Critique of Postmillennialism and Amillennialism

Quasar92

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Postmillennialists teach that Christians will create a Golden Age on earth, gradually defeating the forces of evil. They believe they can help usher in a beautiful peaceful world of Christian dominance, and after that—Jesus Christ will return and establish His eternal kingdom. Considering the intense anti-Christian sentiments throughout the world, which continue to increase day by day, perhaps the Postmillennialists should reconsider their theology. Not only is their theory unrealistic and unattainable, it cannot be substantiated with Scripture.

Those who believe in Postmillennialism call themselves Reconstructionists, and also label it Dominion Theology. They generally do not interpret Scripture literally, which means that their interpretation of Scripture is greatly flawed.

Many who adhere to Postmillennialism teachings also accept certain ideas within Preterism, believing that many of the prophecies of the last days have already been fulfilled. The doctrine of Preterism denies the future literal fulfillment of key prophetic Scriptures—the Rapture, the Tribulation and the Lord’s Second Coming. It also rejects a literal millennial kingdom. The belief that Christians will someday establish a theocracy on earth is an inconceivable idea, especially in light of the growing worldwide hatred toward Bible-believing Christianity.

For the last one hundred years the influence of Christians has waned greatly. However, the power of the major false religions (Roman Catholicism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, New Age Spirituality) have increased significantly along with atheism and humanism. The popular accepted “politically correct” religions will merge into a one-world ecumenical religious system led by the False Prophet during the seven-year Tribulation.

The forces of darkness have strengthened their control over nations all throughout the world. A rapid movement in the last century was initiated, consolidating the power of Satan’s henchmen among governments worldwide—through the creation of numerous political and economic organizations. That intense effort is growing stronger in this century with no signs of slowing. A one-world government, economy and religion under the power of Satan is inevitable—just as the Bible teaches (Revelation chapters 13 and 17).

Amillennialism is a erroneous doctrine which denies that there will be a literal Rapture, a literal seven-year Tribulation and a literal millennial kingdom—over which Jesus Christ the Messiah will rule on earth for 1000-years.

Amillennialists teach that the 1000 years cited six times in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number. In the early 5th century, Augustine, a philosopher and theologian, wrote in his book The City of God that the book of Revelation “is a spiritual allegory.” He saw the millennial kingdom as being primarily the reign of Christ in the hearts of the faithful and that Christ’s reign on earth is spiritual in nature.

Roman Catholicism gleaned a great deal from Augustine’s writings even to the point of sometimes being referred to as the “Father of Roman Catholicism.” His contributions to Catholic doctrine include his belief in the necessity of infant baptism, the perpetual virginity of Mary, and the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. All very disturbing blasphemous teachings. The Roman Catholic Church also claims to be the “kingdom of God on earth” and the “new Israel.” [1]

Amillennialism was adopted by the Roman Catholic Church and also by most of the Reformers who did not reject all of the unsound doctrines of the Church of Rome. A few of the early Church fathers of the first and second centuries believed in Amillennialism, but none of the writings of those few men have survived—so there is no definitive record of their beliefs except for references made in the writings of Justin Martyr (100-165 AD).

The vast majority of the early Church fathers taught that there would be a 1000-year millennial kingdom with Jesus at the helm. Only a small number of them rejected a literal kingdom: Clement of Alexandria, Caius, Origen and Dionysius. The latter two are considered to have been heretics. It was not until Augustine (354-430 A.D.) began to write on his views of eschatology that the belief in a spiritual, and not a literal millennial kingdom took hold.

The skewed teaching of Amillennialism does not make sense; it denies the literal fulfillment of Bible prophecy. It is inconceivable that God would fulfill all the prophecies of the Messiah’s First Coming in a literal manner, and then have most of the prophecies of His Second Coming fulfilled in an allegorical (spiritual) manner.

“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever” (Hebrews 13:8).

One must ask who is more trustworthy concerning doctrine—the Roman Catholic Church which teaches Amillennialism and other extra-biblical doctrines, or Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Old Testament prophets, the Apostles and the early Church fathers?

The Reformers held onto Amillenialism when they split from the Roman Catholic Church just as they retained a number of other false doctrines, such as the teaching of purgatory. Amillennialists deny that the Antichrist will be a real man and they deny a literal Tribulation period. They do this by twisting the passage in Daniel that describes the Antichrist and the Tribulation (Daniel 9:25-27).

Amillennialists argue that the “anointed one, the prince” in verse 25 and the “anointed one” in verse 26 is Jesus (which is correct), but say that the “prince” in verse 26 refers to Titus. They also claim that the word “he” in verse 27 is Jesus who made a covenant with Israel at the beginning of His ministry and broke it after 3½ years. They say the “one that maketh desolate” in verse 27 was Titus.

Such an interpretation is clumsy and implausible. It is impossible by all rules of grammar for the word “he” in verse 27 to refer back to the “anointed one” of verses 25 and 26. The “he” in verse 27 can only refer back to the “prince” of verse 26 which clearly states, “the prince that shall come” (Antichrist).

Another insurmountable problem with this interpretation is that Jesus did not make a covenant with Israel when He began His ministry; Titus did not make a covenant with Israel, and neither did anyone else in the first century A.D. The Antichrist (“the man of sin”) who is prophesied to come in the future will make a covenant with Israel and later break it:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God” (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 KJV).

“And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined” (Daniel 9:26 ASV).

“And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate” (Daniel 9:27 ASV).

The Church fathers who taught that there will be a literal millennial kingdom were Clement of Rome, Barnabas, Hermas, Polycarp, Ignatius, Papias, Pothinus, Justin Martyr, Melito, Hegisippus, Tatian, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Apollinaris, Cyprian, Commodian, Nepos, Coracion, Victorinus, Methodius and Lactantius (Chafer, Lewis Sperry, Systematic Theology, Vol. 4, p. 271-274). At the Nicene Council, “318 bishops from all parts of the earth placed themselves on record” in believing in a literal millennial kingdom (Ibid., p. 275).

Additionally, at the Nicene Council, “318 bishops from all parts of the earth placed themselves on record” in believing in a literal millennial kingdom (Ibid., p. 275). The teaching of the Catholic Church on this matter is wrong. The Old Testament prophets, Jesus Christ, the Apostles and the early Church fathers are right that there will be a millennial kingdom.

Postmillennialists and Amillennialists use the same method of study. They insert into the text a meaning that is simply not there. They make the text say what they want it to say, rather than accepting what the text itself says.

Common sense and careful biblical exegesis cannot support a mythical spiritual utopia (an allegorical millennial kingdom), and the other flawed teachings that Postmellinialists and Amillennialists embrace as truth. When the Rapture takes place, those who hold to those positions will be shocked.

By Kit R, Olsen


Quasar92
 

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Postmillennialists teach that Christians will create a Golden Age on earth, gradually defeating the forces of evil. They believe they can help usher in a beautiful peaceful world of Christian dominance, and after that—Jesus Christ will return and establish His eternal kingdom. Considering the intense anti-Christian sentiments throughout the world, which continue to increase day by day, perhaps the Postmillennialists should reconsider their theology. Not only is their theory unrealistic and unattainable, it cannot be substantiated with Scripture.

Those who believe in Postmillennialism call themselves Reconstructionists, and also label it Dominion Theology. They generally do not interpret Scripture literally, which means that their interpretation of Scripture is greatly flawed.

Many who adhere to Postmillennialism teachings also accept certain ideas within Preterism, believing that many of the prophecies of the last days have already been fulfilled. The doctrine of Preterism denies the future literal fulfillment of key prophetic Scriptures—the Rapture, the Tribulation and the Lord’s Second Coming. It also rejects a literal millennial kingdom. The belief that Christians will someday establish a theocracy on earth is an inconceivable idea, especially in light of the growing worldwide hatred toward Bible-believing Christianity.

For the last one hundred years the influence of Christians has waned greatly. However, the power of the major false religions (Roman Catholicism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, New Age Spirituality) have increased significantly along with atheism and humanism. The popular accepted “politically correct” religions will merge into a one-world ecumenical religious system led by the False Prophet during the seven-year Tribulation.

The forces of darkness have strengthened their control over nations all throughout the world. A rapid movement in the last century was initiated, consolidating the power of Satan’s henchmen among governments worldwide—through the creation of numerous political and economic organizations. That intense effort is growing stronger in this century with no signs of slowing. A one-world government, economy and religion under the power of Satan is inevitable—just as the Bible teaches (Revelation chapters 13 and 17).

Amillennialism is a erroneous doctrine which denies that there will be a literal Rapture, a literal seven-year Tribulation and a literal millennial kingdom—over which Jesus Christ the Messiah will rule on earth for 1000-years.

Amillennialists teach that the 1000 years cited six times in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number. In the early 5th century, Augustine, a philosopher and theologian, wrote in his book The City of God that the book of Revelation “is a spiritual allegory.” He saw the millennial kingdom as being primarily the reign of Christ in the hearts of the faithful and that Christ’s reign on earth is spiritual in nature.

Roman Catholicism gleaned a great deal from Augustine’s writings even to the point of sometimes being referred to as the “Father of Roman Catholicism.” His contributions to Catholic doctrine include his belief in the necessity of infant baptism, the perpetual virginity of Mary, and the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. All very disturbing blasphemous teachings. The Roman Catholic Church also claims to be the “kingdom of God on earth” and the “new Israel.” [1]

Amillennialism was adopted by the Roman Catholic Church and also by most of the Reformers who did not reject all of the unsound doctrines of the Church of Rome. A few of the early Church fathers of the first and second centuries believed in Amillennialism, but none of the writings of those few men have survived—so there is no definitive record of their beliefs except for references made in the writings of Justin Martyr (100-165 AD).

The vast majority of the early Church fathers taught that there would be a 1000-year millennial kingdom with Jesus at the helm. Only a small number of them rejected a literal kingdom: Clement of Alexandria, Caius, Origen and Dionysius. The latter two are considered to have been heretics. It was not until Augustine (354-430 A.D.) began to write on his views of eschatology that the belief in a spiritual, and not a literal millennial kingdom took hold.

The skewed teaching of Amillennialism does not make sense; it denies the literal fulfillment of Bible prophecy. It is inconceivable that God would fulfill all the prophecies of the Messiah’s First Coming in a literal manner, and then have most of the prophecies of His Second Coming fulfilled in an allegorical (spiritual) manner.

“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever” (Hebrews 13:8).

One must ask who is more trustworthy concerning doctrine—the Roman Catholic Church which teaches Amillennialism and other extra-biblical doctrines, or Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Old Testament prophets, the Apostles and the early Church fathers?

The Reformers held onto Amillenialism when they split from the Roman Catholic Church just as they retained a number of other false doctrines, such as the teaching of purgatory. Amillennialists deny that the Antichrist will be a real man and they deny a literal Tribulation period. They do this by twisting the passage in Daniel that describes the Antichrist and the Tribulation (Daniel 9:25-27).

Amillennialists argue that the “anointed one, the prince” in verse 25 and the “anointed one” in verse 26 is Jesus (which is correct), but say that the “prince” in verse 26 refers to Titus. They also claim that the word “he” in verse 27 is Jesus who made a covenant with Israel at the beginning of His ministry and broke it after 3½ years. They say the “one that maketh desolate” in verse 27 was Titus.

Such an interpretation is clumsy and implausible. It is impossible by all rules of grammar for the word “he” in verse 27 to refer back to the “anointed one” of verses 25 and 26. The “he” in verse 27 can only refer back to the “prince” of verse 26 which clearly states, “the prince that shall come” (Antichrist).

Another insurmountable problem with this interpretation is that Jesus did not make a covenant with Israel when He began His ministry; Titus did not make a covenant with Israel, and neither did anyone else in the first century A.D. The Antichrist (“the man of sin”) who is prophesied to come in the future will make a covenant with Israel and later break it:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God” (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 KJV).

“And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined” (Daniel 9:26 ASV).

“And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate” (Daniel 9:27 ASV).

The Church fathers who taught that there will be a literal millennial kingdom were Clement of Rome, Barnabas, Hermas, Polycarp, Ignatius, Papias, Pothinus, Justin Martyr, Melito, Hegisippus, Tatian, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Apollinaris, Cyprian, Commodian, Nepos, Coracion, Victorinus, Methodius and Lactantius (Chafer, Lewis Sperry, Systematic Theology, Vol. 4, p. 271-274). At the Nicene Council, “318 bishops from all parts of the earth placed themselves on record” in believing in a literal millennial kingdom (Ibid., p. 275).

Additionally, at the Nicene Council, “318 bishops from all parts of the earth placed themselves on record” in believing in a literal millennial kingdom (Ibid., p. 275). The teaching of the Catholic Church on this matter is wrong. The Old Testament prophets, Jesus Christ, the Apostles and the early Church fathers are right that there will be a millennial kingdom.

Postmillennialists and Amillennialists use the same method of study. They insert into the text a meaning that is simply not there. They make the text say what they want it to say, rather than accepting what the text itself says.

Common sense and careful biblical exegesis cannot support a mythical spiritual utopia (an allegorical millennial kingdom), and the other flawed teachings that Postmellinialists and Amillennialists embrace as truth. When the Rapture takes place, those who hold to those positions will be shocked.

By Kit R, Olsen


Quasar92

Those of the pretrib/premill camp pretend to take Revelation chapter 20 "literally" and hope that nobody will mention the fact that if the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20 is really the "first" bodily resurrection, then their pretrib rapture goes out the window...




.
 
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jgr

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At the Nicene Council, “318 bishops from all parts of the earth placed themselves on record” in believing in a literal millennial kingdom (Ibid., p. 275).

We need a quote from the Nicene proceedings to confirm this. There is no mention of a millennium in the Nicene Creed.
 
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parousia70

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For the last one hundred years the influence of Christians has waned greatly.

Christianity remains the single most influential religion on earth and continues to grow at a rate that will keep it that way.

Postmillennialists and Amillennialists use the same method of study. They insert into the text a meaning that is simply not there. They make the text say what they want it to say, rather than accepting what the text itself says.

Says the person who Inserts into the text "2000 years" as a meaning for "shortly, soon, at hand, about to take place, near, quickly.." to make the text say the opposite of what it does, rather than accepting it for what it LITERALLY says.
 
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Quasar92

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Those of the pretrib/premill camp pretend to take Revelation chapter 20 "literally" and hope that nobody will mention the fact that if the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20 is really the "first" bodily resurrection, then their pretrib rapture goes out the window...




.


Jesus advised John the general resurrection in Rev.20:4 is the FIRST one. Please explain why you
are contradicting Jesus by denying it. Please also try explaining what it has of anything whatever to do with the rapture pf the Church.


Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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We need a quote from the Nicene proceedings to confirm this. There is no mention of a millennium in the Nicene Creed.


God's day of rest in Hebrews 4 as well as Jesus advising John, He will reign for 1,000 years in Rev.20:6. There are many other passages that refer to that coming event, but do not specify how long it will last.


Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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Christianity remains the single most influential religion on earth and continues to grow at a rate that will keep it that way.



Says the person who Inserts into the text "2000 years" as a meaning for "shortly, soon, at hand, about to take place, near, quickly.." to make the text say the opposite of what it does, rather than accepting it for what it LITERALLY says.


Unfortunately, your very optimistic approach to Christian growth today, as compared to immediately following WWII, is well off the mark. Church attendance today is way down in attendance by comparison. Check it out for yourself.


Quasar92
 
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jgr

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God's day of rest in Hebrews 4 as well as Jesus advising John, He will reign for 1,000 years in Rev.20:6. There are many other passages that refer to that coming event, but do not specify how long it will last.


Quasar92
You misunderstood the original request, so here it is again:

The critique claims: "At the Nicene Council, “318 bishops from all parts of the earth placed themselves on record” in believing in a literal millennial kingdom (Ibid., p. 275)."

The record upon which the bishops placed themselves is not the Nicene Creed, as there is no mention of a millennium therein. Therefore, we need to see whatever evidence exists to support the critique's claim that "At the Nicene Council, “318 bishops from all parts of the earth placed themselves on record” in believing in a literal millennial kingdom (Ibid., p. 275)."
 
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Quasar92

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You misunderstood the original request, so here it is again:

The critique claims: "At the Nicene Council, “318 bishops from all parts of the earth placed themselves on record” in believing in a literal millennial kingdom (Ibid., p. 275)."

The record upon which the bishops placed themselves is not the Nicene Creed, as there is no mention of a millennium therein. Therefore, we need to see whatever evidence exists to support the critique's claim that "At the Nicene Council, “318 bishops from all parts of the earth placed themselves on record” in believing in a literal millennial kingdom (Ibid., p. 275)."


I suggest you seek evidence for the Millennial reign of Christ in the Bible, from where the source of it comes, rather than in the creeds of man. To say nothing of the proof that comes from qualified theologians who have already done the studying of the subject.


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jgr

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I suggest you seek evidence for the Millennial reign of Christ in the Bible, from where the source of it comes, rather than in the creeds of man. To say nothing of the proof that comes from qualified theologians who have already done the studying of the subject.


Quasar92
Since you refuse to produce the requested evidence, it would appear that we have another fine example of the dispensational penchant for fraud, fabrication, and falsification.

I invite you to prove me wrong.
 
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Quasar92

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Since you refuse to produce the requested evidence, it would appear that we have another fine example of the dispensational penchant for fraud, fabrication, and falsification.

I invite you to prove me wrong.


Coming from you, I can understand the opinionated arrogance. If you are unable to discuss issues in a civil manner, I will no longer interface with you at all. You had my response on post #6. Here is more:


Bible Answer:

It is wonderful that you want to explore another viewpoint about the future as taught in the book of Revelation. One of the marks of an unteachable spirit is the unwillingness to ask the question, “Have I been wrong?” May we encourage you to read several studies before you read the response below. The first study will provide a better understanding of the future earthly 1,000 year kingdom. The study is entitled, “Which Kingdom?” The second study is about the rapture and it is entitled “The Church is Missing.” The first study is the most important one.

Numbers
Next we want to see what the book of Revelation says about the 1,000 year kingdom. Probably the most significant passage in Revelation is found in Revelation 20:1-4.

And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (NASB) Rev. 20:1-4

Here we read that Satan will be bound in an abyss for 1,000 years. Now the question we need to ask is, “Are the 1,000 years real years or are they symbolic?” The answer is actually found in the book of Revelation itself. For example, the book is full of numbers. It has referred to 7 churches, 7 angels, 7 lampstands, 7 stars (Rev. 1), 4 creatures before the throne, 24 elders (Rev. 4), 144,000 witnesses (12,000 from each tribe in Rev. 7), 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls, and a 200,000 man army (Rev. 9). During the 7 seals we can read about 1/3 of the sea, 1/3 of the ships, 1/3 of the waters, and 1/3 of the sun and moon and stars being struck (Rev. 8:7-13). In Revelation 11 we read about 2 witnesses, 3.5 days, and 42 months, and 1,260 days.

Rev. 12 refers to “times, time, and half a time,” as well as 7 horns, 10 horns, 7 crowns, 1/3 of the stars, and 1,260 days. When we come to Rev. 13, we find 42 months and the number 666. When we arrive at Revelation 16, we see the 7 bowls are counted off. Revelation 17 describes 10 horns, 7 heads, 10 horns, and an eighth king. There are many numbers in the book and the vast majority of scholars accept those numbers for what they are. They accept the numbers literally.

The Kingdom
So when we come to Revelation 20:1-4, should we reject the number 1,000 years and now make an exception and say that this number does not mean one thousand? Should we say that it does not refer to 1,000 years? The answer is no. The 1,000 years are literal just like the others. With a strictly symbolic approach to interpretation we have confusion. With a symbolic approach everything is suspect and there might really be 101 trumpets or only one seal.


The Holy Spirit is telling us that Satan will be bound for 1,000 years. He will not be allowed to continue his works of evil. Some have said that Satan is bound now and the “kingdom” of God is advancing. They believe the world is getting better and better. They would say that Christianity is gradually taking over the world. How can that be true? The Holy Spirit has told us by the Apostle Paul that an apostasy will come first.

. . . that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first . . . (NASB) 2 Thess. 2:2-3

This means the “kingdom” on earth will almost be destroyed, and then the Tribulation will come. God will destroy those who oppose Him and then establish His kingdom. Then the kingdom will really rule the world.

Notice that Rev. 20:4 tells us that we will reign with Jesus Christ for 1,000 years. Shall we reject the number and say that it is symbolic? If it is symbolic, how much of Revelation shall we say is symbolic? If we do that, then the meaning of Revelation is open to anyone’s imagination. Among those who take that position, there are many different meanings, and they significantly disagree with each other. But if we accept all of these numbers literally, then the book is easier to understand. The kingdom is real, and it lasts for 1,000 years. Every Christian returns to life before the kingdom starts, and those who are not Christians do not return to life until after the universe is destroyed.

Conclusion:
Why reject a literal understanding of Revelation? If we understand it literally, we have a wonderful understanding of our coming future. The book of Daniel is probably the greatest support for a literal understanding of this book. Daniel was very literal. It predicted the rise and fall of four kingdoms and the predictions came literally true (see the series of studies in Daniel 2 and 7). Revelation refers back to those predictions in Daniel using even the same symbols (Rev. 13 and 17). This implies that Revelation accepts the literal truth of Daniel. Revelation builds on the book of Daniel. Revelation continues the prophecy. How can we test the truth of the prophet if it is filled with symbolic interpretations? These are great questions to struggle with. The rapture is coming and God’s glorious earthly, 1,000 year kingdom follows. Then will come His eternal kingdom. Come quickly Lord Jesus!


Quasar92
 
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Jesus advised John the general resurrection in Rev.20:4 is the FIRST one. Please explain why you
are contradicting Jesus by denying it. Please also try explaining what it has of anything whatever to do with the rapture pf the Church.


Quasar92

You must be aware that the "rapture of the Church" includes a bodily resurrection of the dead.
Therefore, if the "first resurrection" in Revelation chapter 20 is really the "first" "bodily" resurrection of the dead, then there is no pretrib rapture of the Church.


However, Christ described two types of resurrection in John chapter 5.
One is a "spiritual" resurrection from the dead and the other is a "bodily" resurrection of the dead.


The first resurrection in John 5 is found in John 5:24.
It is the process of being passed from death to life, upon coming to faith in Christ.


Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 



The second resurrection found in John chapter 5 includes the bodily resurrection and judgment of "all" the dead.

Joh 5:27  And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 

Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 

Joh 5:30  I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. 


The same person who recorded John chapter 5 also recorded Revelation chapter 20.

John saw "souls" in heaven in Revelation chapter 20.
Therefore they have already undergone "the first resurrection" found in John chapter 5.

The timing of the bodily resurrection and judgment of the dead is at Revelation 11:18.

Rev 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 


It occurs right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, at Revelation 11:15.


.
 
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jgr

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Does anyone out there have Lewis Sperry Chafer's Systematic Theology Vol. 4 to verify the claim below said to appear on page 275? We wish to know Chafer's source for the claim.

The claim: "At the Nicene Council, “318 bishops from all parts of the earth placed themselves on record” in believing in a literal millennial kingdom (Ibid., p. 275)."
 
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parousia70

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Unfortunately, your very optimistic approach to Christianith today, as compared to immediately following WWII, is well off the mark. Church attendance today is way down in attendance by comparison. Check it out for yourself.
Quasar92

Not in Asia, the most populated continent on earth. attendance is up and growing there, among other areas of the Globe.
Remember, "God so loved the world"... not Just 'murica...
You might consider taking off your 'murica centered blinders.

Oh, and no, you are no literalist. not by a long shot.
 
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parousia70

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Conclusion:
Why reject a literal understanding of Revelation?

Quasar92

That is an interesting question coming from someone who rejects the literal and instead allegorizes, spiritualizes, twists and stretches the literal time statements of near, soon, at hand, & quickly into meaningless gibberish to suit his own paradigm.
 
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Quasar92

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You must be aware that the "rapture of the Church" includes a bodily resurrection of the dead.
Therefore, if the "first resurrection" in Revelation chapter 20 is really the "first" "bodily" resurrection of the dead, then there is no pretrib rapture of the Church.


However, Christ described two types of resurrection in John chapter 5.
One is a "spiritual" resurrection from the dead and the other is a "bodily" resurrection of the dead.


The first resurrection in John 5 is found in John 5:24.
It is the process of being passed from death to life, upon coming to faith in Christ.


Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 



The second resurrection found in John chapter 5 includes the bodily resurrection and judgment of "all" the dead.

Joh 5:27  And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 

Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 

Joh 5:30  I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. 


The same person who recorded John chapter 5 also recorded Revelation chapter 20.

John saw "souls" in heaven in Revelation chapter 20.
Therefore they have already undergone "the first resurrection" found in John chapter 5.

The timing of the bodily resurrection and judgment of the dead is at Revelation 11:18.

Rev 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 


It occurs right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, at Revelation 11:15.


.


Why 1 Thess.4:16 is not a resurrection

The primary reason is because Jesus told John, the resurrection of the tribulation martyrs/saints in Rev.20:4, is the FIRST general resurrection, which is SEVEN YEARS LATER that the events of 1 Thess.4:16-17

Rev.20:4 "Then I saw tthrones, and useated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw vthe souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those wwho had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. xThey came to life and yreigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.This is the first resurrection. 6 zBlessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such athe second death has no power, but they will be bpriests of God and of Christ, and they cwill reign with him for a thousand years."

The statement by Paul in 1 Thess.4:16, "...and the dead in Christ will rise first," does not mean a resurrection is about to occur. Because they were all raised once before, as those who die in Christ, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8, and as FIRSTFRUITS, each in his own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. Who will return with Jesus when He comes with them from heaven, according to vs 14. If Paul meant it was to be a resurrection, he would have documented it as one, which he did not do. If he had, there would be three resurrections rather than the two that are recorded in Rev.20:4-6. Which would then have to be changed from the first and second, to the second and third resurrections. 1 Thess.4:13-18 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Christ to the earth, as documented in Mt.24:30; Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, when the Pre-trib raptured Church RETURNS WITH CHRIST!

But rather than meaning it to be a resurrection, it was the third of Paul's assurances to the Thessalonians, that all the members of their church, who had already died in Christ, would not miss the pre-trib rapture of the Church he was teaching them about.

The first of Paul's three assurances begins in vs 13: "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep [die], or to grieve like the rest of men [non-believers], who have no hope." [Parenthetics mine].

Then he followed up his first assurance to them that all those who had previously died in Christ would be together with them at the rapture of the Church in the very next verse [14]: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him." Revealing to them, that Christ had previously raised them all once before, as documented in 2 Cor.5:6-8, and had been in heaven with Him ever since. Since all the dead in Christ have been raised once before, there is no reason for them having to be raised a second time. Confirming their status as FIRSTFRUITS, raised each in his own order, according to 1 Cor.15:23.

There will not be any resurrected then, because all their dead in Christ had already been raised once before, in their spiritual bodies [As recorded in 1 Cor.15:44], following the death of their bodies, when they immediately went to be with Christ in heaven. Confirming Ecc.12:7 as well as 2 Cor.5:6-8. Confirmed in 1 Thes.4:14, saying they are returning with Christ, when He returns, from heaven with them. Therefore, when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky for all those who belong to Him left here on earth alive, they will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air [together with those who previously died in Him, who are already there].

The second of Paul's three assurances to the Thessalonians, was that their dead in Christ will not miss the rapture of the Church is in vs 15, which states: "According to the Lord's own word [Recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are left [Believers] till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep [Died]." Of course not! Because they will have already been raised once before, and gone to be with the Lord in heaven in their spiritual bodies, and then return with Him when He comes from heaven! They certainly do not need a resurrection, because they are going to the spiritual world in heaven. In contrast to the glorified physical bodies that will be necessary at the time of the resurrection documented in Rev.20:4 and 6. Because they are to be priests of God and rule with Jesus for 1,000 years right here on the earth, in a human environment! [Parenthetics mine].

The third and final assurance Paul wrote in vs 16, the subject of this thread, has already been addressed above.

There is also the false view by those, who attempt to make 1 Thes.4:16-17 a reference to the first resurrection in Rev.20:4 and 6, at the second coming of Christ, which does not take place until seven years later. Which is not possible, because after we [All believers] have been CAUGHT UP to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, we will go to be with our Father in heaven, as Jesus promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. Seven years after that, we will all return with Christ, from heaven, at His second coming to the earth, as recorded in Rev.19:14, Zech.14:4-5 and in Jude 14.

Nowhere in the Bible is there a single passage of anyone called up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, when He returns in His second coming to the earth! Because the first of many things He will do, is in fighting the Antichrist, the false prophet and their ten nations allied to them, in the battle of Armageddon and defeating them, the forces of evil, according to Rev.19:11-20. Then in setting up His Millennial Kingdom here on the earth, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. He does not return to heaven from that time on until the present heaven and earth is destroyed and a new heaven and earth is created by God in Rev.21:1.


Quasar92
 
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GeorgeJ

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If you are unable to discuss issues in a civil manner, I will no longer interface with you at all.
He is able to discuss it in a civil manner.....but you just refuse to answer his question and are skirting around it.

You said:
Additionally, at the Nicene Council, “318 bishops from all parts of the earth placed themselves on record” in believing in a literal millennial kingdom
He stated:
We need a quote from the Nicene proceedings to confirm this. There is no mention of a millennium in the Nicene Creed.
In response to this you stated:
God's day of rest in Hebrews 4 as well as Jesus advising John, He will reign for 1,000 years in Rev.20:6. There are many other passages that refer to that coming event, but do not specify how long it will last.
Which in no way provides a quote from the Nicene Council.

Can you provide a quote from the Nicene Council supporting your claim or not?
 
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BABerean2

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Nowhere in the Bible is there a single passage of anyone called up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, when He returns in His second coming to the earth!

Rev 11:11  And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 

Rev 11:12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
 
Rev 11:13  And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 

Rev 11:14  The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 



Rev 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
 

Rev 11:16  And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 

Rev 11:17  Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 

Rev 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 


.
 
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Quasar92

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Rev 11:11  And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 

Rev 11:12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
 
Rev 11:13  And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 

Rev 11:14  The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 



Rev 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
 

Rev 11:16  And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 

Rev 11:17  Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 

Rev 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 


.


The above is the response you gave to my following quote:

>>>"Nowhere in the Bible is there a single passage of anyone called up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, when He returns in His second coming to the earth! Because the first of many things He will do, is in fighting the Antichrist, the false prophet and their ten nations allied to them, in the battle of Armageddon and defeating them, the forces of evil, according to Rev.19:11-20. Then in setting up His Millennial Kingdom here on the earth, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. He does not return to heaven from that time on until the present heaven and earth is destroyed and a new heaven and earth is created by God in Rev.21:1."<<<

There is but one time in the entire Bible where millions of believers will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER to meet the Lord in the sky. It is documented in 1 Thess.4:16-17, when Jesus returns seven years BEFORE His second coming, for His church. As contrasted to His second coming, when NO ONE will meet Him in the sky.

You make a big deal in attempting to refute what I wrote, by attempting to use the two witnesses God will return from heaven, in Rev.11:3-6, as your argument. In the first place, the two witnesses will be present during the FIRST 3.5 years of the 7 year tribulation, and have nothing to do with Jesus second coming. which relegates your attempt to refute what I have written, a complete failure.

Rev.11:1"I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”a 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

11But after the three and a half days the breathb of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on"

WHO ARE THE TWO WITNESSES IN REV.11:3-6 GOD SENDS TO EARTH FROM HEAVEN?

Who are the "two witnesses" in Revelation 11:3-6 ? Moses, Elijah and Enoch are the most likely candidates for Revelation's two witnesses, with most scholars believing the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. In Matthew 17, when Jesus took Peter, James, and John to the mount and was transfigured in front of them, Moses and Elijah appeared with Him. Enoch was not there. The transfiguration can be seen as a picture of the coming of the two witnesses--Moses and Elijah.

Malachi 4:5 predicts that Elijah will come as one of the two witnesses: "See I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the Lord comes." Elijah was taken up into heaven by a whirlwind and chariot of fire (see 2 Kings 2:9-11); he did not physically die. Likewise, Moses, did not die a normal death. The Bible tells us that God preserved Moses' body (see Deuteronomy 34:5,6; Jude 9). The accounts of their deaths further corroborate the selection of Moses and Elijah as the two witnesses.

The powers given these two witnesses in Revelation 11:3-6, are the very same ones they were each given during their lifetime. The power to shut up the sky so it didn't rain was given to Elijah in 1 Kings 17:1. Moses was given the power to turn water into blood, in Exodus 7:17.


Quasar92
 
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Not in Asia, the most populated continent on earth. attendance is up and growing there, among other areas of the Globe.
Remember, "God so loved the world"... not Just 'murica...
You might consider taking off your 'murica centered blinders.

Oh, and no, you are no literalist. not by a long shot.


My statement pertained to church attendance in this country, Not anyplace else in the world . Your claim that I do not interpret Scripture literally is a false statement, sonny.


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