Necessity of an Interval between the Rapture and the Second Coming

Quasar92 said:

1.THE BEMA JUDGMENT 2 Corinthians 5:10 teaches that all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven. This event, often known as the "bema judgment" (see also Rom. 14:10; 1 Cor. 3:10-15; 4:2-5) from the Greek word bema, is an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth. Instead, the second coming brings with it God's judgment of unbelievers, usually expressed by some form of the Greek word krinô. Thus, it can be established from the biblical text that the bema-judgment applies only to church age believers, while the krinô-judgment is for unbelievers. The Bible indicates that each individual within the Body of Christ will appear before the bema in association with Christ's return for the church (i.e., at the pretrib rapture). Dr. Robert Gromacki notes: the judgment will occur immediately after the coming of Christ for believers. . . . Earlier, Paul wrote: "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come . . . (I Cor. 4:5). Thus, this is not an ongoing judgment that each Christian experiences on earth or right after death. It is a once-for-all event that occurs right after the appearing of Christ (I Thess. 4:13-18).2 Since the normal transaction of such an evaluation would require some passage of time, the pre-trib gap of seven years nicely accounts for such a requirement.

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Quasar92 said:

1.THE BEMA JUDGMENT 2 Corinthians 5:10 teaches that all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven. This event, often known as the "bema judgment" (see also Rom. 14:10; 1 Cor. 3:10-15; 4:2-5)

None of the above passages even hint that this takes place in heaven. You have assumed it to be so.


Revelation 22:12 Jesus will give every man rewards according to his work when He comes.

from the Greek word bema, is an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth. Instead, the second coming brings with it God's judgment of unbelievers, usually expressed by some form of the Greek word krinô. Thus, it can be established from the biblical text that the bema-judgment applies only to church age believers, while the krinô-judgment is for unbelievers. The Bible indicates that each individual within the Body of Christ will appear before the bema in association with Christ's return for the church (i.e., at the pretrib rapture). Dr. Robert Gromacki notes: the judgment will occur immediately after the coming of Christ for believers. . . . Earlier, Paul wrote: "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come . . . (I Cor. 4:5).

You have assumed this to mean a pre-trib coming nothing in the text states that.

Thus, this is not an ongoing judgment that each Christian experiences on earth or right after death. It is a once-for-all event that occurs right after the appearing of Christ (I Thess. 4:13-18).2 Since the normal transaction of such an evaluation would require some passage of time, the pre-trib gap of seven years nicely accounts for such a requirement.

The passage of time is not an issue with God. How fast would the judgement of each individual have to be to get them all judged in 7 years? Our human reasoning of time is no argument to prove the necessity of a 7 year stay in heaven.

Quasar92 said:

1.THE BEMA JUDGMENT 2 Corinthians 5:10 teaches that all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven. This event, often known as the "bema judgment" (see also Rom. 14:10; 1 Cor. 3:10-15; 4:2-5) from the Greek word bema, is an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

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The text does not say this judgment occurs in heaven.

The timing of the event is found below.

Rev 11:18　 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."　

The event is described by Christ in John 5:27-30.

This is found right after the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15, which is the last trumpet found in the Book of Revelation.

Thomas Ice, PhD. is hardly an unbiased source of information on this topic.

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Quasar92 said:

The Scripturally supported OP refute your above unsupported opinions. The BEMA judgment of Christ pertains to believers only and will take place at the time of the believers physical death, or during the interim period between the rapture of the Church and the second coming of Christ.

The only other judgment to come after that, is the GWTJ which pertains to all others who ARE NOT believers, in Rev.20:11-15.


Quasar92

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It is not my opinion, the scriptures you provided (Rom. 14:10; 1 Cor. 3:10-15; 4:2-5) to do not state the judgment is in heaven. It is your opinion that they do. Show us from the provided text where heaven is the location and you will have my apology on this forum.


You have sited “Dr. Robert Gromacki” and his opinion and your opinion of Greek words but you cannot show us in the text you quoted anything about heaven.

Quasar92 said:

The article in the OP is by Thomas Ice, PhD, and there is no speculation about the BEMA judgment of believers by Christ being in heaven, axs recorded in 1 Cor.3:10-15.

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You may want to check your glasses again, because the word "heaven" is not in the passage.

1Co 3:9　 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building.　
1Co 3:10　 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.　
1Co 3:11　 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.　
1Co 3:12　 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,　
1Co 3:13　 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.　
1Co 3:14　 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.　
1Co 3:15　 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.　
1Co 3:16　 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

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Quasar92 said:

I was reading 1 Cor.3:10-15 before you were ever thought of.

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Not based on scripture...

Eph_1:4　 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

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Quasar92 said:

the judgment of a 0erson while he/she was in her human body, cannot be done until after he/she dies phsically.

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2Ti 4:1　 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:　

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Quasar92 said:

So the BEMA judgement is in heaven, as there is no support whatever for it being anywhere else in the Bible! Capiche?!

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Revelation 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Verse 18 does not describe a 7 year time of judgment in heaven.

1. There are not angry nations in heaven.

2. His wrath is come on the wicked of this earth.

3. The dead are judged and rewards given to the saints at the 7th trumpet with not even a hint at the location being in heaven. This is when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord when He comes vs 15. There is no 7 year period in this passage.

4. Also He destroys them that destroy the earth when He comes at the 7th trumpet not during a 7 year stay for the church in heaven. There is no 7 year stay for the church in heaven in scripture.

I am glad you have read the scriptures more than the rest of us but you have read far too much “Thomas Ice” and other misguided PhD’s.. .

Quasar92 said:

2. CHRIST'S BRIDE IN HEAVEN In conjunction with the bema judgment, Revelation 19:7-10 pictures the church as a bride who has been made ready for marriage (with "fine linen," which represents "the righteous acts of the saints") to her groom (Christ). The bride has already been clothed in preparation for her return at the second coming with Christ to the earth (Rev. 19:11-18). It follows that the church would already have to be complete and in heaven (because of the pre-trib rapture) in order to have been prepared in the way that Revelation 19 describes. This requires an interval of time which pretribulationism handles well. Apparently the bride's preparation and the bema judgment are different illustrations of the same event. The bema focuses on the process of judgment, while the bride pictures the results. Dr. Ed Hindson explains: Whatever view one holds in regard to our Lord's return, one thing is clear in prophetic Scripture, the marriage occurs in heaven (Rev. 19:7-9) before the triumphal return of Christ with His redeemed church at His side (Rev. 19:11-16). Non-pretribulationists are at a virtual loss to explain how the church got to heaven prior to returning with Christ at the battle of Armageddon. At best, some suggest they are "caught up" after the Tribulation only to return immediately with the Lord. This arrangement, however, leaves little or no time for the wedding!

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Quasar92 said:

2. CHRIST'S BRIDE IN HEAVEN In conjunction with the bema judgment, Revelation 19:7-10 pictures the church as a bride who has been made ready for marriage (with "fine linen," which represents "the righteous acts of the saints") to her groom (Christ). The bride has already been clothed in preparation for her return at the second coming with Christ to the earth (Rev. 19:11-18). It follows that the church would already have to be complete and in heaven (because of the pre-trib rapture) in order to have been prepared in the way that Revelation 19 describes. This requires an interval of time which pretribulationism handles well. Apparently the bride's preparation and the bema judgment are different illustrations of the same event.

To borrow a phrase from my friend Lamad try reading the scriptures without your “preconceived glasses” you see a pre-trib rapture in every passage because you want it to be there not because it is.

The bema focuses on the process of judgment, while the bride pictures the results. Dr. Ed Hindson explains: Whatever view one holds in regard to our Lord's return, one thing is clear in prophetic Scripture, the marriage occurs in heaven (Rev. 19:7-9) before the triumphal return of Christ with His redeemed church at His side (Rev. 19:11-16).

The passage does not say that. What it does say is “his wife hath made herself ready” and “Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb”. Every other commentary is speculation and assumption. There is no description of said supper, no location and no timing of the actual event taking place. Bottom line we are just not told those facts and because of that many just fill in the blanks with “well it is because”.

Non-pretribulationists are at a virtual loss to explain how the church got to heaven prior to returning with Christ at the battle of Armageddon.

False. Saints got to heaven through death. It is only assumed by the pre-trib camp any reference to saints in heaven are resurrected saints. My grandmother is in heaven with the Lord right now, that is her spirit, her body lies in the ground, she has not been resurrected as of yet. I'll also bet she is white.

At best, some suggest they are "caught up" after the Tribulation only to return immediately with the Lord. This arrangement, however, leaves little or no time for the wedding!

The wedding can take place where ever Christ is at the time it takes place. The scripture does not give us that information. When my daughter was married and I was waiting to walk her down the isle, I could have said “the bride hath made herself ready” and “blessed are those coming to the wedding reception” and neither event had yet taken place.

Quasar92 said:

3. THE 24 ELDERS IN HEAVENThe 24 elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are best understood as representative of the church. Dr. Charles Ryrie explains: In the New Testament, elders as the highest officials in the church do represent the whole church (cf. Acts 15:6; 20:28), and in the Old Testament, twenty-four elders were appointed by King David to represent the entire Levitical priesthood (I Chron. 24). When those twenty-four elders met together in the temple precincts in Jerusalem, the entire priestly house was represented. Thus it seems more likely that the elders represent redeemed human beings, . . . the church is included and is thus in heaven before the tribulation begins.4 If these elders refer to the church, then it would mean at least two things: 1) It would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the tribulation and would require a chronological gap for them to perform their heavenly duties during the seven-year tribulation. 2) It would also show that the completed church was already in heaven before events of the tribulation begin.

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So you concede that if the elders do not refer to the church then there is no necessity of a pre-trib rapture?


There are several other theories on who the elders are and on another thread I outlined who I believe they are with detailed reasons. Without rehashing all of that I’ll just ask you one question.


1. How do you explain both the elders and the four beasts singing the new song, claiming to be redeemed by His blood and claiming to be made priests and reigning with Him?


The KJV and others clearly says the four beasts are co-equal on these points as the elders. I know of no PhD that claims the 4 beast represent the church in any way.


If you will simply read this passage in the ASV all of this confusion goes away, but with it the argument that the elders are representative of the church.

Quasar92 said:

IMO, it is no major problem to understand, that the judgment of a 0erson while he/she was in her human body, cannot be done until after he/she dies phsically. Would you not agree with that statement. With that having been said, please show me where Jesus BEMA judgment is to be held on earth. Which provides full support for it to be held in heaven, during the seven year interval between the rapture of the Church and the second coming of Christ.


Quasar92

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Quasar said:

IMO, it is no major problem to understand, that the judgment of a 0erson while he/she was in her human body, cannot be done until after he/she dies phsically. Would you not agree with that statement.

I would add “or changed at His coming”. Then I could agree with your statement.

With that having been said, please show me where Jesus BEMA judgment is to be held on earth.

Revelation 11:15-18 2 Tim 4:1

Which provides full support for it to be held in heaven, during the seven year interval between the rapture of the Church and the second coming of Christ.

No, you have assumed all of that.

Quasar92 said:

4. THE JUDGMENT OF GENTILESIt would be impossible for the judgment of the Gentiles to take place after the second coming if the rapture and second coming are not separated by a gap of time. How would both saved and unsaved, still in their natural bodies, be separated in judgment if all living believers are translated at the second coming? This would be impossible if the translation takes place at the second coming, but it is solved through a pretribulational gap. Dr. John F. Walvoord points out that if "the translation took place in connection with the second coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually sets up His throne on earth (Matt. 25:31)."5 Once again, such a "problem" is solved by taking a pretrib position with its gap of at least seven years.

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Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Quasar92 said:

5. POPULATING THE MILLENNIUM At the second coming, non-martyred Believers who come to faith in Christ during the tribulation are not translated, but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming, building houses, and the bearing of children (Isa. 65:20-25) during the subsequent millennium. This would be impossible if all saints were translated at the second coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach. Because pretribulationists have at least a seven-year interval between the removal of the church at the rapture and the return of Christ to the earth, this is not a problem because millions of people will be saved during the interval and thus be available to populate the millennium in their natural bodies in order to fulfill Scripture. Dr. Steven McAvoy concludes: The fact that the judgment of the nations occurs before the millennium and thus provides for the population of the millennial earth, constitutes a strong argument for pretribulationism. For a posttribulational rapture would leave no sheep for this judgment. If pretribulationalists are correct in placing this judgment before the millennium then posttribulationalism suffers a serious blow.6

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Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

Quasar92 said:

7. ISRAEL'S FUTUREA time interval is needed so that God's program for the church, a time when Jew and Gentile are united in one body (cf. Eph. 2-3), will not become commingled in any way with His unfinished and future plan for Israel during the tribulation. Dr. Renald Showers notes: All other views of the Rapture have the church going through at least part of the 70th week, meaning that all other views mix God's 70-weeks program for Israel and Jerusalem together with His program for the church.7 A gap of time is needed after God completes His program with the church, so that He may conclude His plans for Israel. Only with an interval of seven years, as postulated by pretribulationists, can God's program be harmonized in a non-conflicting manner. CONCLUSIONThe pretribulational rapture of the church not only fulfills a biblical need to see a distinction between the translation of church-age saints at the rapture, before the second coming, but it also handles without difficulty the necessity of a time-gap, which harmonizes a number of future biblical events. This requirement of a seven-year gap of time adds support to the likelihood that pretribulationism best reflects the biblical point of view.

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I’m sure BABerean2 can untangle this mess for you.