Why Republican Ideals Are Not God's Plan

Hank77

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The two birth accounts of Jesus are different in almost every way possible. This is because both writers wanted to make the point that Jesus was "of Nazareth" but they also had to explain how someone from Nazareth came to be born in Bethlehem. So Matthew decided to make Bethlehem the original home of Mary and Joseph and explained how they ended up in Nazareth, while Luke decided to make Nazareth the original hometown and gave them reason to be in Bethlehem for this one occasion. The biggest clue to these differences comes at the end of both stories. In Luke, the census is over so Mary and Joseph simply go to Jerusalem for the circumcision 8 days after Jesus is born. Luke 2:21 They're met by Simeon, there's a short story about Anna, and then they "returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth" in Luke 2:39 This makes sense in this context, because they were simply visiting Bethlehem for the census, it ended, and so they just go home. But in Matthew we're given a tale of Herod wanting to kill Jesus. So after he is visited in his "house" in Bethlehem Matthew 2:11 they are warned to escape, so they fled to Egypt. Matthew 2:14 There's no mention of a trip to Jerusalem because there's obviously no time, and if they went to Jerusalem and came back to Bethlehem it would contradict Luke 2:39 After fleeing to Egypt, we're given an explanation of why they couldn't return to Bethlehem. Matthew 2:22-23 They obviously intended to return home, and verse 23 tells us why they decided to go to Nazareth instead. These are two different tales that don't intersect, and not only do they literally have no parts in common except those necessary for the goal that I explained at the beginning, but they can't possibly both be true
This was so much easier than I thought it would be. :) I hadn't read both accounts for sometime and thought that I had missed something or forgotten something. Jesus is circumcised on the eight day. After 40 days they go to Jerusalem for the purification ceremony. Bethlehem to Jerusalem was about a 6 mile walk.

In my view one of two things could have happened.
1. Luke skips over the interval where they return to Bethlehem and are there for two yrs. and then go to Egypt until Herod's death. He goes directly to them being in Nazareth and moves forward from there.
2. Luke skips over the above yrs. but does give a detail that Matthew doesn't. They did leave Jerusalem and go to Nazareth. I can easily see this as being the case. What new mother doesn't want to show off her new infant to family and friends. She may have especially wanted to see Elizabeth who knew that the child Mary would give birth to was a special child, indeed her Lord. However, this isn't a short walk. It would have been approx. an 80 mile walk or about 5 days. Which means it would be approx. 6 days back to Bethlehem. [I don't think this is the case as they would have needed to get back to Bethlehem for the enrollment.]

So to simply say the Luke and Matthew are a contradiction is not the only feasible explanation.
 
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Allandavid

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I produced eight links to mainstream news sources that state Obama's policy was to allow boys to use girls' locker rooms. You know the truth. If you endorse this policy, then you are complicit in a terrible sin.

Show us the quote....show the quote that says that "girls are forced to shower with boys"....show that, or admit that you are simply scaremongering by promoting falsehoods...
 
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Allandavid

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"DENVER — The Obama administration’s directive Friday on the use of school bathrooms and locker rooms by transgender students intensified the latest fierce battle in the nation’s culture wars, with conservatives calling it an illegal overreach that will put children in danger and advocates for transgender rights hailing it as a breakthrough for civil rights." New York Times May 13, 2016

Solace and Fury as Schools React to Transgender Policy

So, where in that quote does it state (or even suggest) that "girls are forced to shower with boys"..?

It doesn't, does it...? You are spreading lies.
 
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Allandavid

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By endorsing Obama's policy to allow boys to shower with girls at school, you have made yourself complicit with his sin.

1. The policy does NOT permit boys to shower with girls.
2. You have failed yet again to produce a quote about any "forcing"...
 
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The Brown Brink

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That would be completely missing the point of what I said and misrepresenting Republicans. You seem to be more immersed in partisan politics than is healthy.


Yes, I dismiss the Republican ideology as inappropriate for societal living.
It's suited only for prehistoric man.

And I'm afraid you and the child don't know much about the homeless...

I understand why the child doesn't know...
But aren't you a grown up?
Shouldn't you know more about the homeless?
 
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rjs330

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I understand why you don't feel there's a "viable" third party, but what about my other suggestion, changing the party rather than letting it change you? Why are Republicans content to let these immoralities remain? You have yourself admitted to these imperfections, but all I see here is another attempt to defend them rather than a person committed to fixing them.

Number 5:20-22 describe what a couple is to do if they think that the wife has possibly cheated. She drinks a potion made by the priest, and that potion causes her "thighs to rot" in Numbers 5:27 if she has indeed "done trespass against her husband". Do you understand what this old-timey language is describing? She becomes infertile, and if she's carrying a child (the obvious reason that this is done) then that child becomes aborted. Come on, this is really lazy on your part. You didn't even tell me what you thought the passage meant, but instead were just dismissive of it.

While it's true that fertile cells are potential adults, so are unfertilized cells (for example, egg cells lost in a period). But I'm sure you don't feel that a period is "a human death". The place that you draw the line is arbitrary. The question about killing an adult who doesn't feel pain is a good one, and I'd say that the answer is probably "yes" if his or her death doesn't cause someone else pain (remember, abortions are done by parents who don't want the child). You said nothing about miscarriage... did you not read that or simply skip over it because you couldn't argue against it? If you place this value on fertilized cells (and you do), isn't a miscarriage a human death? Is this not carried out or at least allowed to happen by God to this innocent "human life"? God is, by your definition, the most prolific abortionist of all. Please don't ignore this a second time.

Why do you assert that "a rich man is not the one who has the most"? That's literally the definition of rich. I agree with you that the opposite of love of money is contentment, but that's what defines "love of money" as greed. The Republican party clearly supports the "job creators" who weren't satisfied with enough to live on but rather took risks to becomes wealthier than their peers. I understand the logical uses of capitalism, but the bible doesn't support this system, as I've pointed out several times already.

Where do you get your cultural ideas about "turning the other cheek"? This elaboration didn't come from the bible, yet you seem to trust it as if it had. My own understanding came from context -- Matthew 5:44 goes on to say "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you". The reason for "turning the other cheek" isn't judicial economy but rather to "take the high road" over seeking vengeance. This idea also makes sense of "giving to those who ask or borrow" in Matthew 5:42. What does this verse have to do with legal issues? Nothing. It's simply putting others before yourself, acting out of love rather than selfishness, which self-defense doesn't do.

This is not the time or place for discussions about what makes something "unbiased" or credible, but if you felt that Wikipedia was not a trustworthy source, why didn't you look up The Southern Strategy in something that was? It sounds like you just want a reason to dismiss this topic without addressing it, and you're doing that by attacking the source of the argument (ad hominem). Are you going to look this up, or does this topic make you so uncomfortable that you simply won't address it?

You cited several passages about "grace", which is a good way to get to its meaning, but you didn't draw any conclusions from them. Are you arguing that this grace is simply non-inclusive of things that the bible didn't specifically mention? That's an argument of evidence of absence from an absence of evidence. To this specific point, showing grace towards "your neighbor", or simply "people in need", Jesus made this point clear in the parable of the Good Samaritan (which I cited in my original post because it was so relevant). As I've already said, the victim didn't do anything to deserve special treatment, but was treated kindly because the Samaritan was showing the love that Jesus commanded (and as 1 Corinthians 13:5 clarifies, part of love is putting others ahead of yourself). We also see commands to feed the poor in places like Luke 14:13 If the government is "based on the bible" or at least supposed to be, why would any Republican Christian resist making charity a duty of the government? This isn't a Christian ideal, but only a Republican one.

If you don't understand the poor, then please take it from an expert. When people win millions in the lottery but end up in debt, that's not because "throwing money at a problem isn't the solution". Those are examples of people who don't love money. I also don't love money, and would probably end up the same way. If I had money, I'd spend it on the things I want, because that's all that money is good for... it's just a middleman. I wouldn't bother to try to acquire more money with it, or hold onto it for status, though I would like to save some of it as a buffer against future poverty. But do you grasp how much money you save by being wealthy? Taking on debt costs money. Being late for payments costs money. It's a bad cycle. Simply giving a person food only helps them eat another day, but giving them enough money to buy it in bulk, for example, or to buy food that they'll actually eat all of is much better. It's cheaper to cook food, and not having a home means eating out a lot.

You claim that "Republicans give more to charity", but I'm specifically discussing government-endorsed charity. If Republicans are "pro charity" as you believe they are, then why do they fight government charity? I've seen you give several reasons for why you prefer it to come from your pocket, but you understand that many wealthy people simply wouldn't give if they didn't have to, right? They're not all like you. As has been demonstrated so often in the past, programs that depend on public support are so much poorer than government programs for the obvious reason that enforcing donations will get more of them. Are you ignorant of the many claims made by Republicans to demonize the poor? Welfare has become a dirty word, and the receivers of it are "evil", which is very contradictory to how the bible paints the poor.

I am afraid you are the one who doesn't understand the majority of the poor these days. The majority of the poor are poor and remain so for a couple of reasons.

1. They lack the talent or innate skill necessary to obtain jobs that pay more.

2. They make a lot of foolish decisions which range from everything such as drug use, spending money unwisely in a myriad of ways.

4. They are lazy.

3. Circumstances beyond their control such as illness, injury and such.

The vast majority of the poor fall into categories 1-2. The next bunch fall into category 3 and the minority fall into category 4.
 
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Soyeong

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Yes, I dismiss the Republican ideology as inappropriate for societal living.
It's suited only for prehistoric man.

And I'm afraid you and the child don't know much about the homeless...

I understand why the child doesn't know...
But aren't you a grown up?
Shouldn't you know more about the homeless?

You didn't have to go through the effort, but I appreciate you proving me right.
 
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rjs330

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If you genuinely want charity to be "individual" responsibility, then what are you doing to incentivize or enforce this responsibility? Do you care if those individuals actually take responsibility, or do you simply want them to have the freedom to be irresponsible? Libertarians have thought of ways to incentivize such responsibility, and I'm totally okay with that, but Republicans haven't offered anything that I'm aware of. And given that environment, why would we expect charity if there's no incentive or enforcement?

I'm pretty okay with the idea that you don't want to be identified as a "liberal" or "conservative", but you still are one of those things even if you eschew the label. Those labels, like all labels, are simply a shorthand that lets others know where you probably stand on several issues. There are both liberal and conservative Christians, so I think throwing off that label is unhelpful. It is helpful to note that I'm not making an argument against "conservatism", and I don't think it's a bad thing. In fact, I find it to be as necessary as liberalism. But I specifically argued against the Republican party as being un-Christian. It could still be conservative without being immoral.

I don't expect my own liberal ideas to bring about a Utopia ("One Big Happy Family") but let's be careful not to commit a nirvana fallacy -- the world doesn't have to be perfect, just improved. I seek to improve it, even if this will never achieve a goal of perfection. I don't expect "paradise" to reach this goal because I don't believe in paradise, and have been given no reason to believe in it. But this expectation of paradise seems to come with a certain Nihilism that treats the world as simply a doormat that one wipes one's feet on before entering "the real world". I care about the here and now because that's real, to both me and you, and to me it's all we have. I don't want to treat this world with a "cut and run" or "scorched-earth" policy. It matters to me that the future is better, and so I'm investing my efforts into that. Are you? Do you want life to improve? One way to do that, from a Christian standpoint, would be to make the party that you are unwilling to part from a "better" and "more Christian" party by discarding those parts of it that are immoral.
It's not Christian in any sense of scripture to force people to give. Please show me where Jesus or the apostles taught that government should force people in the name of Christ to give to welfare.
 
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Traveling teacher

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While democrats have forced americans since the 1960s to give government welfare to those who refuse to work...

This is the following reaults.....
1. They have caused a breakdown in the family unit by excusing deadbeat dads not to support their families
2. This has caused a dependency of the poor on welfare without training them and has resulted in generational poverty for the last 3 generations
3. Government is 20 trillion in debt
4. 40% of americans donot work amd are supporte by the other 60% to sit around and do nothing
5. Not much diifferent than the failed atate of socialism and communism
6. Those who do not work in the inner cities are corrupted with crime and drug dealling
7. Becuse of this drugs and crime has destroyed the inner cities of Amercia....specifically Chicago, detroit.......
Thes 2 cities and others are heavily owned by democrat and government susidies......

This is why the Bible says he that doesnt work shoudnt eat
2 thesselonians 3:10
 
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The Brown Brink

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If we were a third world country with a significant percentage of our people in abject poverty, we would see some of the breakdowns that third world countries are seeing with their governments and their militaries. We haven't really seen that yet, at least not since we adopted the Constitution. The Depression couldn't take us there. Reconstruction couldn't take us there (and free enterprise lifted us out of it). Republicans don't believe that taxation and entitlements are really "helping your neighbor." Actually helping your neighbor is "helping your neighbor." It's getting involved with your church or your community without sitting back and assuming that the government will just fix it. The more people do that, the less things the government needs to be troubled with fixing.


I never actually realized that Republicans don't think of taxation as being part of "loving their neighbor."

I didn't know that.


My observations have been that Republicans exhibit no feelings of obligation for their neighbor and instead express a real resentment for having to pay taxes at all.

And I don't understand that.

In order for us cantankerous humans to make use of each other, and profit thereby, we have to follow rules, protect each other and get along.
In other words...form a government of some kind and answer to it.

Why is that so hard?
Why don't Republicans see that government is a good thing?
They can use their government taxes to take care of their neighbors, their community, their planet.
They're more likely to succeed themselves, in a cared-for world.

Let me repeat:
They're more likely to succeed themselves, in a cared-for world.

Don't Republicans want to increase the likelihood of their own success?
 
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The Brown Brink

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You didn't have to go through the effort, but I appreciate you proving me right.



Yes, you're right that I'm partisan.

But when you say that you, as a big adult, can't make a child do what you want...
I think you are being insincere.

And...yes, I know...
You disagree.
 
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Hank77

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Your beliefs, based on Clarke's commentary, requires re-writing the bible by taking it as a mistranslation. That is, in itself, an acceptance that the contradictions exist. I never made any claim that the original text of the bible was imperfect, nor could I -- I have no more access to original manuscripts than you do. What I claim is that the bible that you hold in your hands and from which you derive your beliefs is full of contradictions and errors, and is therefore not trustworthy by itself.
I don't use just Clarke's Commentary but search through others as well. I don't know that actual contradictions exist but that there are small mistakes in translations that have occurred over time. I don't know of any Christian that doesn't understand this and that is why we say that we believe that the original texts when written by the original authors were exact and perfectly inspired by God.
Clarke did not write any translation of the Bible.
 
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Hank77

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I know. He obviously couldn't have had a child at the age of 2. But how do you know that either age is accurate, given that the only way to calibrate them is based on other shaky, possibly miscopied information?

Many Christians insist that their bible is completely accurate, until we show them something like this -- then they claim that it's just a copyist error (as if that wasn't a type of error) but that the original text is perfect... but that's a straw-man. I have no idea what the original text says because I have no more access to it than anyone else. My claim is that the bible that you and I hold in our hands is full of contradictions, errors, and mistranslations at best, propaganda and fiction at worst. And it's strange that Christians argue against this, given how easy it is to demonstrate.

And I've had this discussion so many times before, so I know how it ends. I'll argue for something widely-believed among scholars, that 6 of Paul's 19 letters are forgeries. Pseudepigrapha - Wikipedia The Christian first argues that Paul wrote all of them, and then when faced with the huge variance in writing style compared to the complete lack of variance in the canonical epistles, he or she will just claim that Paul simply gave his writer the outline rather than dictation and that writer is responsible for the variance, as if they never took the position in the first place that Paul was the author. And it goes on like this, where they agree more and more with me without admitting that they ever held a different stance, and after the conversation ends, they'll go back to their original stance as if my argument had no impact. If you don't think this happens, you can see it in this very thread with OldWiseGuy. And you'll probably do the same, forgetting that someone showed you a copyist error -- you'll go on to say that the bible that you hold is the perfect word of God and completely infallible. I've seen it so many times already.
Your going to hear approx. the same arguments from all true believers in Yehovah and Yeshua, you just are, so why do you continue with your arguments? What is your goal?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I thought this was your post, and it turned out I was right. You now claim that you know and agree that there are contradictions, and that it's "no biggie", but back here in this post I quoted you only believed in "seeming contradictions" and thought that the parable of the talents couldn't possibly contradict the other parables. I thought perhaps I had conflated two people's arguments, but I was right -- you approached me with the idea that the bible didn't contain contradictions.

Could you please give me a little more respect and admit when I change your mind? You make it sound like I was attacking a straw-man.

What is your definition of a biblical contradiction?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Your beliefs, based on Clarke's commentary, requires re-writing the bible by taking it as a mistranslation. That is, in itself, an acceptance that the contradictions exist. I never made any claim that the original text of the bible was imperfect, nor could I -- I have no more access to original manuscripts than you do. What I claim is that the bible that you hold in your hands and from which you derive your beliefs is full of contradictions and errors, and is therefore not trustworthy by itself.

It's also worth noting that the various scholars who translated the bible worked as hard as they could, applying their expertise, to give you that bible that you hold as close to the original meaning as they could. And yet armchair experts always tell us about how poorly it was done and how the bible should have been translated differently. The reason it's so difficult for translators is because they had no divine help. And they still don't. Clarke doesn't state that, upon wondering what the translation was, he asked God for help and then God told him what was originally intended. That never happens. I wonder why...

The Hebrew allows for a wide variety of translations of a single word, thus translations can be included that aren't the best choice. My favorite example is the word "gave", i.e. Eve "gave" the fruit to Adam and he did eat (KJV). The word should have been translated "put upon" (nagged), but the translators probably didn't want to sleep on the couch for the rest of their lives. :(

This of course would be a "contradiction" as the inference is that Adam assented rather than acquiesced under duress. Thankfully the whole narrative, plus other later scriptures gives a clearer picture of the event. :preach:
 
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Sketcher

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I never actually rea
lized that Republicans don't think of taxation as being part of "loving their neighbor."

I didn't know that.
Now you do. :)

My observations have been that Republicans exhibit no feelings of obligation for their neighbor and instead express a real resentment for having to pay taxes at all.

And I don't understand that.
Well, if you were barely making enough money to get by, and your employer gives you a bonus check, and the government taxed half of that bonus check, you'd be cantankerous about paying taxes too. What Republicans generally stand for on the issue of taxes, is that the tax rate should be lower, and the tax code should be simpler. As people enter into middle class income, more taxes become relevant to them, and the tax rate goes up significantly. It was that way before the Bush tax cuts as well. Democrats defend it. Republicans at least talk about reforming it.

In order for us cantankerous humans to make use of each other, and profit thereby, we have to follow rules, protect each other and get along.
In other words...form a government of some kind and answer to it.

Why is that so hard?
Why don't Republicans see that government is a good thing?
They can use their government taxes to take care of their neighbors, their community, their planet.
They're more likely to succeed themselves, in a cared-for world.

Let me repeat:
They're more likely to succeed themselves, in a cared-for world.

Don't Republicans want to increase the likelihood of their own success?
Republicans do believe in government, just not so much of it that people are conditioned to depend on it and cease to develop themselves, and help others themselves. Cradle-to-grave government care disincentivises people from becoming the best that they can be, and from responsible citizenship. We're capitalists, but we're not anarcho-capitalists.
 
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The Brown Brink

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Now you do. :)


Well, if you were barely making enough money to get by, and your employer gives you a bonus check, and the government taxed half of that bonus check, you'd be cantankerous about paying taxes too. What Republicans generally stand for on the issue of taxes, is that the tax rate should be lower, and the tax code should be simpler. As people enter into middle class income, more taxes become relevant to them, and the tax rate goes up significantly. It was that way before the Bush tax cuts as well. Democrats defend it. Republicans at least talk about reforming it.


Republicans do believe in government, just not so much of it that people are conditioned to depend on it and cease to develop themselves, and help others themselves. Cradle-to-grave government care disincentivises people from becoming the best that they can be, and from responsible citizenship. We're capitalists, but we're not anarcho-capitalists.


Yes, I agree with you about how complicated the tax system is.
And I heard that it's our politicians who keep it complicated.
They deliberately use the promise of tax-cuts to manipulate our vote...and apparently it works so well for them that they ignore the nation's demand to simplify taxes...
Sweet, huh.

If you're barely making enough money to get by, the government isn't supposed to take half of it.
That's detrimental to you and your country, both. Nobody WANTS you to be poor.

But why are you barely making enough money to get by...in a country where education is free?
Why aren't you succeeding?

And if you are succeeding, isn't it because your country is keeping you safe?
Should you keep all your money for yourself, if it's your country that makes it possible for you even to HAVE money, at all? Bigger, smarter, faster or more desperate people than you could come take everything away from you...and if it weren't for your country, they would.
Shouldn't you be grateful to your country for this protection?
Shouldn't you pay taxes for that protection?

And, in Kentucky, it's the Republicans who are disincentivized and live off the government.
They're all around me.
I live in a Republican county.
I've known these Republicans all my life.

I know that the industries nearby beg for employees, but the locals here in this Republican county can't meet the requirements of employment.
Many of them can barely read because they didn't get their free education.
A lot of them are addicted to something...
And a lot of them are resentful of authority and can't follow orders.
So they have babies instead and get their government check.
Around here, that's what Republicans are like.

So I hear Republicans complain about their country...and then I see them use my tax money to have babies.

In Kentucky, it's the Republicans who don't pull their own weight.
They didn't want their free education.
They don't want a job.
But they DO want their country to take care of them.

I don't understand Republicans.
 
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SupernovaK

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This was so much easier than I thought it would be. :) I hadn't read both accounts for sometime and thought that I had missed something or forgotten something. Jesus is circumcised on the eight day. After 40 days they go to Jerusalem for the purification ceremony. Bethlehem to Jerusalem was about a 6 mile walk.

In my view one of two things could have happened.
1. Luke skips over the interval where they return to Bethlehem and are there for two yrs. and then go to Egypt until Herod's death. He goes directly to them being in Nazareth and moves forward from there.
2. Luke skips over the above yrs. but does give a detail that Matthew doesn't. They did leave Jerusalem and go to Nazareth. I can easily see this as being the case. What new mother doesn't want to show off her new infant to family and friends. She may have especially wanted to see Elizabeth who knew that the child Mary would give birth to was a special child, indeed her Lord. However, this isn't a short walk. It would have been approx. an 80 mile walk or about 5 days. Which means it would be approx. 6 days back to Bethlehem. [I don't think this is the case as they would have needed to get back to Bethlehem for the enrollment.]

So to simply say the Luke and Matthew are a contradiction is not the only feasible explanation.

You're still missing details. The end of the Matthew narrative clearly gives an explanation for why they can't return to Jerusalem and why they instead settle in Nazareth. This explanation isn't necessary if Nazareth had ever been their hometown. Also, Luke's narrative about visiting Elizabeth doesn't solve these problems but rather adds a new one -- if John the Baptist was Jesus' age and living in the same area, then how was he not killed in the "massacre of the innocents" when Herod sought to kill Jesus? Almost any answer you can come up with begs the question of why Jesus' family didn't do the same thing.
 
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SupernovaK

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I am afraid you are the one who doesn't understand the majority of the poor these days. The majority of the poor are poor and remain so for a couple of reasons.

1. They lack the talent or innate skill necessary to obtain jobs that pay more.

2. They make a lot of foolish decisions which range from everything such as drug use, spending money unwisely in a myriad of ways.

4. They are lazy.

3. Circumstances beyond their control such as illness, injury and such.

The vast majority of the poor fall into categories 1-2. The next bunch fall into category 3 and the minority fall into category 4.

Do you have anything to add to this discussion aside from disparaging prejudice about poor people? I'd be happy to discuss the root causes of poverty, and they aren't based on stereotypes. But this issue is irrelevant, because you're just re-iterating the belief that the poor aren't "deserving", and God didn't factor that into his commands. In fact, if all of the poor are undeserving as you believe, then commands to give charity to the poor such as in Luke 14:13 prove that God wants you to give to the undeserving, and thus my point is made.
 
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SupernovaK

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It's not Christian in any sense of scripture to force people to give. Please show me where Jesus or the apostles taught that government should force people in the name of Christ to give to welfare.

I'm quite certain that the bible never teaches what a government should have to do, though it does tell you as a citizen to submit to the government because God put it in place. Romans 13:1-3. So if the government is paying for charity, that's what "the powers ordained by god" would have you do, and God wants you to pay the required tax to allow it to do that. Matthew 22:20-22 And since God wants you to give to the poor Proverbs 19:17 Deuteronomy 15:7-11 Luke 3:11 then I imagine he'd want (and you should want) the government to do the same, since it is the moral thing to do. Are those enough biblical citations? Is there a magic number that would actually convince you, or am I wasting my time?
 
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