Speak in Tongues - essential :

1stcenturylady said:

Are you saying speaking in tongues is for preaching to foreigners?

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As we look to how the Gospel was spread in the very early church, yes there were those gifted to speak in languages they did not previously know. The text of Acts chapter 2 makes this clear.

The question we should ask I think is why was it important every Jew (of Palestine and the Diaspora) hear the Gospel that day? It was to fulfill the command of Christ Jesus:

Luke 24:

44 And he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything that is written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, 46 and said to them, “Thus it is written that the Christ would suffer and would rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance and the forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in his name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I am sending out what was promised by my Father upon you, but you stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

The first commitment was always to the lost sheep of Israel:

But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (Matthew 15:24)

It was Shavu'ot (The Feast of First Fruits) and this was a holy convocation in accordance with Leviticus 21:15-16, 21. Thus called by Greek speaking Jews "Pentecost."

PENTECOST ("fiftieth"):

Name given by the Greek-speaking Jews to the festival which occurred fifty days (ἡ πεντηκόστη, sc. ἡΜέρα = "Ḥag Ḥamishshim Yom"; comp. Lev. xxiii. 16) after the offering of the barley sheaf during the Passover feast (Tobit ii. 1; II Macc. xii. 32; Josephus, "Ant." iii. 10, § 6; I Cor. xvi. 8; Philo, "De Septenario," §21). The Feast of the Fiftieth Day has been a many-sided one (comp. Book of Jubilees, vi. 21: "This feast is twofold and of a double nature"), and as a consequence has been called by many names. In the Old Testament it is called the "Feast of Harvest" ("Ḥag ha-Ḳaẓir"; Ex. xxiii. 16) and the "Feast of Weeks" ("Ḥag Shabu'ot"; ib. xxxiv. 22; Deut. xvi. 10; II Chron. viii. 13; Aramaic, "Ḥagga di-Shebu'aya," Men. 65a; Greek, έορτὴ έΒδοΜάδων), also the "Day of the First-Fruits" ("Yom ha-Bikkurim"; Num. xxviii. 26; ήΜέρα τῶν νεῶν, LXX.). In the later literature it was called also the "closing festival" ("'aẓeret"; Ḥag. ii. 4; Aramaic, "'aẓarta"; Pes. 42b; Greek, ἄσαρθα Josephus, l.c.). It is called, too, the "closing season of the Passover" ("'aẓeret shel Pesaḥ"; Pesiḳ. xxx. 193) to distinguish it from the seventh day of Passover and from the closing day of the Feast of Tabernacles, i.e., the end of the fruit harvest (Lev. xxiii. 36; Num. xxix. 35; Deut. xvi. 8).
(By: Kaufmann Kohler, J. L. Magnus, Executive Committee of the Editorial Board., Judah David Eisenstein)
PENTECOST - JewishEncyclopedia.com

As a holy convocation, the Diaspora Jews assembled from throughout the known world. In Acts 2:9-11 we are given a wide sampling of Diaspora Jewish nationalities assembling in Jerusalem for the feast. Perhaps many of which witnessed the Passion of Christ during Passover week.

Assembled to celebrate and observe the feast in Jerusalem, many of these Jews had a native language which was neither Hebrew/Aramaic nor the lingua franca of the Roman Empire which was Greek. Thus when these Diaspora Jews heard their own language spoken by Galileans, they were quite taken and amazed but more so by the apostles proclaiming "the wonderful works of God" (Acts 2:11).

When the mockers accused the apostles of being drunk, Peter corrected them and reminded them of the words of the prophet Joel. That don't be surprised we bring you this message with signs and wonders and miracles. He then claims they all knew of the wonders, healings and miracles of Jesus Christ and then gets to the matter at hand:

Acts 2: NKJV

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

Note, Peter is no longer just addressing the mockers who he addresses as Judeans and all who dwell in Jerusalem. He is now addressing "men of Israel." That is everyone assembled for the holy convocation of the festival. This includes Diaspora Jews who had a foreign native language.

The answer is 'yes' in the case of Acts chapter 2, Jews from other parts of the world heard Peter and the apostles speaking "the wonderful works of God" (the Gospel) in their own native language.

For a great many years, Charles Wesley's
"O FOR A THOUSAND
TONGUES
TO SING MY GREAT REDEEMER'S PRAISE"
was the #1 hymn in Methodist Hymnal !!

lol
although I doubt Charles Wesley had "charismatic Tongues" in mind specifically...

It is good to look NOT ONLY at Acts ch 2 (Pentecost)
but to all Paul's references in epistles about "diverse kinds of tongues"

"although I speak with the tongues OF MEN AND OF ANGELS"

"do ALL speak with Tongues?" -- a rhetorical ? with an assumed NO answer, which negates the "essential to all" issue

Many cessionists think Acts chapter two is the Be All and End All on New Testament references to Tongues -- it is NOT.

Look at all the verses - the Day of Pentecost was JUST THE BEGINNING of "diverse kinds of Tongues", and technically, Pentecost was a matter of the visiting Jews
HEARING
the disciples speaking in their own language;
and yes, the disciples did SPEAK IN THOSE LANGUAGES

But what happenned that day was different from what Paul later describes as " a message in Tongues FOLLOWED BY an interpretation (in the language of the hearers)"

diverse kinds of tongues -- of men AND OF ANGELS

Holy Spirit is not going to be PUT IN A BOX and compartmentalized by men who say this or that either PASSED AWAY or is NEVER COMIN

swordsman1 said:

No, but people here are using Mark 16:17-18 to claim that speaking in tongues is for all believers. If that is so, then the other abilities in that list such picking up deadly snakes and drinking poison must also be for all believers. Are believers today immune from being bitten by poisonous snakes?

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They are all for believers.

They are accessed by faith when needed. No one suggests that we tempt God by picking up snakes or swallowing poison.

Faith comes by hearing and believing the Word of God. That's why undermining the Word of God concerning these things being available is so damaging to the faith of believers.

God will give the Holy Spirit to any believer who asks and they need not worry about receiving a counterfeit.

This is "post" salvation just as are the examples in the Book of Acts and that of the Lord's receiving the Holy Spirit in preparation for ministry.

Marvin Knox said:

damaging to the faith of believers.

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not only that, Marvin, but possibly skirts the edges of Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit

Marvin Knox said:

They are all for believers.

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Then how do you explain the fact that none of them, or hardly any of them, receive most of these gifts?

Albion said:

Then how do you explain the fact that none of them, or hardly any of them, receive most of these gifts?

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"And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith." Matthew 13:58

Hence my admonition to some about undermining the faith of others who may want or need to access the various things available through faith.

Faith for access can only come by being taught what the Bible says about these things.

There is no danger in any true believer praying for the Holy Spirit because he sees Him given post salvation in the Book of Acts. There is no danger in any true believer praying for the Holy Spirit because he sees a prayer language application in the Book of First Corinthians.

God isn't in the business of giving rocks and snakes to His children just because they might mistake the meaning of a scripture - even if it were true that he had been mistaken.

These silly warnings about the "dangers" of tongues are not only not needed - they are potentially harmful to certain believers.

We see this same principle of needless undermining of faith when it comes to healing.

When a person is in need of healing and trying his best to lay hold of the Word of God by faith - immediately out comes the bogus "thorn" in Paul's side analogy to show that God not only doesn't always honor faith but He sometimes even gives physical illness to believers for a good reason.

Hog wash.

Marvin Knox said:

They are all for believers.

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So all believers are also immune from poisonous snake bites then?

Marvin Knox said:

They are accessed by faith when needed.

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Faith is not mentioned as a condition in Mark 16:17-18. You are putting words into Jesus's mouth.

Marvin Knox said:

No one suggests that we tempt God by picking up snakes or swallowing poison.

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Nor am I. What if we are accidentally bitten by a deadly snake? We suffer no harm?

Marvin Knox said:

God isn't in the business of giving rocks and snakes to His children just because they might mistake the meaning of a scripture - even if it were true that he had been mistaken.

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Marvin, no argument here.

I am approaching this thread from the "hermeneutic" of Gospel. Meaning the gifts of the Holy Spirit, all of them, are for the primary purpose for us to complete our airborne mission of the Great Commission---Preach/spread the Gospel. The Gospel in the NT came in word and in Power. That continues today.

Which allows us to take a step back and those who are gifted with discernment to look at how we as a Church are using the gifts given to us.

The most important of the passages on the gifts of the Holy Spirit is in 1 Corinthians 12 and we all should be aware the Church i.e. the ekklesia is cited as Paul as a Body with many parts and we each have a function within the Body.

1 Corinthians 12: NKJV

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.


12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.

15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?

20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

swordsman1 said:

So all believers are also immune from poisonous snake bites then?

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It depends on their faith.

swordsman1 said:

Faith is not mentioned as a condition in Mark 16:17-18. You are putting words into Jesus's mouth.

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For starters - I never said that Mark 16 mentioned faith.

I put no words in the mouth of Jesus and I ask you to provide the post where I did so.

swordsman1 said:

......... What if we are accidentally bitten by a deadly snake? We suffer no harm?

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It depends on your faith as per the clear teaching of the scriptures.

Marvin Knox said:

It depends on their faith.

For starters - I never said that Mark 16 mentioned faith.

I put no words in the mouth of Jesus and I ask you to provide the post where I did so.

It depends on your faith as per the clear teaching of the scriptures.

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You said the abilities listed in Mark 16:17-18 are "accessed by faith when needed". Where does it say that?

Did the disciples at Pentecost have faith to speak in tongues before they could do it?
Did Cornelius household have faith to speak in tongues before they could do it?
Did the 12 Ephesians have faith to speak in tongues before they could do it?

No. None of them had even heard about tongues. They just started doing it.

According to one source from a seminar at a Wheaton college theology conference:

• There were 631 million Pentecostals in 2014 comprising nearly 1/4 of all Christians.
• There were only 63 million Pentecostals in 1970, and the number is expected to reach 800 million by 2025.
• 2/3 of Pentecostals are in the majority world.
• Classic Pentecostalism only accounts for 4% of North America and 2% of Europe (though that percentage would be higher if you only counted those who attend church regularly)

Charismatic/Pentecostal movements comprise the most fervent and successful evangelistic worldwide outreaches in these last days.

It also comprises the most fervent and active portion of the church in general.

It shouldn't really surprise anyone who understands how destructive undermining faith can be that the doubters are far more prevalent in North America and Europe than they are in the more "simple" parts of the world.

I would suggest that those who major on undermining tongues are not only swimming against the tide. They may even be fighting the Holy Spirit Himself.

In the words of Gamaliel in Acts 5:

"So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.”

Marvin Knox said:

"And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith." Matthew 13:58

Hence my admonition to some about undermining the faith of others who may want or need to access the various things available through faith.

Faith for access can only come by being taught what the Bible says about these things.

There is no danger in any true believer praying for the Holy Spirit because he sees Him given post salvation in the Book of Acts. There is no danger in any true believer praying for the Holy Spirit because he sees a prayer language application in the Book of First Corinthians.

God isn't in the business of giving rocks and snakes to His children just because they might mistake the meaning of a scripture - even if it were true that he had been mistaken.

These silly warnings about the "dangers" of tongues are not only not needed - they are potentially harmful to certain believers.

We see this same principle of needless undermining of faith when it comes to healing.

When a person is in need of healing and trying his best to lay hold of the Word of God by faith - immediately out comes the bogus "thorn" in Paul's side analogy to show that God not only doesn't always honor faith but He sometimes even gives physical illness to believers for a good reason.

Hog wash.

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You don't seem to have addressed my question. If these gifts--not just tongues speaking--were what you say, we'd have people drinking poison and not being hurt, raising the dead, and all the rest. But we do not.

To say, "they need faith," or something like that, might explain why everyone around us isn't doing it, but it surely doesn't explain why NO ONE is doing it.

"These signs shall follow..."

wait a minnit -- even if Paul on Malta bit by a viper and didnt die -- if that was THE ONLY INSTANCE of such a thing ever to be -- Jesus' words in Mk 16 still are confirmed

Paul raising from the dead a young man that fell out a window; even if such a thing occurred only once, Mark 16 is verified in that regard

and we DO have healings
they DO INDEED OCCUR

they didnt "pass away"

Anto9us said:

"These signs shall follow..."

wait a minnit -- even if Paul on Malta bit by a viper and didnt die -- if that was THE ONLY INSTANCE of such a thing ever to be -- Jesus' words in Mk 16 still are confirmed

Paul raising from the dead a young man that fell out a window; even if such a thing occurred only once, Mark 16 is verified in that regard

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The scriptures do not indicate that only Paul or an Apostle or a bishop or someone else like that can exhibit the gifts. More important, today's Pentecostals and proponents of tongues-speaking insist that THE GIFTS are either for everyone, or are evidence of the Holy Spirit gifting the people in their congregations, or are required if one is a true believer. The title of this thread itself says "essential."

To say that St. Paul may have shown a couple of the gifts proves nothing about this. The point is, quite obviously, NOT that there will be a person every so often who might demonstrate one or two actions that we might consider. These things are supposed to be a staple in the life of the church!

Saint JOHN said:

Absolutely !!!

Receive the Holy Ghost and the immediate outward evidence speaking in tongues as the spirit gives direct undefileable contact with GOD !

Just as in the beginning ..Acts 2v4.. included Mary the mother of Jesus....

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (MUST)

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth....according to the word, to pray in the Spirit :

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


the first 2 is your part...the third is Gods seal of approval !

Holy Ghost + speaking in tongues .. no tongues no Spirit..

Ro 8:9 .............Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Not to be confused with the demonstration IN THE CHURCH (max 3) to show you are who you say you are !!
when you pray..go to your closet, private place and pray...


confess Jesus Christ..his way...

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

package deal

obtain the Grace,Mercy and Faith that Jesus Christ has made avaliable to whomsoever will..

or have the adversaries religious confusion..just words no power !

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8 To some people the Spirit gives a message of wisdom. To others the same Spirit gives a message of knowledge. 9 To others the same Spirit gives faith. To others that one Spirit gives gifts of healing. 10 To others he gives the power to do miracles. To others he gives the ability to prophesy. To others he gives the ability to tell the spirits apart. To others he gives the ability to speak in different kinds of languages they had not known before. And to still others he gives the ability to explain what was said in those languages. 11 All the gifts are produced by one and the same Spirit. He gives gifts to each person, just as he decides.

And yet, the tongue talking crowd pulls out ONE of these gifts of the Spirit and exalts it above the rest marginalizing the very walk of all others. That alone should tell us where this teaching comes from!

Anto9us said:

"These signs shall follow..."

wait a minnit -- even if Paul on Malta bit by a viper and didnt die -- if that was THE ONLY INSTANCE of such a thing ever to be -- Jesus' words in Mk 16 still are confirmed

Paul raising from the dead a young man that fell out a window; even if such a thing occurred only once, Mark 16 is verified in that regard

and we DO have healings
they DO INDEED OCCUR

they didnt "pass away"

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Hey Bro! Glad you are back!

Most posting here are not cessationists. I for one am not, cannot be because of what I have witnessed. The main thrust of this OP is 'one must speak in tongues to be considered baptized in the Holy Spirit.'

According to the OP that leaves me high and dry I guess. My main point in this thread has been there are gifts plural and we get these gifts by the will of God (1 Corinthians 12:11).

I will say, the gift of God's Grace taking a damned destitute soul washing it clean in regeneration is a miracle. Those who experience this miracle of regeneration call upon Jesus as Lord. And as we know:

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3).

Praise be to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

swordsman1 said:

You said the abilities listed in Mark 16:17-18 are "accessed by faith when needed". Where does it say that?

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Aaahh - the old "where does it say that exact thing" argument.

The principle of it being done according to your faith is all through the N.T. scriptures.

Nevertheless - when the Son of Man returns - will He find faith on earth? Hopefully in my life He will. That includes my accessing by faith the things He has told me about in the scriptures.

swordsman1 said:

Did the disciples at Pentecost have faith to speak in tongues before they could do it?
Did Cornelius household have faith to speak in tongues before they could do it?
Did the 12 Ephesians have faith to speak in tongues before they could do it?
No. None of them had even heard about tongues. They just started doing it.

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They were open to whatever the Holy Spirit did. They did not have to contend with Christians warning them that whatever happened may not have been from God.

I do not subscribe to or support the way that these things are often and even usually administered in Pentecostal circles.

I do support the idea of showing new believers that these things were post salvation and that they should communicate with God that they are willing and available for any manifestation of the Spirit He wishes to visit upon them.

Regarding "praying in the Spirit" - we are told that we are to step out and not only pray with the understanding but also pray with the Spirit.

I did that by faith originally after seeing it in the scriptures and I have done it since then whenever I want to.

I did not, however, receive tongues upon believing and I did not receive tongues at my baptism.

As you say, it was up to the Lord.

Although a prior teaching might have helped in being more open to the things of the Spirit earlier on, I did not receive tongues until I stepped out on faith based on what I saw in the scriptures - admittedly with the help of others.

Albion said:

You don't seem to have addressed my question.

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My quote did answer your question. You apparently don't like what the answer from scripture leave you with.

Albion said:

If these gifts--not just tongues speaking--were what you say, we'd have people drinking poison and not being hurt, raising the dead, and all the rest. But we do not.

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Admittedly we don't see it much in our particular circles. Elsewhere we do. You need to get out more.

Albion said:

To say, "they need faith," or something like that, might explain why everyone around us isn't doing it, but it surely doesn't explain why NO ONE is doing it.

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"NO ONE" is pretty all inclusive. Maybe you do get out a lot - apparently "EVERYWHERE".

Ken Rank said:

8 To some people the Spirit gives a message of wisdom. To others the same Spirit gives a message of knowledge. 9 To others the same Spirit gives faith. To others that one Spirit gives gifts of healing. 10 To others he gives the power to do miracles. To others he gives the ability to prophesy. To others he gives the ability to tell the spirits apart. To others he gives the ability to speak in different kinds of languages they had not known before. And to still others he gives the ability to explain what was said in those languages. 11 All the gifts are produced by one and the same Spirit. He gives gifts to each person, just as he decides.
And yet, the tongue talking crowd pulls out ONE of these gifts of the Spirit and exalts it above the rest marginalizing the very walk of all others.

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We aren't talking here specifically about the gift of being able to speak different kinds of languages. That is at the discretion of the Holy Spirit as you say.

Ken Rank said:

That alone should tell us where this teaching comes from!

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And where exactly, pray tell, does this teaching come from?

Marvin Knox said:

Aaahh - the old "where does it say that exact thing" argument.

The principle of it being done according to your faith is all through the N.T. scriptures.

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Jesus never said those abilities in Mark 16 were dependent on your level of faith. As I said you are putting words in Jesus's mouth. You cannot use one or two miracles where Jesus "According to your faith..." and then apply it to everything else including the giving of spiritual gifts. That is amazingly presumptuous. Nowhere does it say speaking in tongues or any other gift is dependent on your level of faith.

Marvin Knox said:

They were open to whatever the Holy Spirit did. They did not have to contend with Christians warning them that whatever happened may not have been from God.

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Again where does it say that? It is most presumptuous to say the new Gentile converts had a higher level of faith than the millions of Christians who never speak in tongues, including the spiritual greats such as Calvin, Luther, Spurgeon, etc.