices which take place which are totally opposed to the Bible.

RisenInJesus said:

I have not been taught any false ideas about the temple or related doctrines. I have been to the Mormon temple, experienced the endowment ceremony and my husband I were married in the temple. We have seen and heard for ourselves the unbiblical, occult practices which take place which are totally opposed to the Bible.

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Somebody taught you something besides the temple and related doctrines. These are the false doctrines that I am talking about, that know nothing of temple worship and of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.

The restored gospel, restores what was in other dispensations, it does not strictly have to be in the bible to be a true doctrine. So when you say
unbiblical practices, you are showing your teachings from non-Mormons.

JS never said that what he taught had to be in the bible. When Peter, James, and John, and all of the apostles taught the gospel, there was no bible to see if it lived up to. If it has to be in the bible before you accept it, you will be stuck in the year 50-100ad and you will never move forward. You will be just like the Jews, who are stuck in the year 1400bc. Their religion is dead now, because they have nothing that is for our day, it is all OT stuff.

The Mormon church is a dynamic, moving, viverant church with apostles and prophets and direct revelations from Jesus himself. Do you think Jesus looks into the bible to see if he can reveal something to you. And do you think that if Jesus can't find it in the bible, that he will tell you he can't reveal it to you because it is not clear in the bible. Get with the program. Nonbiblical is not the measuring stick to whether a doctrine is true or not. Some things have been lost, some things were never given because the saints then would not receive it or they would have rejected it as Paul says.

Besides, large portions of the bible are ignored by religions today because the scriptures do not reflect their particular agenda, so they are ignored.

The bible is not the measure. Jesus Christ is the measure and he will reveal to his prophets and apostles what he will regardless of whether it is in the bible or not.

Accult practices are done in caves and groves by a small group of people that keep their ceremonies secret and often include murder and sexual deviancy.
That is not am honest description of what the Mormon church's memberhsip is as there are millions of temple goers, thousands going to the temples every day. Sacred is the word, not secret. You have lost your way.

Peter1000 said:

Accult practices are done in caves and groves by a small group of people that keep their ceremonies secret and often include murder and sexual deviancy.

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Oh, the irony...

The beautiful tract at the west end of the farm is traditionally honored as the Sacred Grove—the place where God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph Smith in spring 1820.

The Sacred Grove

BigDaddy4 said:

Oh, the irony...

The beautiful tract at the west end of the farm is traditionally honored as the Sacred Grove—the place where God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph Smith in spring 1820.

The Sacred Grove

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Yes a sacred grove, I can see the irony. However, a sacred spot on earth where God the Eternal Father and His Son Jesus Christ came and talked with a mortal man is quite different from the meeting place, where a group of hooded, black clad, deviant people come together, usually around a natural phalic feature, with nothing good in mind other than a degenerate practice.

Ironic isn't it that God would use a grove to do the most important work that He has done in 1820 years since the resurrection of His son.

God is full of ironies. Isn't it ironic that God would use the adultress Bathsheba and the adulterer/murderer, David to produce the line of men and women that eventually would bring Jesus Christ into the world.

So we can talk ironies, the bible is full of them.

Phoebe Ann said:

OOPS! Only two of their gods appeared.

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Do you mean that the 3rd God, God the HS was absent?

No, God the HS was in JS to protect him from the power of the Father and the Son, the other 2 Gods that were there.

Peter1000 said:

Yes a sacred grove, I can see the irony. However, a sacred spot on earth where God the Eternal Father and His Son Jesus Christ came and talked with a mortal man is quite different from the meeting place, where a group of hooded, black clad, deviant people come together, usually around a natural phalic feature, with nothing good in mind other than a degenerate practice.

Ironic isn't it that God would use a grove to do the most important work that He has done in 1820 years since the resurrection of His son.

God is full of ironies. Isn't it ironic that God would use the adultress Bathsheba and the adulterer/murderer, David to produce the line of men and women that eventually would bring Jesus Christ into the world.

So we can talk ironies, the bible is full of them.

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God doesn't keep such places as sacred, nor ceremonies secret (lds temple work), nor does He condone murder (lds Mountain Meadows massacre) or sexual deviancy (lds polygamy, some to underage girls).

Glad we got that straight.

Peter1000 said:

Yes a sacred grove, I can see the irony. However, a sacred spot on earth where God the Eternal Father and His Son Jesus Christ came and talked with a mortal man is quite different from the meeting place, where a group of hooded, black clad, deviant people come together, usually around a natural phalic feature, with nothing good in mind other than a degenerate practice.

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You'd think so, but given Joseph Smith's own rampant sexual appetites (including for teenage girls like Helen Mar Kimbell and Nancy Mariah Winchester, both 14 years of age), there is surely some better aspect to focus on to distinguish your group from these others. So maybe Mormons engaged in worship are not hooded (hmm...if only there were some way we could find out...like Mormons not being a bunch of babies about showing their ceremonies to the public!), or gathered around a "natural phallic feature" (again, you could be...in fact, it is not entirely unreasonable to guess that the focus in Mormonism on 'celestial' marriage and baby-making would seem to lend itself more to that than to other symbols), but your founder is a degenerate, so you're fighting an uphill battle by focusing on this.

Ironic isn't it that God would use a grove to do the most important work that He has done in 1820 years since the resurrection of His son.

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That's not ironic at all. False and nauseating in the extreme, but not ironic.

Peter1000 said:

JS never said that what he taught had to be in the bible. When Peter, James, and John, and all of the apostles taught the gospel, there was no bible to see if it lived up to. If it has to be in the bible before you accept it, you will be stuck in the year 50-100ad and you will never move forward. You will be just like the Jews, who are stuck in the year 1400bc. Their religion is dead now, because they have nothing that is for our day, it is all OT stuff.

The Mormon church is a dynamic, moving, viverant church with apostles and prophets and direct revelations from Jesus himself. Do you think Jesus looks into the bible to see if he can reveal something to you. And do you think that if Jesus can't find it in the bible, that he will tell you he can't reveal it to you because it is not clear in the bible. Get with the program. Nonbiblical is not the measuring stick to whether a doctrine is true or not. Some things have been lost, some things were never given because the saints then would not receive it or they would have rejected it as Paul says.

Besides, large portions of the bible are ignored by religions today because the scriptures do not reflect their particular agenda, so they are ignored.

The bible is not the measure. Jesus Christ is the measure and he will reveal to his prophets and apostles what he will regardless of whether it is in the bible or not.

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As far as I am concerned the Bible is the measuring stick and all doctrines or teachings which contradict it are false. The only true apostles are those who lived at the time of Christ and walked with Him or saw Him face to face, as did Paul. These alone Christ commissioned to be apostles and it was their words and letters inspired by God which contain God's complete and sufficient Word... which was once for all delivered to the saints.(Jude 3). All others claiming to be apostles are false apostles/prophets. The true Christian faith is in no need of new revelation because Jesus who is risen and alive is the final revelation and the Word of God is living and powerful.

Peter1000 said:

Accult practices are done in caves and groves by a small group of people that keep their ceremonies secret and often include murder and sexual deviancy.
That is not am honest description of what the Mormon church's memberhsip is as there are millions of temple goers, thousands going to the temples every day. Sacred is the word, not secret. You have lost your way.

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Joseph Smith and his family had a history of involvement with occult practices and using magic seer stones to hunt for buried treasure. There are historical court records of this. Joseph Smith was also a member of Free Masonry in the Nauvoo Lodge. Much of the religious ritual within Mormonism finds its origin in both occultism and Freemasonry, including the temple practices.

There is no way the true God of the Bible would reveal Himself to someone involved with occultism as Joseph Smith. Yet, one who was involved with practices forbidden by God in the biblical scriptures certainly would be a prime target for deception by satan or a demon appearing as an angel of light.

"Joseph's Involvement in Occultism. Joseph Smith, Jr.'s role in the quest for treasure was especially important since he had a seer stone. Joseph would place this small, special rock in his hat then pull the hat up to his face to block out all light. By doing this he claimed he could see supernaturally, and would help those who were digging by locating the place where the treasure was buried and observing the spirits that were guarding it. Joseph Jr., himself admitted to being a money digger, though he said it was never very profitable for him (History of the Church, V. 3, p. 29). He and his father's money digging continued until at least 1826. On March 20th of that year Joseph was arrested, brought before a judge, and charged with being a "glass-looker" and a disorderly person. The laws at that time had what was known as the "Vagrant Act." It defined a disorderly person as one who pretended to have skill in the areas of palmistry, telling fortunes or discovering where lost goods might be found. According to court records Justice Neely determined that Joseph was guilty, though no penalty was administered, quite possibly because this was a first offense (Inventing Mormonism, Marquardt and Walters, SLC: Signature Books, 1994, pp. 74-75).

Occultism and the Start of Mormonism. Shortly after this Joseph discontinued money digging but kept his seer stone. It was with the seer stone that he claimed to both find the plates and later produce the Book of Mormon. This was known by early converts but has since been replaced with later accounts of an angelic visitor. This transition was aided by downplaying the fact that Moroni was a dead Indian warrior, and by referring to him as an angel. Former BYU professor and historian D. Michael Quinn writes:

During this period from 1827 to 1830, Joseph Smith abandoned the company of his former money-digging associates, but continued to use for religious purposes the brown seer stone he had previously employed in the treasure quest. His most intensive and productive use of the seer stone was in the translation of the Book of Mormon. But he also dictated several revelations to his associates through the stone (Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, D. Michael Quinn, Signature Books, SLC, 1987, p. 143.


This fact is supported by LDS author Richard S. Van Wagoner who found,


This stone, still retained by the First Presidency of the LDS Church, was the vehicle through which the golden plates were discovered and the medium through which their interpretation came (Sidney Rigdon: A Portrait of Religious Excess, Signature Books, SLC, 1994, p. 57).

Thus we see that historians have documented a continuity between Joseph's early occultic practices and the origins of Mormonism. This link extends to the development of the LDS Temple ceremony."
Occultic and Masonic Influence in Early Mormonism