Redeming Nestorius

DamianWarS

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Nestorius is accused of proposing an early form of dualism and is labeled a heretic of the church. But this is really too strong of language for him and his position about Christ was simply widely misunderstood. Although rejected as orthodox today he openly wrestled and questioned traditional theology and tried to reconcile Christ as both God and man. Nestorius' theory is a laudable attempt to preserve intact and complete the two natures, Godhead and manhood of Christ.

Nestorius was fiercely opposed by Cyril of Alexandria who rebuttal his position with letters directed at Nestorius while at the same time presenting his own position. Nestorius was called to the council of ephesus to defend himself but instead it was a witch hunt meant only to depose him and label him a heretic. Nestorius is quoted saying "I was summoned by Cyril who assembled the Council, by Cyril who presided. Who was judge? Cyril. Who was accuser? Cyril. Who was bishop of Rome? Cyril!!! Cyril was everything.". It's no surprise he didn't even bother showing up and it's no surprise he was called a heretic.

His position was that the incarnation was t̶w̶o̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶s̶o̶p̶o̶n̶[two hypostases] (early development of "nature") conjoined together to form one prosopon, he preferred the term conjunction over a union because he felt a union suggested the divinity of Christ as a created being trying to refute Arianism. He refused the term Theotokos (Mother of God) for Mary and said Christotokos (Mother of Christ) was a more theologically correct term for him which was a platform for his theory of who Christ was. This was looked at from the church as an attack on Christ by dividing Christ in two but in his defence Nestorius was trying to reconcile the person of Christ in his human understanding even if he did get it wrong.

He was the see of Constantinople so certainly not a small player, his demise was his obstinate position and pride. Cyril was no different but it turned into a west vs east thing and one had to loose which meant complete excommunication. Cyril's position later was thought of an expression of nicene Christianity but in an ironic twist Nestorius can be seen as an early advocate to the 2 natures of Christ better articulated in the council of Chalcedon (because of this we are Chalcedonian Christians). He wrestled with the logic and while commendable missed the mark but he certainly wasn't a heretic and was trying to defined nicene Christianity.

Nestorius was exiled and a place he found himself was in the Arabian desert where nestorianism later had a following (later he went to Egypt). In fact Muhammad's wife khadija is said to be a nestorian Christian. The implications are had both Nestorius and Cyril worked together on the early doctrine of Christ rather than head hunt each other the early church of the Arabian Peninsula may have been exposed to system in communion with orthodox Christianity rather in opposition to it which left it unchecked and open to heresies. Muhammad's view of Christianity certainly was nicene so I wonder where it fell apart but Nestorius no doubt continued to be obstinate and probably resented the church. Had Cyril and Nestorius been more eccumenical perhaps the early Christian exposure in the AP would have been better received and had better accountability. Perhaps Muhammad himself could have been an advocate for orthodox Christianity.

It's a shame Nestorius is demonized so much. He was stubborn and opinionated but so were most of the bishops. He should have never been treated as he was and should be posthumously restored in communion with the church; rather considered a heretic he should be considered an early Father of the the doctrine of nature of Christ.
 
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Karl.C

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Nestorius is accused of proposing an early form of dualism and is labeled a heretic of the church. But this is really too strong of language for him and his position about Christ was simply widely misunderstood. Although rejected as orthodox today he openly wrestled and questioned traditional theology and tried to reconcile Christ as both God and man. Nestorius' theory is a laudable attempt to preserve intact and complete the two natures, Godhead and manhood of Christ.

Nestorius was fiercely opposed by Cyril of Alexandria who rebuttal his position with letters directed at Nestorius while at the same time presenting his own position. Nestorius was called to the council of ephesus to defend himself but instead it was a witch hunt meant only to depose him and label him a heretic. Nestorius is quoted saying "I was summoned by Cyril who assembled the Council, by Cyril who presided. Who was judge? Cyril. Who was accuser? Cyril. Who was bishop of Rome, Cyril". It's no surprise he didn't even bother showing up and it's no surprise he was called a heretic.
I couldn't find your supposed quote from Nestorius anywhere. Given Cyril was never a bishop of Rome and was the Patriarch of Alexandria I suspect a forgery...

Please provide direct reference/s to your source/s.

That aside I do believe Nestorius got a bum wrap, as did the supposed Nestorians. I remember reading that after Chalcedon Nestorius declared something to the effect "thats what I've been saying all along" and I vaguely remember that a 19th century discovery of Nestorius' writings vindicated him... I'll have to get back to you on that score...
 
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DamianWarS

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I couldn't find your supposed quote from Nestorius anywhere. Given Cyril was never a bishop of Rome and was the Patriarch of Alexandria I suspect a forgery...

Please provide direct reference/s to your source/s.

That aside I do believe Nestorius got a bum wrap, as did the supposed Nestorians. I remember reading that after Chalcedon Nestorius declared something to the effect "thats what I've been saying all along" and I vaguely remember that a 19th discovery of Nestorius' writings vindicated him... I'll have to get back to you on that score...

Cyril of course was bishop of Alexandria (not Rome) but Celestines did not attend the council and Cyril was authorized by him to excommunicate Nestorius should he not recant his position so he represented Rome. The source is from Nestorius himself from his book "The Book of Heraclides of Damascus" written to defend his life and positions (I have not read it). Nestorius died in 452 and the council of Chalcedon was in 451. It is possible he commented on Chalcedon but it was probably a version of the council told to him and no doubt Nestorius himself probably softened up a little on the issue.`

I'm not a Nestorian but I do see specifically that because nestorianism took root in the AP the church there was not accountable to a greater body and perhaps a b*stardized version of nestorianism was actually happening which allowed greater heresies to happen. Nestorius was a Nicene Christian and believed in the trinity and of course the divinity of Christ. He shouldn't have been so far off the mark yet Muhammad's exposure to Christianity seems to be something else and had gross misunderstanding of the trinity and Jesus. Perhaps if Nestorius was in communion with the church the emerging church in the AP could have been in better check. This may have resulted in Muhammad embracing orthodox Christianity and in communion with the Church rather than promoting a heretical version of a b*stardized nestorianism.

edit: it seems Nestorius may have died c. 450 possibly before Chalcedon so he could not have commented on the council but some records indicate 452 meaning he may have had opportunity to comment on it.
 
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Philip_B

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Nestorius is accused of proposing an early form of dualism and is labeled a heretic of the church. But this is really too strong of language for him and his position about Christ was simply widely misunderstood. Although rejected as orthodox today he openly wrestled and questioned traditional theology and tried to reconcile Christ as both God and man. Nestorius' theory is a laudable attempt to preserve intact and complete the two natures, Godhead and manhood of Christ.
I think that the evidence is that Nestorius had a deal of problem accepting the idea that the eternally existing Son of God who existed from before the beginning could have been carried in the womb of the a Virgin. See Matthew 1:18-25, Luke 1:26-45, Luke 2:25-35.

The Council of Ephesus certainly declared that the teaching of Nestorius was indeed heresy, and there is no doubt that Cyril of Alexandria was an opponent of Nestorius. It is possible that there may have been some politics going on at the time, and the Antiochian Church may have been a little late, however it is also clear that they accepted the position of the council the Patriarch of Antioch and signed off on the Council, including the rejection of the Nestorian version of the Creed if the Council of Constantinople which they had modified to suit their position. This indeed was the council that proclaimed anathemas on those to added to or took away from the Creed.

Cyril's christology was no doubt under closer scrutiny at the Council of Chalcedon and the Alexandrian Community may have been a little late, and this represents the start of the separation between the Oriental Orthodox and the rest of the Church. The Alexandrian position was understood by many to be monophysite, whereas a detailed understanding would give one to see it as miaphysite.

Much of this material was canvassed in the documents of the ongoing discussions between the Anglicans and the Oriental Orthodox, and if you are interested in this area I suggest a good read of the agreed statement on Christology which may be found here. http://www.anglicancommunion.org/me...greed-statement-on-christology-cairo-2014.pdf

Nestorianism

Essence

Belief that Jesus Christ was a natural union between the Flesh and the Word, thus not identical, to the divine Son of God.

History
Advanced by Nestorius (386–450), Patriarch of Constantinople from 428–431. The doctrine was informed by Nestorius’ studies under Theodore of Mopsuestia at the School of Antioch.

Condemned at the First Council of Ephesus in 431 and the Council of Chalcedon in 451, leading to the Nestorian Schism. Cyril of Alexandria was the led the opposition to Nestorian teaching.

Nestorius rejected the title Theotokos for the Virgin Mary, and proposed Christotokos as more suitable. Many of Nestorius’ supporters relocated to Sassanid Persia, where they affiliated with the local Christian community, known as the Church of the East. Over the next decades the Church of the East became increasingly Nestorian in doctrine, leading it to be known alternately as the Nestorian Church.

The development of a Nestorian Creed (A modified version of the Nicene Creed of Constantinople) was also condemned at the Council of Ephesus and pronounced anathemas on any who would add to or subject from the Nicene Creed.

What’s Wrong?
The principal problem with Nestorianism is that it denies the incarnation, ultimatrely to say that God did not become man in the way that the Gospels teach.

See Matthew 1:18-25, Luke 1:26-45, Luke 2:25-35.
 
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Karl.C

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I came across a doc billed as an Extract of a Discussion which the Emperor Justinian had with Paul the Bishop of Nisibis, who was a Nestorian. If Paul.N's argument is representative of Nestorius' then I perceive his error from an Orthodox viewpoint...
JUSTINIAN: Dialogue with Paul of Nisibis

The keywords:
prosopon (face=actor's mask); hypostasis (the concrete reality of an individual=self identity); ousia (the concrete reality of a group=the agreed definition of a genus); physis (nature=what is observable about a thing that classifies what a thing is).

Orthodox word use rules:
1. a hypostasis can have mutiple prosopa (eg: recognizable as son, husband, father, servant, master, king etc), but a particular prosopon only ever refers to one hypostasis (eg: I (hypostasis) am their father (prosopon); this (prosopon) is Zeus (hypostasis)).
2. a hypostasis can exhibited mutiple physes, therefore may possess multiple ousia.
3. a physis can only exhibit one ousia
4. an ousia might be the personal possession of multiple hypostases, but must be possessed by at least one hypostasis to have existence.

nb: if a hypostasis exhibits multiple physes, then as a personal possession he/she/it retains multiple ousia. That is: group memberships (ousia or physis) are not confounded, but remain distinct. Thus: in respect of his self confession (self identification) the Son is homoousios (same ousia) with his Father in respect of his theotes (state of being God), and homoousios with his mother, and therefore us, in respect of his humanity. Likewise. the Father, Son & Spirit in exhibiting alike physes demonstrate their tri-unity in the Godhead (ousia). However, the Son also demonstrates his unity with us through exhibiting our common physis.

It is all easily understood once one gets use to the terminology.

Now in the aforementioned doc, Paul.N argues...

16. ...no one is able to hear and believe that the human nature of a man is created and his hypostasis is uncreated. For then the hypostasis would be alien to the nature, and not in it; and also the nature would be alien to the hypostasis by its not being known and seen in it. For the nature of Paul is not in the hypostasis of angels since his nature is in humanity. Also the hypostases of Gabriel and Michael are not seen and known in the human nature, but every hypostasis is known according to its nature. And every nature which exists is known and seen by sensation, perception, and the contemplation of the mind in its own hypostasis.

The bits I've highlighted in blue is where I think Paul.N is in error. For instance: I perceive me [the hypostasis], primarily as "me" [self indentity/self definition], not something else. Others will classify me according to their observation of me (my physes conveyed via my prosopa). That is: generally we [hypostases] don't contemplate our own physis, we individually do what we are inclined to do without definition. Albeit, peer pressure might have us do things within a defined definition. Thus it is not "me" (hypostasis) doing the definition but what is external to "me" is forced upon me and thus is unnatural to "me".

In Paul.N saying "the hypostasis would be alien to the nature" he seems to be following Plato where "the forms" (ousia) precede and are external to the actualisation (a hypostasis). Aristotle more correctly advocated that "the forms" are only discerned by observation of the primary substance (a hypostasis). This is more in accord with scripture wherein God formed Adam from the dust of the earth, establishing his hypostasis, then imbued it with his attributes and breathed into it creating a living soul called "adam" (man). from this prototype mankind (an ousia) sprang forth.

In Paul.N saying "alien to the nature, and not in it" we have an absurdity similar to that which Arius complained about concerning one Heiracas' teaching of "two wicks in the same oil". Sounds OK until one realises it makes the wicks (hypostases) subordinate to the oil (ousia). In Paul.N's case he makes the hypostasis subordinate to the physis. The idea is pure Platonism. Ousia is a possession of an hypostasis and physis is the exhibition of that possession.

If Paul.N's argument is representative of Nestorius' then I can well understand why Cyril went mental... Nearly 100 years before Nestorius' ousting from the Church, the Church had to contend with the Arians. I detect redirected Arian argument in Paul.N's arguments eg: "no one is able to hear and believe that the human nature of a man is created and his hypostasis is uncreated". Compare Eusebius.N's complaint to Paulinus of Tyre that "We have never heard that there are two unbegotten beings...". (Fourth Century Christianity Home » Letter of Eusebius of Nicomedia to Paulinus of Tyre). Surely Eusebius.N & Paul.N for that matter were aware of Ignatius' teaching of the "generate and ingenerate... son of Mary and Son of God, first passible and then impassible..." (?) (Ignatius of Antioch to the Ephesians (Lightfoot translation)).

I'll leave my critique at this point and get back to searching for Nestorius' extant writings.
 
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Karl.C

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Thanks for the info. I had a look at the Church of the East about 10 years ago, but need a refresh on the Nestorian issues...

Nestorius, The Bazaar of Heracleides is avaiable online...


Book 1, Part 3 is interesting...
Nestorius, The Bazaar of Heracleides (1925) pp. 96-130. Book 1. Part 3.

Nestorius. [This is] like those who, being rebuked for the violation of oaths, would convince by oaths that they have not violated oaths and make no convincing reply concerning their acts. For they were rebuked [and asked]: 'For what reason have you transgressed the general rule and not waited for all the Council, as also you were summoned all together?' And they returned not any answer to this; and: 'for what reason, in addition thereto, have not the bishops who were present taken counsel in common with their colleagues / who were with them as to whether you ought all to have waited?' To this also they answered nothing. 'For what reason have you not done this by common agreement, but |120 have divided and separated in one Council of bishops those who were present from those who were about to come, so that through examination with them 38 the judgement touching the faith might be defined?' Nor to this returned they answer, but by anticipation without discretion and by agreeing to that which was pleasing unto them, being unwilling that they 39 should be judges with them, they made them for themselves adversaries of the faith. For thou hast not refrained from thy boldness wherewith thou hast been occupied from the beginning and on account of which thou hast drawn also the bishop of Rome into the rebellion and hast made void the oecumenical Council. In the face of all these things they were deaf and speechless. For what reason heard you not this; that 'you shall not hold a Council incomplete before all the bishops are assembled '? For what reason did you not wait for them, [when] the Count who was sent was restraining you and persuading you to wait for the bishops who were near and not far off? And you made no answer unto any one of these things. If Christ had been sitting [there] and if you had been persuaded that he was sitting with you, would you have done these things, and would you have made a participation in your impiety----Christ on whom you thus / trample, as if he, who would have exposed you so openly, could not confute you? For how [in that case] would you have supposed that your unrighteous and hidden purpose would be surely revealed, you who were the first to testify unto the bishops of your impiety and also unto the Count who had charge over you of the things which he has in truth forwarded in the report for the instruction of the Emperor?

Found the quote in Book 2, Part 1
Nestorius, The Bazaar of Heracleides (1925) pp. 131-335. Book 2 part 1.

Nestorius. Cyril then is the persecutor and the accuser, while I am the persecuted; but it was the Council which heard and judged my words and the emperor who assembled [it]. If then he 1 was on the bench of judges, what indeed shall I say of the bench of judges? He was the whole tribunal, for everything which he said they all said together, and without doubt it is certain that he in person took the place of a tribunal for them. For if all the judges had been assembled and the accusers had risen in their place and the accused also likewise, all of them would equally have had freedom of speech, instead of his being in everything both accuser and emperor and judge. He did all things with authority, after excluding from authority him 2 who had been charged by the emperor, and he exalted himself; and he assembled all those whom he wanted, both those who were far off and those who were near, and he constituted himself the tribunal. And I was summoned by Cyril who had assembled the Council, even by Cyril who was the chief thereof. Who was judge? Cyril. And who was the accuser? Cyril. Who was bishop of Rome? Cyril. Cyril was everything. Cyril was the bishop of Alexandria and took the place of the holy and saintly bishop of Rome, Celestinus.

Obviously Nestorius was inflamed by Cyril but he seems to have a sift spot for Celestinus, bishop of Rome.

Apparent Nestorius wrote three letters Celestinus. The first is missing..
Nestorius, 2nd and 3rd letters to Pope Celestine (2005)

The 2nd letter...

For we have also expended much energy here [in Constantinople] striving to root out from the church of God that most despicable impiety, the most harmful opinion of Apollinaris and Arius. For I do not know the extent to which some ecclesiastical men have become sick with the sickness of the aforementioned heretics, on account of their acceptance of the idea that the divinity and humanity of the only-begotten are blended (contemperationis imaginem ex deitate et humanitate unigeniti). These heretics both dare to make the bodily passions pour over into the divinity of the only-begotten and pretend that the divine immutability has passed over to the bodily nature. They confuse each nature through the mutability that arises through the blending, even though in reality each nature is adored through an unconfused conjunction of the highest sort (per conjunctionem summam et inconfusam) in the single person (in una persona) of the only-begotten.

The 3rd letter...

I have learned that Cyril, the most distinguished bishop of the city of Alexandria, has become worried about reports against him that we received, and is now hunting for subterfuges to avoid a holy synod taking place due to these reports. In the meantime he is devising some other disturbances over terms and has chosen [as a point of controversy] the term Theotokos and Christotokos: the first he allows, but as for Christotokos, sometimes he removes it from the gospels, and sometimes he allows it, on the basis of what I believe is a kind of excessive prudence. In the case of the term Theotokos, I am not opposed to those who want to say it, unless it should advance to the confusion of natures in the manner of the madness of Apollinaris or Arius. Nonetheless, I have no doubt that the term Theotokos is inferior to the term Christotokos, as the latter is mentioned by the angels and the gospels.
 
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DamianWarS

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I certainly am not a nestorian and see his way of looking at Christ as flawed but I also recognize it was developing doctrine, perhaps it was Nestorius' arrogance that was his own demise. Nestorius seem to be trying to defend the impassibility of the divine and could not conceive the divine was subjected to fleshly passions, he tried to work it out but just missed the mark (and was unwilling to accept it)

Being the Bishop of Constantinople he was in many ways second to the Bishop of Rome so it makes sense for him to respect the position of the Celestinus over Cyril who to Nestorius he may not consider in equal honor. After all the letters were addressed to Celestinus not Cyril yet Cyril haughty debated them.

There seems to be a recurring eastern thinking that Nestorius represents and is repeated in the infamous Robber Council. Eutyches presented a view of Christ were he was two natures before the incarnation and one nature after the incarnation. He confused many people with this logic but the council was in majority consensus mostly attended by bishops of the eastern church. (later it was declared unecumenical) Nestorious has this concept of t̶w̶o̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶s̶o̶p̶a̶[two hypostases] (thanks the for plural of prosopon) together making one prosopon. This idea of natures of Christ was still being developed and p̶r̶o̶s̶o̶p̶o̶n̶[hypostasis] seems to be an early used concept of nature however inadequate. But Nestorius failed by not adequately putting God in the incarnation but Eutyches almost seems to try and redeem it by shifting the 2 natures before the incarnation (he just confused a whole lot of people). A lot of Cyrillians adopted a monophysite doctrine and called Chalcedon Nestorian.

In the end Nestorius' view was flawed and Cyril perhaps closer to the mark but the council at Chalcedon did not conceive of the dual nature from Cyril. Theologically speaking Cyril had a more conservative view and it was good the church took that direction but my lament is more directed at the product of Nestorius' exile. He found himself in the Arab world where later Nestorianism was most dominate and likely was what Muhammad had exposure to (his wife may have been nestorian). Nestorius may have theologically missed the mark but it seems the church miss the mark with the way they treated him. No doubt Nestorius' personality played a role to his demise but had he been in communion with the church while evangelizing to the Arabs perhaps Muhammad may have had much better exposure to Christianity. Instead Muhammad got a fringe unchecked version that was labeled a heresy who probably didn't see Rome and the Eastern church as friends... not a good set up and Muhammad's attempt at contextualising it to the Arabs turned into the biggest enemy of the church, namely Islam.
 
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Karl.C

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I'm incapacitated at the moment & can't do much other than sit on my bum and play with my computer. So having something meaty to do is much appreciated...as is the info you are providing (which prompts me to find out more).

(thanks for the plural of prosopon)

You are welcome, but it was just an coincidental bit of grammatical usage, not a prompt.

While I think of it: I regularly type ousia whether the context is singular or plural. The plural is ousie.

There are two other terms you might come accross...

* "accident" = "symbebekos" (not sure of the Greek, there are alternatives). This is important in Christology as "accidents" (non-essentialities) only apply to the prosopon (eg: growth, aging, complexion etc). So if I said to you that "the Son accumulated humanity to his person" meaning prosopon, I'd be a heretic. If I said it meaning hypostasis, I'd be orthodox.

* "energia" (energies) I'm not sure about this one. I assume the energia is activated by the hypostasis and via the prosopon is observed as physis to prove ousia. (Maybe more to do with Nicea than Chalcedon).

I recall encountering "energia" in a Christological context, but forget the details. It could be a useful word if a monk from Mt Athos was testing you by asking "Was Jesus' poop divine or human?" Long answer: "Poop is not of the nature {physis) of an individual (hypostasis}, nor does it 'define the essentiality of the individual' (ousia), nor is it useful to the flesh (sarx), which is why we see the person (prosopon) strain, as they expend energies (energia) to evict it from the body (soma)".

Depending on the monks inclination, I could get a fail because of the final clause of that answer...

There is serious modern theological debate about the ousia-energia connection.
Essence–energies distinction (Eastern Orthodox theology) - Wikipedia

In truth, I have been asked the "poop" question. Usually by people trying to be funny. My typical answer: "Neither. Poop is poop!"

Thinking about it: I should open a thread asking the question...to see how people react...


_____________________​

I was chatting to my dad about your topic (he knows the period better than I) and he identified several presumptions of mine that need qualification...

Firstly, the word usage rules I gave were not universal in the 4th/5th century. The Latins & Syrians especially were confused about hypostasis & ousia. Thus the anathema of Nicea 325CE "...whosoever shall say that...[the Son] is of a different {hypostasis} or {ousia} [from the Father]...the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes.". This was revoked at Constantinople 381CE.

In between the two councils, Basil (the great) of Cappadocia had been giving lessons in Greek grammar by snail mail.
Basil ousia and hypostasis

In about 376CE Jerome defiantly wrote to the Pope in Rome saying "If you think fit enact a decree; and then I shall not hesitate to speak of three hypostases. Order a new creed to supersede the Nicene; and then, whether we are Arians or orthodox, one confession will do for us all. In the whole range of secular learning hypostasis never means anything but essence". I'm guessing Jerome didn't get the memo from Basil.

Jerome did say "I asked [the Campenses] what three hypostases are supposed to mean. They reply three persons subsisting. I rejoin that this is my belief. They are not satisfied with the meaning, they demand the term".
CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 15 (Jerome)

Then we get Syrian guys like Severus of Antioch who added to the confusion, writing about the "hypostases of the hypostasis". I'm guessing Severus didn't get the memo from Basil either.
Hypostasis in St Severus of Antioch

Discussing Severus the link provided points out...

Severus of Antioch reveals the Non-Chalcedonian communion as being wholeheartedly Cyrilline in Christology. His teachings make clear that there is no substantial difference between the Christology of the present day Eastern Orthodox and that of the Oriental Orthodox, even while the nature of his objections to Chalcedon are given some justification. An understanding of the Christology of any theologian of any period requires an appreciation of the manner in which theological terms are used, and the meaning being attached to them in a variety of contexts. Nowhere is this more important than when considering the writings of the church fathers of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox communions. In the case of the Christological controversies of the 5th and 6th centuries it is especially important that the terms and phraseology be carefully described and explained...

... In Christological controversy many of the problems of broken communion and the continued preservation of entrenched positions has been due to writers on one side of controversy assuming that they knew exactly what their opponents meant, or due to assuming that terms and phrases could only ever be used in one manner...

Off and on I come across papers outlining the deliberations of the reconciliation talks between the monphysites, miaphysites & dyophsites. The first two are classed as non-Chalcedonians & the last term is what they call the Chalcedonians. In the modern discussions, it is often recounted that the warring factions, once they agree on word definitions, discover they are in fact in agreement. Of course detractors say someone compromised somewhere.

_____________________​


Today I discovered that the Pope of Rome had already excommunicated Nestorius but as Nestorius was out of the Popes jurisdiction it required a local synod of bishops to dethrone him. Hence, Cyril's council. (In those days, bishops excommunicated whomever they were in disagreement with, so regularly, its a wonder they could get a quorum together).

I also came across a few papers that depicted Cyril as a man of dubious character. The major criticism of Nestorius I encountered was, he didn't accept criticism, period!


_____________________​

Also today, I discovered why I am have been having trouble tracking down what is extant of Nestorius' writing. Most of whats been discovered since the 17th century hasn't been published, and what has been, hasn't been published in English. Also, it seems the so called Nestorians don't recognise Nestorius as their founder, so never had a priority to preserve his writings.

But! I did come across a paper that might add value to your focus. The author says "In recent scholarship there is a tendency to portray Nestorius as one who was defamed unjustly, and that he really didn’t believe the things his opponents attributed to him. Although Nestorius insisted that he did not hold to “two Sons” (this seems to have been more an implication from his teaching created by his opponents), I still find his Christological views to be faulty. To show this more cogently, the quotes and statements in this section are gathered exclusively from the writings of Nestorius himself or from “Nestorian” Christians after him, not from his opponents."
http://francisgumerlock.com/wp-content/uploads/Nestorianism.pdf

I'm about to read it (well after I have dinner or there abouts). I'll get back to you.

What I am interested in is Nestorius' use of prosopa/on. I'm only aware of their use in the Sabellian controveraries. Aka Paul of Samosata, bishop of Antioch in Syria. Makes me wonder about the Syrian vocabulary translated to Latin or Greek... Maybe someone here could enlighten me...
 
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I agree broadly that Nestorius was unfairly condemned and not allowed to properly defend himself. He also died professing his orthodoxy, his objections largely ignored because he had been labelled a heretic.
The wording of the Bazaar of Heracleides is also far less clear cut and far closer to Chalcedon than his opponents presented it, but it is difficult to rehabilitate a man once condemned as unsound.
To consider him a Church Father is a bit far fetched, but his views did help the Church articulate the Chalcedonian position. He should not be considered a Heresiarch in my opinion, just a sincere if prideful early Christian who should be looked on sympathetically.
 
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I've had another look at Nestorius' position, trying to understand it through different material and it seems I have misunderstood it. I incorrectly represented it saying that Nestorius used the prosopon as an early undeveloped word for Nature, saying two prosopa (divine/flesh) made one visible prosopon; this is wrong. Nestorius does not say two prosopa but two hypostases made one visible, inseparable prosopon in appearance, namely Christ. (I corrected the previous posts striking out prosopon (p̶r̶o̶s̶o̶p̶o̶n̶) and adding hypostasis in brace brackets [hypostasis] where I have used it incorrectly)

Nestorius didn't like the term Theotokos because he felt it hinted Arianism or Apollinarism because for him it implied that the Son was a creation and this is what caused him to think that Christotokos was theologically more correct. At the onset Nestorius was trying to preserve both the divine and the manhood of Christ and, not trying to separate Christ but instead showing how divine/flesh existed at the same time.

The two natures (hypostases) are conjoined in one; divine and flesh each complete and intact, though united. He preferred the word "conjoined" over union because he didn't want any suggestion of mixed natures but rather 2 distinct natures. This conjunction resulted in a single prosopon which is Christ an external and indivisible appearance. I think for this context Nestorius uses prosopon correctly as it strictly is an appearance from the 2 natures working in the background.

Since each nature is distinct while still having this mixed prosopon it meant the natures were left fully intact; the infallibility of the divine and the fallibility of the flesh producing one prosopon. So Christ though eternal still died. The divine suffer only in the sense that flesh could suffer and you can't say God was born of the virgin as only the flesh, not the divine, was born. The union as it were was from the "gracious condescension of the Godhead and the love and obedience of the man". That last part is a little off as it assumes the manhood existed without the Godhead, even if but for a moment, to allow the voluntary obedience. The logic may not work but Nestorius continually insisted that the divine and flesh are not numerically two but rather there are two natures (hypostases).

By devaluing the term Theotokos he started the conversion with offence and the rest by inheritance continued in offence; people just heard noise and didn't give Nestorius a chance. After all two natures of Christ is the eventual resolution of Chalcedon and Nestorius seems to be one of the first to start this conversation so even though considered heresy it seem he did influence wider thought.

Cyril on the other hand did not see the incarnation as a union as scripture says "He became flesh" not "He united with flesh". Cyril emphasize that the Word who existed before the incarnation was the same person after the incarnation just "embodied, enfleshed" The incarnate was simply the eternal Word in new state. This justly protects the divinity of Christ while in the womb. Cyril maintained in one hypostasis, and a single physis (thus monophysite) The divine and flesh were in inseparable union but does not eliminate difference however differences can only be determined through intellectual analysis. G. L. Prestige comments "The deity has its personality and the manhood its personality, but the two personalities are identically one and the same... The reason why the two are identical is because the human personality is simply that of the divine subject under submission to physical condition" Thus Jesus is God himself living, suffering dying and rising according to the flesh.

Cyril rejected two natures because he thought it involved separation. To Cyril nature was hypostasis which was a concrete objective existence so Christ could not have two hypostases. He preferred two natural properties or qualities over nature. Cyril actually was influenced by an Apollinarian formula, one incarnate nature of the divine Word, thinking it came from Athanasius which he was a devote follower. Later in his life he warmed up to the idea of two natures once he realised it did not always involve a separation.

There are logical issues with both and Cyril take a less controversial approach and perhaps was look at as Orthodox from by keeping Theotokos. A dominant issue here seems to be the definition of "hypostasis". There seem to be confusions in East and West about the use of the words hypostasis and Ousia. G. L. Prestige comments "Both hypostasis and ousia describe positive, substantial existence, that which is, that which subsists…. But ousia tends to regard internal characteristics and relations, or metaphysical reality; while hypostasis regularly emphasizes the externally concrete character of the substance, or empirical reality." This was some of Nicea arguments and Eastern thought was 3 hypostases is 3 gods however the West thought of it as 3 substances. Substantia is the Latin equivalent to hypostasis which we see in the 325 creed "...Son of God is of a different hypostasis or substance..." in greek this is "ὑποστάσεως ἢ οὐσιάς" (hypostasis or ousia) and in Latin this is "substantia aut essentia" (substance or essence).

Nicea did not do well at contrasting these words and it led to East/West battles and eventually to Council of Constantinople 381 where we see the Creed that we usually refer to as the Nicene Creed. The latter creed only uses ousia and it doesn't use hypostasis and leaves the issue uncommented. This is perhaps a reason why during Nestorius/Cyril the word is still confused. When we fast forward to Chalcedon the word used is physis for nature. It seems both got it wrong as Cyril rejected 2 physes and Nestorius preferred 2 hypostases. The majors for Nestorians seems to be rejecting Theotokos and openly professing Jesus as 2 hypostases. For Cyrillians it was the openingly accepting Theotokos and only conceding to 1 hypostasis. In the end it all seems an issue of semantics.
 
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Karl.C

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I've had another look at Nestorius' position, trying to understand it through different material and it seems I have misunderstood it. I incorrectly represented it saying that Nestorius used the prosopon as an early undeveloped word for Nature, saying two prosopa (divine/flesh) made one visible prosopon; this is wrong.
I didn't notice, but not because I am unobservant. Reading the ancients it gets confusing. Prosopon seems to get confused with physis, but I figure thats logical because we primarily see the person (prosopon) doing the activity (energia) by which we perceive the nature (physis). So it would be logical to conclude two prosopa = the masks worn by the actor (the hypostasis).

Nestorius does not say two prosopa but two hypostases made one visible, inseparable prosopon in appearance, namely Christ...
From what I've read, what got Cyril et al inflamed wasn't the two hypostases, which Nestorius (like many Niceans) equated with ousia but Nestorius relegating Christ to the prosopon, making his humanity illusionary. I will cover this in my post about what I learned today...

Nestorius didn't like the term Theotokos
Nor do I, if it is taken to mean "mother of God" instead of "God bearer". From what I've read Nestorius wasn't overly fussed about the word, but his assisstant was heated about it and Nestorius backed him. Which apparently is what lit ihe fuse...

...because he felt it hinted Arianism or Apollinarism because for him it implied that the Son was a creation and this is what caused him to think that Christotokos was theologically more correct.
Imo, Arius would have been against the term because he held that the Father begot the Son as perfect God, "perfect creature of God, but not as one of the creaturs" made by the Son (aka John 1:3. "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.") See Arius' letter to his bishop, Alexander.
Arian Letters

At the onset Nestorius was trying to preserve both the divine and the manhood of Christ and, not trying to separate Christ but instead showing how divine/flesh existed at the same time.

[In Nestorius' vocabulary] The two natures (hypostases) are conjoined in one; divine and flesh each complete and intact, though united. He preferred the word "conjoined" over union because he didn't want any suggestion of mixed natures but rather 2 distinct natures. This conjunction resulted in a single prosopon which is Christ an external and indivisible appearance. I think for this context Nestorius uses prosopon correctly as it strictly is an appearance from the 2 natures working in the background.
It almost seems all we need is to move his vocabulary one step to the left & he would be orthodox. But from what I've been reading it isn't that simple. I'll attempt to cover the issue in a later post. For now I'll make one remark: the given vocabulary equates to that of the Latins, but the Pope excommunicated him because of his meaning.

Since each nature is distinct while still having this mixed prosopon it meant the natures were left fully intact; the infallibility of the divine and the fallibility of the flesh producing one prosopon. So Christ though eternal still died.
It is necessary for the Son to have died in full possession of his divinity & humanity. Imu, Nestorius thought this impossible.

The divine suffer only in the sense that flesh could suffer and you can't say God was born of the virgin as only the flesh, not the divine, was born.
In the RCC we recite the Nicene Creed before communion. In part is says of the Son "...born of the Father before all ages...incarnate of the Virgin Mary..."
http://www.diocesefwsb.org/Data/Res...57449fe00375d64206-Article-8-Creed-Part-I.pdf

This is the precise meaning of the Creed as written in Greek. This is the meaning Nestorius would have understood as the Nicene faith, and what he thought he was defending.

The union as it were was from the "gracious condescension of the Godhead and the love and obedience of the man". That last part is a little off as it assumes the manhood existed without the Godhead, even if but for a moment, to allow the voluntary obedience. The logic may not work but Nestorius continually insisted that the divine and flesh are not numerically two but rather there are two natures (hypostases [in Nestorius' vocabulary]).

By devaluing the term Theotokos he started the conversion with offence and the rest by inheritance continued in offence; people just heard noise and didn't give Nestorius a chance. After all two natures of Christ is the eventual resolution of Chalcedon and Nestorius seems to be one of the first to start this conversation so even though considered heresy it seem he did influence wider thought.
Apparent Nestorius in effect made the divinity & humanity so distinct they were truely separate individuals, co-joined in a relationship of convenience. That at least is the accusation.

In about a day or two or three I'll be better equipped to comment further. Tomorrow I'll start to read up on Nestorius' teacher Theodore of Mopsuestia who is accused as being the real inventor of Nestorianism...
 
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Karl.C

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While searching for a direct source of a teaching attributed to Nestorius (see below) I came across a noteworthy cite...

In his Bampton Lectures (1940), Canon Prestige describes Nestorius as ‘a heresiarch who in the most explicit terms repudiated the heresy of which he was accused’..."
https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/vox/vol01/nestorius_rowdon.pdf

The modern rehabilitation of Nestorius reminds me of Augustine: the EOC recognise Augustine as "a doctor (teacher) of the Church, but one often in error", so largely ignore him. The RCC venerate Augustine then ignore him, preferring the science of scolastics like Aquinas (Augustine before his conversion had spent 7 years dedicated to the Manichaen heresy, and his writings are accused of being infected by Manichaeism and influenced with the Platonism of Plotinus). I'd be inclined to give Nestorius the same status Augustine currently has...

From a cursory read of what I have found of Nestorius' writings, I could half agree with Canon Prestige's appraisal. Nestorius in his writings, in part, does seem to sound like a Chalcedonian! However, I do see problems. Though I question whether I'm reading into what is available to me of Nestorius' writings, modern perceptions foreign to the thinking of his time (though I am fairly confident I am not).

For instance, whereas Nestorius seems to have thought of ousia, nature & hypostasis as "physical", as far back as Aristotle they were considered "metaphysical" (conceptual = having real existence in perception). For instance (from memory): Aristotle argued that being bi-pedal is not an attribute/property of the ousia "man" (rational animal). He also advocated that physically, a "woman" is a defective "man" because she cannot produce sperm, but metaphysically a "man" without defect.

There is a story about Aristotle refuting a philosopher who advocated "you cannot cross the same stream twice". Aristotle replied that whilst such is true at an atomic level (unobservable therefore unknowable) it misdirects the observer away from "this" to "that" (ie: what is the definition (ousia) of "this" (hypostasis) that inspires the observersation of the sameness to or difference of "that" (another hypostasis?). This type of logic was rampant during the mid 4th century. For instance: the extreme Arian, Eunomius, argued that the "Son cannot know the Father" meaning, like us the Son only knows what has been revealed to him. Atomically that is probably true, but not perceptably (consider John 14:7,9).

Because of the decree of Chalcedon, the answer to the question "Did God die on the cross?" must be a qualified "Yes!". The single hypostasis (the Son) owning both manhood & Godhood (Col 2:9) died in his entirety on the cross, taking his personal attributes/properities, manhood & Godhood, into hades. The qualification: the function (the God ousia) is not exclusive to the Son, and when the Father raised him from the dead the "God physis" and "man physis" were independently observed to have been restored (Jesus in his completeness was raised from the dead. cp. Acts 10:39-41).

Dependent on which branch of denominationalism you are from you might be screaming "HERETIC!" about now. But that is the solid food of Orthodoxy used to refute groups like the Docetae, who the apostles wrote against & whose teachings continue to permeate the Church (the Docetae denied the reality of the Son's incarnation and/or death).

The above gives a bit of a background to why I see Nestorius' use of "prosopon" as a curiousity. Imo, his choice of words puts him between a rock and a hard place, leaving him open to accusations of anything from neo-Docetism to neo-Sabellianism.

One last thought before I address Nestorius directly. He seems to be a Platonist, which from what I gather would suit his disposition = why go to the student (Aristotle) when you can attend the master (Plato). But given his education he should have been inclinded towards Aristotle. Maybe he found a middle path (?)

________________________​

THE CHRISTOLOGY OF NESTORIUS - Extract (1) from his writings


1. The union is not to be conceived of as a change of ousia — either into another ousia or unto a physical compounding into a single nature...For a physical union implies the passible and changeable

2. The union was not one of natures into a single nature, nor a confusion, nor a change, nor a changing of ousia — whether of
God into man, or of man into God — nor a mingling of natures, nor a compounding into one nature, so that they should be mingled....

3. Now all these things they [Nestorius' opponents] make void by a union of nature and of hypostasis....These persons do not blush to attribute these things to the Divine nature by means of a union of physical hypostasis - God suffering the passions of the body which is physically united, thirsting and hungering and being needy and anxious...All these men will make void the proper things of God the Word also, and make them human

From an Orthodox viepoint, Nestorius is denying that the Son in his theotes (state of being God), in the totality of his person (hypostasis) suffered & died. That the Son's death & resurrection were mere window dressing = merely perceived of the outward form (prosopon) not the person (hypostasis).

Excluding the theotes, I've heard Muslims speak of Jesus in similar terms. Maybe it is a middle eastern thing dating back to the Docetae (?) Nestorius' "two hypostases" theory does resolve the "Did God die on the cross" question, but only if A.John & A.Paul are flushed down the toilet.

So far I don't have access to a full extract, so my appraisal is based solely on the above fragment, which may not fully represent Nestorius' teaching.

THE CHRISTOLOGY OF NESTORIUS - page 10


For Nestorius and his followers, the title “Jesus” always refers to His manhood. The titles “God” and “Word” refer to only to His Godhood. They said, for example, that the Gospels did not say “Now the birth of God was thus” (Matt. 1:18), “God grew in stature and in wisdom and in grace” (Luke 2:40), “God was led by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness” (Matt. 4:1), “God cried out in a loud voice” upon the cross (Matt. 27:50). Rather, the gospel writers used the name of the person of the manhood, “Jesus.”

As should be obvious, this idea could be construed as denial of the incarnation. Jesus as Immanuel is "God with us" (Isa 7:4; Mt 1:21-25; Lk 1:31; 2:21). Mt 1:21 is particularly important for obvious reasons.

As I noted earlier, I don't have access to a full extract, so my appraisal is based solely on the fragment provided, which may not fully represent Nestorius' teaching.

________________________​

THE CHRISTOLOGY OF NESTORIUS - page 12


As Nestorius thought that one hypostasis posed danger to the divine nature of Christ and the Trinity by making God passible, the orthodox thought that the Nestorian assertion of two hypostases or two prosopa was dangerous to the Trinity. If there are three hypostases in the Godhead — Father, Son, and Holy Spirit = then having two hypostases in Christ introduces a quaternity in the Trinity.

My dad tells me that about 50+ years ago, when he was in primary school he was taught that when Jesus ate, slept etc people saw his humanity (person no1), when he forgave sins & the sick/lamed were healed they saw his divinity (person no2). So all the kids of his generation had this image of Jesus as a "shape shifter" (plenty of illustrations in comics & movies that they could relate to). Then in his first year at high school they were told "Forget all that rubbish the nuns & others taught you! When people saw Jesus eat, sleep etc and heal the sick, they saw Jesus! Full stop!" John 14:11-12 then cited to make the point...

Argueing two prosopa is as bad as arguing two hypostases when it comes to Christology. The two natures (physes) are only recognisable through perception of the observation. Compare John 14:5-7 with 20:28.

From where I'm currently sitting, Nestorius' teaching threatens the teaching of the tri-unity of the Godhead and the incarnation. But as I said, I haven't got access to his full teaching, just fragments.

________________________​

What a disappointment the paper by FRANCIS X. GUMERLOCK turned out to be.

I am still no wiser about what Nestorius taught in its completeness, and thus wonder how we encounter claims of the rehabilitation of Nestorius himself (not necessarily the Nestorians). So far I haven't found evidence that he was misunderstood (his intention maybe, but not his writings).

I read somewhere that to understand Nestorius you had to read his teacher Theodore of Antioch. Wikipedia notes "Nestorius, on his way from Antioch to Constantinople (AD 428), took counsel with Theodore and received from him the seeds of heresy which he shortly afterwards scattered with such disastrous results. Evagrius makes this statement on the authority of one Theodulus, a person otherwise unknown. We may safely reject it, so far as it derives the Christology of Nestorius from this single interview...

[However,] Shortly after Theodore's death men in other quarters began to hold him up to obloquy. As early perhaps as 431 Marius Mercator denounced him as the real author of the Pelagian heresy (Lib. subnot. in verba Juliani, praef); and not long afterwards prefaced his translation of Theodore's ecthesis with a still more violent attack on him as the precursor of Nestorianism.

The council of Ephesus, however, while it condemned Nestorius by name, did not mention Theodore... Cyril, who had once spoken favourably of some of Theodore's works (Facund. viii.6)... he wrote to the synod of Antioch (Ep. 67) that the opinions of Diodore, Theodore, and others of the same schools had "borne down with full sail upon the glory of Christ"; to the emperor (Ep. 71), that Diodore and Theodore were the parents of the blasphemy of Nestorius; to Proclus (Ep. 72), that had Theodore been still alive and openly approved of the teaching of Nestorius, he ought undoubtedly to have been anathematized...

The fifth general council (553), under the influence of the emperor Justinian I, pronounced the anathema which neither Theodosius II nor Cyril thought to issue...".
Theodore of Mopsuestia - Wikipedia


________________________​

I've come across a lengthy article entitled "THEODORE OF MOPSUESTIA REVISITED". Might post something more on Nestorius after I have a read...
http://cdn.theologicalstudies.net/61/61.3/61.3.3.pdf
 
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@tstor this is what I was talking about in the other thread. How Nestorius seems to be somewhat Platonic as opposed to our later Aristotlean or Nominalist conceptions of divine attributes, personages and natures. Perhaps this thread will help you understand what I mean and my objections to Nestorianism?
 
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DamianWarS

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The modern rehabilitation of Nestorius reminds me of Augustine: the EOC recognise Augustine as "a doctor (teacher) of the Church, but one often in error", so largely ignore him. The RCC venerate Augustine then ignore him, preferring the science of scolastics like Aquinas (Augustine before his conversion had spent 7 years dedicated to the Manichaen heresy, and his writings are accused of being infected by Manichaeism and influenced with the Platonism of Plotinus). I'd be inclined to give Nestorius the same status Augustine currently has...

I agree, perhaps Nestorius can be regarded as an early advocate to a diaphysite christology... albeit in error. Cyril can be looked at in the same way yet perhaps Nestorius cross the line too far.

One last thought before I address Nestorius directly. He seems to be a Platonist, which from what I gather would suit his disposition = why go to the student (Aristotle) when you can attend the master (Plato). But given his education he should have been inclinded towards Aristotle. Maybe he found a middle path (?)

Generally all philosophers are said to be Aristotelian or Platonist. In a similar way theologians are in Christology Antiochene or Alexandrian. Nestorius was Antiochene, Cyril obviously Alexandrian. Antiochenes explain Jesus by looking at the gospels and reading who the man Jesus was then attempt to explain how he is also God. Alexandrian begin with the Word of John 1 then attempt to understand what it means for the Word to take on flesh. Given those two perspectives it helps to better understand both Nestorius and Cyril's perspectives

The council of Ephesus, however, while it condemned Nestorius by name, did not mention Theodore... Cyril, who had once spoken favourably of some of Theodore's works (Facund. viii.6)... he wrote to the synod of Antioch (Ep. 67) that the opinions of Diodore, Theodore, and others of the same schools had "borne down with full sail upon the glory of Christ"; to the emperor (Ep. 71), that Diodore and Theodore were the parents of the blasphemy of Nestorius; to Proclus (Ep. 72), that had Theodore been still alive and openly approved of the teaching of Nestorius, he ought undoubtedly to have been anathematized...

Proclus of Constantinople commented on this. The Armenian church was going through an intellectual renaissance and started to translate classic Greek and Syriac Fathers writings and included in this was the words of Theodore. The Armenian reached out to the Proclus and Proclus made a distinction between nature (physis) and hypostasis saying "There is only one Son, for the natures are not divided into two hypostases, rather the awesome economy of salvation has united the two natures into one hypostasis." This is a key and important distinction between Nestorius and Chalcedon (even though it was pre-chalcedon) as Hypostasis and natures are finally contrasted. Proclus takes the ambiguity away and settles the matter, being the patriarch of Constantinople he was in the right place to do so.

Proclus also tried to circulate this letter to the Armenians to the Orient as well to condemn Theodore but there was an outrage and the Bishops of the Orient would not condemn a man who died in full communion with the church. Cyril himself wrote to Proclus to withdraw this request.

Nestorius' position was continued work from Theodore, who died in full communion. It would seem Nestorius was set up for failure from the start and it was a lose lose battle. Nestorius was labeled a heretic and Theodore goes down as a great theologian of his time.

From an Orthodox viepoint, Nestorius is denying that the Son in his theotes (state of being God), in the totality of his person (hypostasis) suffered & died. That the Son's death & resurrection were mere window dressing = merely perceived of the outward form (prosopon) not the person (hypostasis).

Excluding the theotes, I've heard Muslims speak of Jesus in similar terms. Maybe it is a middle eastern thing dating back to the Docetae (?) Nestorius' "two hypostases" theory does resolve the "Did God die on the cross" question, but only if A.John & A.Paul are flushed down the toilet.

This is very interesting. As I have already brought up I am less interested in Nestorius directly but more lament over how the church handled him which resulted in the gospel according the nestorius being spread in the Arab world. This may have had impact on how Muhammad eventually was exposed to Christianity. Reading the Quran there is a lot of overlap with biblical accounts and it is clear Muhammad had contact with Christians (his own wife was probably a nestorian) Given this abstract nature of the nature of Christ, which works great with Greek and Latin, Arabic would have been far more concrete and perhaps some of these intellectual abstracts were lost in translation and culture. If Muhammad's exposure to Christianity showed the divine could not die on the cross perhaps Muhammad's perspective on this was even more slanted to his understanding and the worst products emerged where Jesus is just a prophet and Jesus did not die on the cross.
 
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Karl.C

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Generally all philosophers are said to be Aristotelian or Platonist.
Or Pythagorean or Stoic. A.Paul's writings are said to evidence he had an inclination towards Stoicism (?) I don't know enough about them to comment - next project (maybe).

A little bit of trivia: back in the day Pythagoras was in dispute with his pupil Aristoxenus about tuning the Lyre. The student lost! Christianity arose & Church music comes on the scene. The Church determined Pyhagoas' tuning method represented the Trinity. Flah forward to the invention of the Piano. & to get rid of the "wolf notes", Aristoxenus equal temperment tuning method is adopted. The purests (and the Church) decries it "the devils music", because it is out of tune (can't play a perfect 'A' in ETTM).... Reminds me of Nestorius' account of his trial.

In a similar way theologians are in Christology Antiochene or Alexandrian.
Consider...

What is certain is that in the Greek writings that happen to have come downto us, those by authors from Alexandria (Ammonius, Philoponus, Olympiodorus and so on) tend to be commentaries on Aristotle’s treatises on logic and natural philosophy, while those from the Athenian school (Syrianus, Proclus, Damascius, andso on) tend to be metaphysical treatises and/or commentaries on the works of Plato
http://www.nsu.ru/classics/schole/5/5-2-chase.pdf

Nestorius was Antiochene, Cyril obviously Alexandrian. Antiochenes explain Jesus by looking at the gospels and reading who the man Jesus was then attempt to explain how he is also God. Alexandrian begin with the Word of John 1 then attempt to understand what it means for the Word to take on flesh. Given those two perspectives it helps to better understand both Nestorius and Cyril's perspectives.
I don't buy into that common view. It is far more complex (see above).

The east tended to generate heretics (eg: Arius), the west fanatics/purists (eg: Novatian, Athanasius). At Nicea 325CE the bishops gave Arius short shift (there were several pre-Nicea councils that had already condemned him). They spent more time dealing with the Novatian schism that had continued to drag on since the end of Diocletian's purge.

Nestorius & Cyril's conflict reminds me of the conflict between Athanasius & Arius. In the later case you have this very old guy, well respected for his piety (Arius) having a barney with his bishop Alexander, who could have been advocating what sounded like Sabellianism. Alexander had been criticised for his inaction in dealing with Arius, he'd hope Arius would calm down & peace would reign, but this youthful firebrand (Athanasius) enters the melee and the fight is on!

The Armenian reached out to the Proclus and Proclus made a distinction between nature (physis) and hypostasis saying "There is only one Son, for the natures are not divided into two hypostases, rather the awesome economy of salvation has united the two natures into one hypostasis."
I've got two papers to read before I can comment.

Given Proclus was anti-Nestorius the extract sounds Kosher, but the argument could be made "thus the two natures are conjoined as the one "nature" of the Son".

Chalcedon rejects the latter proposition (ie: the natures must remain separate & distinct properties (possessions) of the one "person" (either as hypostasis or prosopon).

This is a key and important distinction between Nestorius and Chalcedon (even though it was pre-chalcedon) as Hypostasis and natures are finally contrasted. Proclus takes the ambiguity away and settles the matter, being the patriarch of Constantinople he was in the right place to do so.
Something doesn't ring true... Lets see we we work through the philosophies...

Imu, Plato would assign "nature" as a "form" which has self existence, external to the "person" and the "group", but the "nature" is imprinted upon them.

Imu. Aristotle would say that a "nature" is only determined from observation of the species (the primary subsistence=the person). Whilst the "nature" is conceptually external to the "person", it is not self existent, and becomes the possession of the "person" by inheritance.

Imu,, Aristotle would continue that the "forms" are only conceptual (the secondary subsistence=the genus) and are simply the grouping of "things" who display alike "natures".

Imu, Aristotle would also argue that "mankind" alternately displays one of two distinct natures: "animal" & "rational".

Whilst the terms may not have been settled, the concepts were ancient & well established!

Nestorius' position was continued work from Theodore, who died in full communion. It would seem Nestorius was set up for failure from the start and it was a lose lose battle. Nestorius was labeled a heretic and Theodore goes down as a great theologian of his time.
Not quite. In the 6th century Theodore was posthumously declared a heretic & the emperor ordered his works be burnt.

This is very interesting. As I have already brought up I am less interested in Nestorius directly but more lament over how the church handled him which resulted in the gospel according the nestorius being spread in the Arab world.
And China, India & throughot the far east.

This may have had impact on how Muhammad eventually was exposed to Christianity. Reading the Quran there is a lot of overlap with biblical accounts and it is clear Muhammad had contact with Christians (his own wife was probably a nestorian) Given this abstract nature of the nature of Christ, which works great with Greek and Latin, Arabic would have been far more concrete and perhaps some of these intellectual abstracts were lost in translation and culture. If Muhammad's exposure to Christianity showed the divine could not die on the cross perhaps Muhammad's perspective on this was even more slanted to his understanding and the worst products emerged where Jesus is just a prophet and Jesus did not die on the cross.
I've read Muhammad was illiterate. If so, he had to learn by listening at the camp fires as his caravan went to & fro. He would have come into contact with every heresy known to Christianity & Judaism as well as orthodox opinions.

As for his household, he had a concubine that was Coptic. She was given to him as a gift from her Egyptian Coptic father.
 
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hedrick

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The situation is complicated by a couple of things:

* politics, which led to hostile interpretations of others' position, and at times misrepresentation
* differences in language. The last few postings have been it clear that Nestorius used "hypostasis" differently from later theology.

I believe there are disadvantages to all Christologies. However some are more serious than others. But sympathetic treatments of Nestorius using recently discovered documents make it look like he was orthodox.
 
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Karl.C

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The situation is complicated by a couple of things:

* politics, which led to hostile interpretations of others' position, and at times misrepresentation
* differences in language. The last few postings have been it clear that Nestorius used "hypostasis" differently from later theology.

I believe there are disadvantages to all Christologies. However some are more serious than others. But sympathetic treatments of Nestorius using recently discovered documents make it look like he was orthodox.
I agree except for your second point.

Basil had decades earlier had established the distinct meaning of "hypostasis", and we know from Jerome that Basil's definition was in wide usage by the last quarter of the 4th century in the Greek speaking territories. So Basil, as the bishop of Constantinople, had no excuse on that score. The question I have nagging at me: did Nestorius write to Cyril in Greek or Syrian? If the latter, then...

I think the major fuss was Nestorius' reputed rejection of the term "theotokos". If it is taken to mean "mother of God" or even "Nurturer of God" I see it as a problemic term. As mentioned earlier, in my readings, Nestorius when preaching against the term was defending his assistant who was publicly antagonistic to the term. Somewhere, somehow things must have got out of hand in his dealings with Cyril...

Anyway, I haven't finished my readings on Nestorius et al, so haven't got anything constructive to add to our conversation...

I need a break from the subject to re-neutralise my mindset. So whilst I will return to the subject in the near future, for now...
 
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