christina Pickle
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I don't claim to have all the answers, but have you considered the book of Revelations? Ask yourself or find out who wrote it. What does it say? Revelations describes what John saw... hmmm
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The "coming of the son of man" already took place?
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Deadworm
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"The OP raises a serious apologetic issue for our faith because, in his book "Why I am not a Christian," famed British philosopher Betrand Russell cites Matthew 10:23 as a key reason why he rejects Christianity: "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."
There are 3 related problematic issues here:
(1) Why is it urgent that the disciples flee from town to town in the face of persecution, unless Jesus' 2nd Coming will take place prior to their mission's completion?
(2) Matthew 16:27-28 seems to be a clear reference to the Son of Man's 2nd Coming within the lifetime of His disciples: "For the Son of Man is to come with His angels in the glory of His Father, and then He will repay everyone for what he has done. Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom (Matthew 16:27-28)." So must not the coming of the Son of Man in 10:23 be understood in the same way?
(3) Mark 13:26-27, 30 seems to predict the 2nd Coming of the Son of Man during the earthly Jesus' generation: "Then they will see the Son of Man coming on clouds with power and great glory. Then He will gather His elect from the four winds from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven...Truly I say to you, this generation shall not pass away until all these things have taken place." Many evangelicals seek to evade this claim by interpreting "this generation" as the distant generation in which all the signs foretold in Mark 13 are fulfilled. But is this the natural and honest interpretation of "this generation" when Matthew 10:23 and 16:27-28 are taken into account?
(1) The best answer to these 3 questions emerges once the scholarly consensus about the use of Mark and Q (a sayings of Jesus source by both Matthew and Luke) is considered.
The offense of Matthew 10:23 vanishes once it is recognized that Luke 10:1-16 and Matthew 9:38-28, 10:7-16, 23 represent each Gospel's editing of Jesus' mission instructions preserved in Q; and so, Luke 10:1 preserves the original intent of Matthew 10:23:
"When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."
"After this, the Lord sent 70 others on ahead of Him into every town and place where He Himself was about to come (Luke 10:1)."
In Luke's version of Q Jesus is clearly referring to His "coming" on a ministry mission, for which His disciples are to alert the towns and make plans for Jesus' arrival. On this understanding, the disciples must flee persecution because Jesus would be wasting His time trying to minister to a hostile audience and preparations needed to be made in more receptive places.
(2) In his editorial rewording of Mark 9:1 Matthew has revised the phrase "the kingdom of God has come with power" to read "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom:"
"Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom (Matthew 16:28)."
"And He said to them: Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not take death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power (Mark 9:1).
The original phrase in Mark need not refer to Christ's 2nd Coming. In fact, many scholars contend that the kingdom came in power proleptically in the Transfiguration.
Mark's next verse reads: "Six days later, Jesus took with Him Peter, James, and John up a high mountain apart, by themselves. And He was transfigured before them (9:2)."
40 times Mark connects his stories vaguely with the term "immediately." So why does he take the unprecedented step of specifying the exact duration between 9:1 and the Transfiguration? Because, scholars argue, Mark believes that the kingdom of God came in power 6 days later at the Transfiguration. On this reckoning, the Transfiguration might be a foreshadowing of the kingdom coming in power through Jesus' resurrection and perhaps the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2). So whatever Matthew means by his rewording, there is no error in Jesus' original saying.
(3) What, then, should we make of Jesus' use of "this generation" in Mark 13:30? Two points are key: (1) In Mark, the disciples have only asked about the timetable for the destruction of the Temple (13:4). But the whole chapter splices together sayings about this destruction with saying about Jesus' 2nd coming. So 13:30 may originally have merely referred to the Temple's destruction in His disciples' lifetime. Besides, it at least remains possible that "this generation" really does refer to the generation in the distant future when Jesus will eventually return.
There are 3 related problematic issues here:
(1) Why is it urgent that the disciples flee from town to town in the face of persecution, unless Jesus' 2nd Coming will take place prior to their mission's completion?
(2) Matthew 16:27-28 seems to be a clear reference to the Son of Man's 2nd Coming within the lifetime of His disciples: "For the Son of Man is to come with His angels in the glory of His Father, and then He will repay everyone for what he has done. Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom (Matthew 16:27-28)." So must not the coming of the Son of Man in 10:23 be understood in the same way?
(3) Mark 13:26-27, 30 seems to predict the 2nd Coming of the Son of Man during the earthly Jesus' generation: "Then they will see the Son of Man coming on clouds with power and great glory. Then He will gather His elect from the four winds from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven...Truly I say to you, this generation shall not pass away until all these things have taken place." Many evangelicals seek to evade this claim by interpreting "this generation" as the distant generation in which all the signs foretold in Mark 13 are fulfilled. But is this the natural and honest interpretation of "this generation" when Matthew 10:23 and 16:27-28 are taken into account?
(1) The best answer to these 3 questions emerges once the scholarly consensus about the use of Mark and Q (a sayings of Jesus source by both Matthew and Luke) is considered.
The offense of Matthew 10:23 vanishes once it is recognized that Luke 10:1-16 and Matthew 9:38-28, 10:7-16, 23 represent each Gospel's editing of Jesus' mission instructions preserved in Q; and so, Luke 10:1 preserves the original intent of Matthew 10:23:
"When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."
"After this, the Lord sent 70 others on ahead of Him into every town and place where He Himself was about to come (Luke 10:1)."
In Luke's version of Q Jesus is clearly referring to His "coming" on a ministry mission, for which His disciples are to alert the towns and make plans for Jesus' arrival. On this understanding, the disciples must flee persecution because Jesus would be wasting His time trying to minister to a hostile audience and preparations needed to be made in more receptive places.
(2) In his editorial rewording of Mark 9:1 Matthew has revised the phrase "the kingdom of God has come with power" to read "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom:"
"Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom (Matthew 16:28)."
"And He said to them: Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not take death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power (Mark 9:1).
The original phrase in Mark need not refer to Christ's 2nd Coming. In fact, many scholars contend that the kingdom came in power proleptically in the Transfiguration.
Mark's next verse reads: "Six days later, Jesus took with Him Peter, James, and John up a high mountain apart, by themselves. And He was transfigured before them (9:2)."
40 times Mark connects his stories vaguely with the term "immediately." So why does he take the unprecedented step of specifying the exact duration between 9:1 and the Transfiguration? Because, scholars argue, Mark believes that the kingdom of God came in power 6 days later at the Transfiguration. On this reckoning, the Transfiguration might be a foreshadowing of the kingdom coming in power through Jesus' resurrection and perhaps the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2). So whatever Matthew means by his rewording, there is no error in Jesus' original saying.
(3) What, then, should we make of Jesus' use of "this generation" in Mark 13:30? Two points are key: (1) In Mark, the disciples have only asked about the timetable for the destruction of the Temple (13:4). But the whole chapter splices together sayings about this destruction with saying about Jesus' 2nd coming. So 13:30 may originally have merely referred to the Temple's destruction in His disciples' lifetime. Besides, it at least remains possible that "this generation" really does refer to the generation in the distant future when Jesus will eventually return.
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Some believe, and this seems to be the most likely interpretation, that God came and judged the land after the gospel was preached throughout Israel. This was what is recorded in history as the Roman Invasion of Jerusalem and the succeeding Roman-Jewish wars.
Notice how in context it talks about how it would be terrible for that town/households after they rejected Christ. It talks of judgement in this life from God, soon after they rejected Christ.
Notice how in context it talks about how it would be terrible for that town/households after they rejected Christ. It talks of judgement in this life from God, soon after they rejected Christ.
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Daniel Marsh
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Since verse 18 refers to "and the Gentiles" Places the fulfillment after Acts 10, thus Second Coming at end of time makes sense.
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Daniel Marsh
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They fled to live to preach another day. If they were killed because they failed to flee, their ministry would be terminated.
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PeaceJoyLove
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(In bold for emphasis)
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
...The kingdom of God does not come with observation (with the human eye) for it is within us.
Matthew 16:
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
The promise of entering the Kingdom of God is something we are called to in this life, but first we have to lose our soul to find it. In verse 25, the Greek word "psyche" has been translated as "life" and is the same word translated as "soul" in verse 26.
Matthew 6:
22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
We can only perceive from where we are at in the process/journey of finding what Jesus is speaking about in this scripture. It is not something we can do of self, but by revelation from God. Only the spirit can give the increase...our mind tends to fill in the blanks with all kinds of imaginations and not God's Truth.
God had a purpose and plan since before the foundations of the world. "Behold the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world." Adam and Eve's perception (eyes) were changed in the garden. Adam and Eve were "naked and not ashamed" until they broke the first commandment, "Thou shalt not eat..." Jesus came to reconcile us back to all of that...Adam had dominion when he yet walked alone in the garden before God opened a door in his side and took out woman to be his helper. Christ is The Way back to being reconciled to The Father...to become ONE in Christ and enter into the kingdom.
Our thoughts (like Eve in the garden) lead us away from Christ...God draws us to the son (John 6:44)
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Exactly. Jesus said that Peter was the rock that He would build His church upon. The apostles were breathed upon by Christ and given the power to forgive sins and cast out demons.
They had a ministry to do.
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Very good point. Christ could have been talking about the Holy Spirit coming to all and indwelling all His children.
The indwelling Holy Spirit is God Himself and the Holy Spirit testifies of Christ.
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Mt. 16 says the coming of the son of man includes the son of man coming in the glory of his father with his angels at which point will repay each man for his deeds. So this can't be about Jesus simply "coming on a ministry mission".
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Polar Bear Quest
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Thanks for this post, the website you posted also deals with a bunch of other bible "errors" that I couldn't figure out the answer to.
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"The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, 'Lo, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you."
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HenryM
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There is a problem, I believe, in taking God's word in one and only one way, to the exclusion of all others. Isn't God's creation complex and sophisticated?
There are explanations that adequately explain what those Jesus' words meant in immediate term, but God's words are for all times and all generations, not just for immediate ones. So I am primarily interested in what does those words mean for our time and our generation.
If we are at the cusp of end of days, for which there is enough clues that we are, I would say that Matthew 10:23 means that space to persecute Christians won't be exhausted before God's wrath, and subsequent coming of the Son of Man as described in Revelation, begins. In other words, there is always a place to flee from satan, both spiritually and physically. (God's wrath, by the way, is also in a way coming of the Son of Man, since Jesus is opening the seals and directing the judgements of the end of time.)
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Jesus was missremebered concerning this prophetic teaching about the destruction of Israel, the outpouring of the "spirit of truth" and the second coming Jesus was diplomatic in his treatment of what he knew to be the truth about his return visit in a future age.
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Thankful you've remembered all of this correctly. We really are thankful that you know all of this, where others have "misremembered" it. The question is how do you know it. What's your source, Colter? Dreams, visions, extra-biblical writings? How do you come up with all of these things that the Church has gotten wrong for 2,000 years?
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Brian Mcnamee
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Hi this is really not a chapter dedicated to the 2nd coming and is more a chapter on the great commission. The 1st message was to preach the kingdom of God was at hand. Jesus is the king over all eternity and yet when tempted by Satan was offered all the kingdoms of this world at a time if he would bow down to Satan. Rev makes it clear that there is a coming future day when the angels declare the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Christ and He shall reign forever. You see the apostles ask Jesus right before he ascends will you at this time restore the kingdom? Jesus answered “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. So Jesus affirms the kingdom will be returning to Israel. Some of the passages that deal with the kingdom of Messiah such as Daniel 2 show the transfer of the kingdom from Satan to Jesus, this is where the stone cut without hands descends and crushes the image of the kingdoms of man and grinds them to powder so no trace is left and this stone becomes a mountain and covers the earth and this kingdom will have no end. Jesus is the stone and if you read all of Zech 14 you will see the very day the stone descends descrobed graphically as the LORD comes with His saints and splits the Mt of Olives and melts his enemies and takes over through a great and wonderful day that even at night it shall be light and the LORD is king over all the earth from that day on. The passage says all the nations from that point on must come to Jerusalem to keep the feast of Tabernacles once a year or they will get no rain. There is a clear continuation of events on this earth after the 2nd coming of Jesus. This is when Satan is bound for 1000 years and at the end indeed will be released one last time to deceive those who would follow.
So in Mathew 10 Jesus says you will not finish going through Jerusalem and indeed the message of the gospel is still going through the streets of Jerusalem. They were hated by all and were killed for confessing Jesus before man. The seeing of the Lord in his glory was true as on the Mt Jesus was transfigured before them when Elijah and Moses appeared.
So in Mathew 10 Jesus says you will not finish going through Jerusalem and indeed the message of the gospel is still going through the streets of Jerusalem. They were hated by all and were killed for confessing Jesus before man. The seeing of the Lord in his glory was true as on the Mt Jesus was transfigured before them when Elijah and Moses appeared.
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That's a fair question, noteing it's been a controversy for ages among biblical scholars.
In the early 20the century, under the authority of Jesus Christ, in Chicago Illinois, another and massive revelation took place. It contains a tremendous amount of information about God, the universe and the entire life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. We can compare what he actually said with what was remembered when they decided to write the gospels. This particular area was somewhat garbled and added to later.
I'm a student of both the Bible and the Urantia revelation. This specific except will answer your question. Tuesday Evening on Mount Olivet: Paper 176, The Urantia Book
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claninja
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I think this judgment has to do with the context of the end of the Jewish age, with Israel being the vessel of wrath and the gentiles and remnant elect Jews being the vessels of mercy: Romans 9.
As we can see in the parable of the sheep and the goats, the sheep did not even know they were doing righteous works for God. This appears to fulfill Isaiah 65:1 and Paul elaborates on this in Romans 9:30, that the gentiles who did not pursue righteousness did obtain it.
The goats appear to think they are doing righteous works for God, but are really not. Paul states in Romans 9:31, that Israel pursued righteousness but did not obtain it.
God Judged national Israel with the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple, and the old covenant. So far for the past 2000 years, this has been an everlasting judgment.
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The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father.
We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings):
[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)
[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)
[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)
[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)
Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)
These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16).
Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).
Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation.
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And Jesus Himself EXPLICITLY called that Judgement "The Coming of the Lord of the Vineyard"
Matthew 21:40
He must be correct.
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