How to know if you have the Holy spirit..

gadar perets · Jul 21, 2017

Heber Book List said:
Forgive me, but I do not think you really understand Christian theology.

Yeshua didn't say he was G_d, he said that he and the Father (G_d) are [as] one, as we might claim today, because we strive to be more like him; indeed some people think 'Jesus lives within us', as I have said previously. That is wrong - the Spirit of Yeshua lives in us... if we have the Spirit. The actions and miracles etc that you mention, were NOT because he was G_d, they were by the power of the Spirit upon him as a human; we see the same thing happening today but we do not claim that the person through whom G_d works IS G_d, do we? Do they claim to be G_d - no! Yeshua passed onto us, the Spirit with which G_d had endowed him; the very same Spirit by whom these miracles are done by those obey G_d. That Spirit can live in us to enable us to do G_d's will all around the globe, whereas Yeshua was limited to Israel, as was, then.

I agree with the above paragraph, but not your opening sentence. I think I understand it quite well.

Whilst he walked this earth he maintained his G_dliness, but set it aside to be like one of us, to prove to us that we can actually be sinless and obedient to G_d in every way; I can lay aside my professional life and be someone else entirely, but I would continue to be a professional.

First, "godliness" means "piety" in the NT. I try and maintain godliness in my walk. You are using "Godliness" to mean "deity". Correct? If so, then you are saying he laid aside his deity, but remained God?

If he cannot lay aside his G_dliness, to be like one of us, temporarily, please explain the miracles in the Tanach - a miracle is a miracle, is miracle. In the Tanach, as I pointed out, people were born miraculously, and didn't die, are expected to return from the 'dead', and Messiah is yet to come - looking like man, or a Spirit?

The miracles in the Tanach were done by ordinary men through the power of the Holy Spirit just as Yeshua did. I don't understand your last sentence. What is your point?

Colossians 1:27; Colossians 3:11; Romans 8:10; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 4:19; and Ephesians 3:17 - Read a decent translation . Try The Complete Jewish Bible by David Stern to re-read these texts in a Jewish context. I see no problem in any of them with what I have said. Do you have trouble with Philippians 2?

Here is Colossians 1:27 in the CJB:

27 To them God wanted to make known how great among the Gentiles is the glorious richness of this secret. And the secret is this: the Messiah is united with you people! In that rests your hope of glory!

Sorry, but I don't see the Greek word en meaning "united" in any lexicon. This is obviously a paraphrase since several other words like "people" and "rests" are not in the Greek text. This is only one reason why I never bought a copy for myself. Paraphrases give us the translators take on a verse. They do not necessarily give us the true meaning from the text.

Heber Book List · Jul 22, 2017

gadar perets said:
I agree with the above paragraph, but not your opening sentence. I think I understand it quite well.

First, "godliness" means "piety" in the NT. I try and maintain godliness in my walk. You are using "Godliness" to mean "deity". Correct? If so, then you are saying he laid aside his deity, but remained God?

The miracles in the Tanach were done by ordinary men through the power of the Holy Spirit just as Yeshua did. I don't understand your last sentence. What is your point?

Here is Colossians 1:27 in the CJB:

27 To them God wanted to make known how great among the Gentiles is the glorious richness of this secret. And the secret is this: the Messiah is united with you people! In that rests your hope of glory!

Sorry, but I don't see the Greek word en meaning "united" in any lexicon. This is obviously a paraphrase since several other words like "people" and "rests" are not in the Greek text. This is only one reason why I never bought a copy for myself. Paraphrases give us the translators take on a verse. They do not necessarily give us the true meaning from the text.

I am pleased to see the list of questions shrinking

Re your 'First' comment above about Yeshua being a Deity. When he walked this earth he was as a human, having laid aside all his powers, authority etc that he had as a Deity, so that he could come to earth as a human being, born of a human mother, with all the senses, feelings and abilities of one of us; when he hurt himself, it hurt and blood flowed. Now, whilst being on earth as a man he was still the Deity he was at first. His identity was a Deity, stripped of all his power, his function was a human being, hence haSatan's chiding of him in the desert, repeated by Herod and by the crowd at his human death. His human body, having been put to death on the cross, was placed in the tomb. He rose from the dead but had not, then, taken up all his powers (I have not yet gone to my Father). Let's see how we do with this, thus far.

Many Christians worship Yeshua - this gives a wrong impression. When they are worshipping him, are they worshipping him as he was when he walked this earth, or as G_d before and after that 3 year span. We should not be worshipping him as he was as a human. We should be worshipping one G_d, to whom we have ascribed 3 anthropological understandings in our mind, those of: Father, Son and Spirit. Yeshua was very clear that we must worship G_d the Father, not him as a man (why do you call me 'good'...'). He told us that what we ask of the Father, in his name, G_d would do - but that has a hidden caveat - we can only apply that if our prayers are in tune with G_d's will which, in any case, G_d would do, presumably, because it is in line with his desire, though he does like to hear about our needs, fears desires etc., and responds to those cries to him; I do not think the 'anything' is to be taken too literally, as has been the case with the 'get rich quick' congregations. Yeshua always deferred to G_d the Father, when he was as a human, he taught the supremacy of G_d. When we pray, we pray to one G_d, in intercessions we pray in Yeshua's name (whatever you ask of the Father), in the power of the Spirit. Many Christians, and congregations, are not aware of this Biblical injunction and do all sorts of weird things, technically. Just as some people say: Father (or Yeshua), please be with xxxxx - not noticing that Yeshua told us that G_d is with us always and will never leave us! That is just lazy language rather than bad theology! Now, we are clear that the Spirit is of G_d so, hopefully, if we get our heads around the 'titles' we use, we might be able to see more clearly.

We must, of course, not forget that G_d walked in the garden and spoke to the first humans he created - was he, then, in appearance, as a human being? Maybe you will say we do not know / understand that. What about my previous questions about the gods in Genesis 6? The Tanach is not a stranger to fantastic things: donkeys that speak, axe heads that float, the sun stands still, who wrote on the wall, and so on. Why could G_d NOT have come to earth as one of us, it is, arguably, less fantastic than some of those episodes? Will the Messiah of the Tanach, when he comes, be as Spirit, or as man?

gadar perets · Jul 22, 2017

Heber Book List said:
Re your 'First' comment above about Yeshua being a Deity. When he walked this earth he was as a human, having laid aside all his powers, authority etc that he had as a Deity, so that he could come to earth as a human being, born of a human mother, with all the senses, feelings and abilities of one of us; when he hurt himself, it hurt and blood flowed. Now, whilst being on earth as a man he was still the Deity he was at first. His identity was a Deity, stripped of all his power, his function was a human being, hence haSatan's chiding of him in the desert, repeated by Herod and by the crowd at his human death. His human body, having been put to death on the cross, was placed in the tomb. He rose from the dead but had not, then, taken up all his powers (I have not yet gone to my Father). Let's see how we do with this, thus far.

I agree with most of this except for your use of "Deity" and laying aside and taking up his powers and authority. This thread is probably not the place, but first it must be established that the Son is “Deity”. Just because the English word “God” is used of Yeshua, that doesn’t make him Deity. It just makes it a poor translation. We know his Father is Deity, but if the Son is as well, then you also need to prove your view is not polytheism. Then you need to prove he laid aside his powers and authority, yet still remained Deity. At this point, you haven’t given me any Scripture. If you would like to discuss these things, you can start a new thread in Christian Apologetics or Christianity and World Religions. Or you can just provide your proof here if that is permissible.

Many Christians worship Yeshua - this gives a wrong impression. When they are worshipping him, are they worshipping him as he was when he walked this earth, or as G_d before and after that 3 year span. We should not be worshipping him as he was as a human. We should be worshipping one G_d, to whom we have ascribed 3 anthropological understandings in our mind, those of: Father, Son and Spirit. Yeshua was very clear that we must worship G_d the Father, not him as a man (why do you call me 'good'...'). He told us that what we ask of the Father, in his name, G_d would do - but that has a hidden caveat - we can only apply that if our prayers are in tune with G_d's will which, in any case, G_d would do, presumably, because it is in line with his desire, though he does like to hear about our needs, fears desires etc., and responds to those cries to him; I do not think the 'anything' is to be taken too literally, as has been the case with the 'get rich quick' congregations. Yeshua always deferred to G_d the Father, when he was as a human, he taught the supremacy of G_d. When we pray, we pray to one G_d, in intercessions we pray in Yeshua's name (whatever you ask of the Father), in the power of the Spirit. Many Christians, and congregations, are not aware of this Biblical injunction and do all sorts of weird things, technically. Just as some people say: Father (or Yeshua), please be with xxxxx - not noticing that Yeshua told us that G_d is with us always and will never leave us! That is just lazy language rather than bad theology! Now, we are clear that the Spirit is of G_d so, hopefully, if we get our heads around the 'titles' we use, we might be able to see more clearly.

We are to “worship” (honor, adore, kiss, fawn over, bow down to, etc) the Son as “the Son of God”, not as “God” himself or as the “only true God”. You say we should not worship him as a human, but that is exactly what we see in the Gospels (Matthew 2:11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 28:9; 28:17; Mark 5:6; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). That is because the Hebrew and Greek words for “worship” are not only done towards the one true God, but to men as well. Another word should have been used in translation instead of “worship” when it concerns humans. That was the practice in the translation of the OT, but not in the NT. Why? Because NT Trinitarian translators believe the Son is “God”. Therefore, they use “worship/worshipped” for him even when he was a flesh and blood man.

You say, “Yeshua always deferred to G_d the Father, when he was as a human, he taught the supremacy of G_d.”

He also taught the supremacy of the Father after his resurrection (John 20:17; Acts 26:18; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 4:10). All the NT writers did the same. Why? Because the Father was and always will be the “only true God” (John 17:3).

We must, of course, not forget that G_d walked in the garden and spoke to the first humans he created - was he, then, in appearance, as a human being? Maybe you will say we do not know / understand that.

No, He was not in human appearance in the garden. No man has seen God at any time. We are told that Enoch and Noah walked with God”, but He was not in human appearance then either.

What about my previous questions about the gods in Genesis 6?

I don’t see any “gods” in Genesis 6. Are you referring to the “sons of God”?

Never mind, I found what you were referring to. You wrote;

How does the Tanach explain the sons of God in Genesis 6 - were they sons of God(s) and were their off-spring not sons of God(s)? How many Gods were around at the time?

The Hebrew word “elohim” in Genesis 6:2 would apply to YHWH, not false “gods”. Nor would the word “elohim” somehow incorporate the Father and the Son since there is only one true Elohim (Father YHWH – John 17:3). There was only one God then as there is now.

The Tanach is not a stranger to fantastic things: donkeys that speak, axe heads that float, the sun stands still, who wrote on the wall, and so on. Why could G_d NOT have come to earth as one of us, it is, arguably, less fantastic than some of those episodes? Will the Messiah of the Tanach, when he comes, be as Spirit, or as man?

All the miracles you mentioned were done by Father YHWH by the power of His Holy Spirit, either directly or through men like Moses.

God uses messengers sent from Him to interact with humans. No man has seen or heard Him. They saw and heard angels/messengers. We are taught that God is not a man and that He changes not. When you say, “Why could G_d NOT have come to earth as one of us?”, I understand you to mean that God laid aside His power and authority and changed from Spirit to flesh and became the Son. Who, then, was still in heaven to resurrect the powerless Son? You would say “G_D the Father”, but you just told me He became one of us. If God the Father remained in heaven, then did another God become the Son? If not, then you believe a part of God became a man? If so, then only part of God laid aside his powers, but the rest of Him was still powerful. This is all unscriptural and wishful thinking. Scripture teaches that God (Father YHWH) sent His only begotten Son to save the world. He did NOT send Himself. There is only one true Elohim/God (Father YHWH). Yeshua himself taught us that (John 17:3). When you accept that as true, then you will begin to understand the issue. Then you can filter all the supposed “deity of Yeshua” verses through the filter of John 17:3 and rightly divide the Word.

Heber Book List · Jul 22, 2017

gadar perets said:
I agree with most of this except for your use of "Deity" and laying aside and taking up his powers and authority. This thread is probably not the place, but first it must be established that the Son is “Deity”. Just because the English word “God” is used of Yeshua, that doesn’t make him Deity. It just makes it a poor translation. We know his Father is Deity, but if the Son is as well, then you also need to prove your view is not polytheism. Then you need to prove he laid aside his powers and authority, yet still remained Deity. At this point, you haven’t given me any Scripture. If you would like to discuss these things, you can start a new thread in Christian Apologetics or Christianity and World Religions. Or you can just provide your proof here if that is permissible.

We are to “worship” (honor, adore, kiss, fawn over, bow down to, etc) the Son as “the Son of God”, not as “God” himself or as the “only true God”. You say we should not worship him as a human, but that is exactly what we see in the Gospels (Matthew 2:11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 28:9; 28:17; Mark 5:6; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). That is because the Hebrew and Greek words for “worship” are not only done towards the one true God, but to men as well. Another word should have been used in translation instead of “worship” when it concerns humans. That was the practice in the translation of the OT, but not in the NT. Why? Because NT Trinitarian translators believe the Son is “God”. Therefore, they use “worship/worshipped” for him even when he was a flesh and blood man.

You say, “Yeshua always deferred to G_d the Father, when he was as a human, he taught the supremacy of G_d.”

He also taught the supremacy of the Father after his resurrection (John 20:17; Acts 26:18; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 4:10). All the NT writers did the same. Why? Because the Father was and always will be the “only true God” (John 17:3).

No, He was not in human appearance in the garden. No man has seen God at any time. We are told that Enoch and Noah walked with God”, but He was not in human appearance then either.

I don’t see any “gods” in Genesis 6. Are you referring to the “sons of God”?

Never mind, I found what you were referring to. You wrote;

How does the Tanach explain the sons of God in Genesis 6 - were they sons of God(s) and were their off-spring not sons of God(s)? How many Gods were around at the time?

The Hebrew word “elohim” in Genesis 6:2 would apply to YHWH, not false “gods”. Nor would the word “elohim” somehow incorporate the Father and the Son since there is only one true Elohim (Father YHWH – John 17:3). There was only one God then as there is now.

All the miracles you mentioned were done by Father YHWH by the power of His Holy Spirit, either directly or through men like Moses.

God uses messengers sent from Him to interact with humans. No man has seen or heard Him. They saw and heard angels/messengers. We are taught that God is not a man and that He changes not. When you say, “Why could G_d NOT have come to earth as one of us?”, I understand you to mean that God laid aside His power and authority and changed from Spirit to flesh and became the Son. Who, then, was still in heaven to resurrect the powerless Son? You would say “G_D the Father”, but you just told me He became one of us. If God the Father remained in heaven, then did another God become the Son? If not, then you believe a part of God became a man? If so, then only part of God laid aside his powers, but the rest of Him was still powerful. This is all unscriptural and wishful thinking. Scripture teaches that God (Father YHWH) sent His only begotten Son to save the world. He did NOT send Himself. There is only one true Elohim/God (Father YHWH). Yeshua himself taught us that (John 17:3). When you accept that as true, then you will begin to understand the issue. Then you can filter all the supposed “deity of Yeshua” verses through the filter of John 17:3 and rightly divide the Word.

Yeah, we are getting bogged down with anthropy, again!

Not to worry, many great minds have debated this issue and run aground somewhere or other. I can see where there are problems, but dealing with two millennia of wrong teaching, to find the root, is never going to be easy. We would be better off sitting down together and having a schmooze about it all, banning all anthropy!

gadar perets · Jul 22, 2017

Heber Book List said:
Yeah, we are getting bogged down with anthropy, again! Not to worry, many great minds have debated this issue and run aground somewhere or other. I can see where there are problems, but dealing with two millennia of wrong teaching, to find the root, is never going to be easy. We would be better off sitting down together and having a schmooze about it all, banning all anthropy!

Would that schmooze include tea and crumpets?

AbbaLove · Jul 22, 2017

?
?

What does Tea and Crumpets have to do with the Title of This Thread ... or ... "having a schmooze about it all, banning all anthropy!"

Dave-W · Jul 24, 2017

gadar perets said:
I agree concerning the Holy Spirit, but that is not what the majority of Christians say. They believe he did those miracles because he was 100% God.

I understand that is what is believed. But it flies in the face of His statement that we should do "greater works" that He did. John 14:12

Are we MORE God than He was?

gadar perets · Jul 24, 2017

Dave-W said:
I understand that is what is believed. But it flies in the face of His statement that we should do "greater works" that He did. John 14:12

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14:12&version=NASB
That does not necessarily mean "greater" in nature or quality, but greater in number of works.

Are we MORE God than He was?

That statement implies/assumes he was God in the same sense the Father is God. The works Yeshua's disciples would do is because he went to the Father thereby enabling his Spirit to live in us. Yeshua does the works (verses 13-14).

Heber Book List · Jul 24, 2017

gadar perets said:
I agree with most of this except for your use of "Deity" and laying aside and taking up his powers and authority. This thread is probably not the place, but first it must be established that the Son is “Deity”. Just because the English word “God” is used of Yeshua, that doesn’t make him Deity. It just makes it a poor translation. We know his Father is Deity, but if the Son is as well, then you also need to prove your view is not polytheism. Then you need to prove he laid aside his powers and authority, yet still remained Deity. At this point, you haven’t given me any Scripture. If you would like to discuss these things, you can start a new thread in Christian Apologetics or Christianity and World Religions. Or you can just provide your proof here if that is permissible.

We are to “worship” (honor, adore, kiss, fawn over, bow down to, etc) the Son as “the Son of God”, not as “God” himself or as the “only true God”. You say we should not worship him as a human, but that is exactly what we see in the Gospels (Matthew 2:11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 28:9; 28:17; Mark 5:6; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). That is because the Hebrew and Greek words for “worship” are not only done towards the one true God, but to men as well. Another word should have been used in translation instead of “worship” when it concerns humans. That was the practice in the translation of the OT, but not in the NT. Why? Because NT Trinitarian translators believe the Son is “God”. Therefore, they use “worship/worshipped” for him even when he was a flesh and blood man.

You say, “Yeshua always deferred to G_d the Father, when he was as a human, he taught the supremacy of G_d.”

He also taught the supremacy of the Father after his resurrection (John 20:17; Acts 26:18; Revelation 3:12; Revelation 4:10). All the NT writers did the same. Why? Because the Father was and always will be the “only true God” (John 17:3).

No, He was not in human appearance in the garden. No man has seen God at any time. We are told that Enoch and Noah walked with God”, but He was not in human appearance then either.

I don’t see any “gods” in Genesis 6. Are you referring to the “sons of God”?

Never mind, I found what you were referring to. You wrote;

How does the Tanach explain the sons of God in Genesis 6 - were they sons of God(s) and were their off-spring not sons of God(s)? How many Gods were around at the time?

The Hebrew word “elohim” in Genesis 6:2 would apply to YHWH, not false “gods”. Nor would the word “elohim” somehow incorporate the Father and the Son since there is only one true Elohim (Father YHWH – John 17:3). There was only one God then as there is now.

All the miracles you mentioned were done by Father YHWH by the power of His Holy Spirit, either directly or through men like Moses.

God uses messengers sent from Him to interact with humans. No man has seen or heard Him. They saw and heard angels/messengers. We are taught that God is not a man and that He changes not. When you say, “Why could G_d NOT have come to earth as one of us?”, I understand you to mean that God laid aside His power and authority and changed from Spirit to flesh and became the Son. Who, then, was still in heaven to resurrect the powerless Son? You would say “G_D the Father”, but you just told me He became one of us. If God the Father remained in heaven, then did another God become the Son? If not, then you believe a part of God became a man? If so, then only part of God laid aside his powers, but the rest of Him was still powerful. This is all unscriptural and wishful thinking. Scripture teaches that God (Father YHWH) sent His only begotten Son to save the world. He did NOT send Himself. There is only one true Elohim/God (Father YHWH). Yeshua himself taught us that (John 17:3). When you accept that as true, then you will begin to understand the issue. Then you can filter all the supposed “deity of Yeshua” verses through the filter of John 17:3 and rightly divide the Word.

The writing on the wall was not any human person, neither was the axe head when it floated, or when the sun appeared to stand still, etc etc.

Anyway, you seem to be saying that the Son of G_d is not the son of G_d - he is totally unrelated to G_d, yes? Who then is he who was born not of human decision, choice or desire? From whom did he come, how, and from where is his origin, if not from G_d?

When Messiah comes - will it be as man, or what?

gadar perets · Jul 24, 2017

Heber Book List said:
The writing on the wall was not any human person, neither was the axe head when it floated, or when the sun appeared to stand still, etc etc.

I agree, but don't understand why you are bringing these things up.

Anyway, you seem to be saying that the Son of G_d is not the son of G_d - he is totally unrelated to G_d, yes?

Absolutely not. Yeshua is the Son of God (Son of YHWH). He is the only being to ever be directly begotten by YHWH.

Who then is he who was born not of human decision, choice or desire? From whom did he come, how, and from where is his origin, if not from G_d?

His origin is from God (from Father YHWH). He was born without the aid of man, born of a human virgin woman. YHWH spoke him into existence in Miriam's (Mary's) womb. Prior to that, I do not believe he existed as YHWH's Son except in YHWH's plan of salvation. He is YHWH's only begotten Son and His Messiah. He came from heaven (not that he was alive in heaven and then came down and became man). He "came down from heaven" because his Father is YHWH and YHWH was in heaven when Yeshua was made flesh. He came out from within YHWH when Father YHWH's spoken words and thoughts (logos) became flesh. The Father spoke the words needed to fertilize Miriam's womb with the exact DNA necessary to bring forth a 100% human male child.

When Messiah comes - will it be as man, or what?

When he came the first time, it was as a 100% human male. When he comes to resurrect the dead, he will come as a glorified, resurrected man in a spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44-45) that has eternal life. He will be second in command of the entire universe and his Father YHWH will be first in command.

visionary · Jul 25, 2017

The problem with the Holy Spirit is either you have it or you don't. It is like standing in the light that someone keeps moving. Something like a cat chasing a laser light. The consistency of the light itself remains unchanged but concept of stationary positioning is not the purpose that God has for the light. It is to lead.

AbbaLove · Jul 25, 2017

visionary said:
The problem with the Holy Spirit is either you have it or you don't. It is like standing in the light that someone keeps moving. Something like a cat chasing a laser light. The consistency of the light itself remains unchanged but concept of stationary positioning is not the purpose that God has for the light. It is to lead.

So a little over halfway into page 4 what additional perspective can you share on how one can know if "you have it (Holy Spirit) or you don't"?

Goatee · Jul 25, 2017

May I comment and say some believe they are filled with they Holy Spirit because they speak in tongues!!

For the life of me, I just can't seem to believe that at all.

gadar perets · Jul 25, 2017

AbbaLove said:
So a little over halfway into page 4 what additional perspective can you share on how one can know if "you have it (Holy Spirit) or you don't"?

A lot of people have it, but they don't all have ears to hear it or a heart to obey it. That is why we can grieve the Holy Spirit.

visionary · Jul 25, 2017

Goatee said:
May I comment and say some believe they are filled with they Holy Spirit because they speak in tongues!!

For the life of me, I just can't seem to believe that at all.

Me neither....

visionary · Jul 25, 2017

gadar perets said:
A lot of people have it, but they don't all have ears to hear it or a heart to obey it. That is why we can grieve the Holy Spirit.

And here I thought grieving was because they wouldn't answer the knock..

gadar perets · Jul 25, 2017

visionary said:
And here I thought grieving was because they wouldn't answer the knock..

I can't tell if you are serious or joking :scratch:

visionary · Jul 26, 2017

gadar perets said:
I can't tell if you are serious or joking

serious

AbbaLove · Jul 26, 2017

gadar perets said:
A lot of people have it, but they don't all have ears to hear it or a heart to obey it. That is why we can grieve the Holy Spirit.

visionary said:
And here I thought grieving [the Holy Spirit] was because they wouldn't answer the knock..

Every Believer has an awareness when they grieve the Holy Spirit. However, if time and time again one is tardy to repent, even though they may feel some remorse, does one at some point not only grieve the Holy Spirit, but run the danger of eventually quenching the presence of the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 3:20-21 (NKJV)
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

It's an awful thing if for whatever reason(s) a Messianic should at some point decide that he prefers dining out.

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