The Coming of the Son of Man

claninja · Jun 15, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Sure, but they were not the 'holy people'
They did not believe in Christ, and were not sanctified by faith in Him were they.

Deuteronomy 7:6 for a holy people art thou to Jehovah thy God; on thee hath Jehovah thy God fixed, to be to Him for a peculiar people, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the ground.

Deuteronomy 28:9 'Jehovah doth establish thee to Himself for a holy people, as He hath sworn to thee, when thou keepest the commands of Jehovah thy God, and hast walked in His ways;

Jeremiah 2:3 Holy is Israel to Jehovah, The first-fruit of His increase, All consuming him are guilty, Evil cometh in unto them, an affirmation of Jehovah.

Yes, they were the "holy people" chosen and elect by God. As Paul states in Romans 11, Israel is holy because of the root. However, they were broken off (scattered) for a specific purpose: so that salvation may come to the gentiles. But the gentiles must remain humble, because they are not the natural branches and God can easily cut them out and bring back the natural branches (Israel).

Romans 11:13-24
For to you I speak — to the nations — inasmuch as I am indeed an apostle of nations, my ministration I do glorify; 14if by any means I shall arouse to jealousy mine own flesh, and shall save some of them, 15for if the casting away of them [is] a reconciliation of the world, what the reception — if not life out of the dead? 16and if the first-fruit [is] holy, the lump also; and if the root [is] holy, the branches also.

17And if certain of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wast graffed in among them, and a fellow-partaker of the root and of the fatness of the olive tree didst become — 18do not boast against the branches; and if thou dost boast, thou dost not bear the root, but the root thee! 19Thou wilt say, then, ‘The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in;’ right! 20by unbelief they were broken off, and thou hast stood by faith; be not high-minded, but be fearing; 21for if God the natural branches did not spare — lest perhaps He also shall not spare thee. 22Lo, then, goodness and severity of God — upon those indeed who fell, severity; and upon thee, goodness, if thou mayest remain in the goodness, otherwise, thou also shalt be cut off. 23And those also, if they may not remain in unbelief, shall be graffed in, for God is able again to graff them in; 24for if thou, out of the olive tree, wild by nature, wast cut out, and, contrary to nature, wast graffed into a good olive tree, how much rather shall they, who [are] according to nature, be graffed into their own olive tree?

claninja · Jun 15, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Daniel 7 v25, the times are the 42 months, 3.5 years where the saints of Christ suffer a revealed antichrist's persecution.

25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

42 months.

Nero started persecuting the Christians in the summer of 64AD and he committed suicide in 68AD =3.5 years

sdowney717 · Jun 15, 2017

claninja said:
Deuteronomy 7:6 for a holy people art thou to Jehovah thy God; on thee hath Jehovah thy God fixed, to be to Him for a peculiar people, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the ground.

Deuteronomy 28:9 'Jehovah doth establish thee to Himself for a holy people, as He hath sworn to thee, when thou keepest the commands of Jehovah thy God, and hast walked in His ways;

Jeremiah 2:3 Holy is Israel to Jehovah, The first-fruit of His increase, All consuming him are guilty, Evil cometh in unto them, an affirmation of Jehovah.

Yes, they were the "holy people" chosen and elect by God. As Paul states in Romans 11, Israel is holy because of the root. However, they were broken off (scattered) for a specific purpose: so that salvation may come to the gentiles. But the gentiles must remain humble, because they are not the natural branches and God can easily cut them out and bring back the natural branches (Israel).

Romans 11:13-24
For to you I speak — to the nations — inasmuch as I am indeed an apostle of nations, my ministration I do glorify; 14if by any means I shall arouse to jealousy mine own flesh, and shall save some of them, 15for if the casting away of them [is] a reconciliation of the world, what the reception — if not life out of the dead? 16and if the first-fruit [is] holy, the lump also; and if the root [is] holy, the branches also.

17And if certain of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wast graffed in among them, and a fellow-partaker of the root and of the fatness of the olive tree didst become — 18do not boast against the branches; and if thou dost boast, thou dost not bear the root, but the root thee! 19Thou wilt say, then, ‘The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in;’ right! 20by unbelief they were broken off, and thou hast stood by faith; be not high-minded, but be fearing; 21for if God the natural branches did not spare — lest perhaps He also shall not spare thee. 22Lo, then, goodness and severity of God — upon those indeed who fell, severity; and upon thee, goodness, if thou mayest remain in the goodness, otherwise, thou also shalt be cut off. 23And those also, if they may not remain in unbelief, shall be graffed in, for God is able again to graff them in; 24for if thou, out of the olive tree, wild by nature, wast cut out, and, contrary to nature, wast graffed into a good olive tree, how much rather shall they, who [are] according to nature, be graffed into their own olive tree?

So 'holy people' go to hell?
Not all Israel is of Israel.
God never casts away His people whom He foreknew as His people.
But do not include all of Israel as His people, or holy either, most of them were not holy, not His children according to the Spirit and God was not pleased with them and overthrew them destroying them.

Romans 11New King James Version (NKJV)
Israel’s Rejection Not Total
11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

Romans 9, not all Israel are the 'holy people of God'

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

sdowney717 · Jun 15, 2017

Back in the day, and today, many Israelites were not the children of God. Yes the root is holy, the stump, the branches. But only the ones God foreknew He does never cast away, and they are the holy children of God, not those others, the outsiders, destiny in the outer darkness of hell, they who opposed God and rejected Christ, were resistant to the Holy Spirit, they were not of the root, lump or branches, they were cut off from the true vine, are branches that will never bear fruit unto holiness because Satan is their father and they desire to do his will, not Christ's or God's will, they certainly are not the 'holy people'.

At best you can call them 'cultivated branches that bear no good fruit for God',
And as such they are fit only to be burned in the fire. Really holy means to be a saint, sanctified by God.

And Romans 11, the later part is written about national groups, the jews versus the gentiles generally, not members individual salvation. The gist is Paul is teaching that Israel was cut off due to the mystery of hardening of unbelief so that salvation would go to the gentile nations, and after their full number has been saved, (all those God foreknew in love as His holy people, then salvation will turn back to Israel at the end and God would save them, again only the ones He foreknew as His people.

God has foreordained, predetermined their situation as it is written.
They could not believe because God has blinded their eyes and God has hardened their hearts.
Lest they repent and believe and God has to heal them.
A serious judgement against them, before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, God spoke forth their fate. God fulfills His words that He speaks.

John 12
37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”

41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

claninja · Jun 15, 2017

sdowney717 said:
So 'holy people' go to hell?

Where does it say that?

claninja · Jun 15, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Back in the day, and today, many Israelites were not the children of God. Yes the root is holy, the stump, the branches. But only the ones God foreknew He does never cast away, and they are the holy children of God, not those others, the outsiders, destiny in the outer darkness of hell, they who opposed God and rejected Christ, were resistant to the Holy Spirit, they were not of the root, lump or branches, they were cut off from the true vine, are branches that will never bear fruit unto holiness because Satan is their father and they desire to do his will, not Christ's or God's will, they certainly are not the 'holy people'.

At best you can call them 'cultivated branches that bear no good fruit for God',
And as such they are fit only to be burned in the fire. Really holy means to be a saint, sanctified by God.

And Romans 11, the later part is written about national groups, the jews versus the gentiles generally, not members individual salvation. The gist is Paul is teaching that Israel was cut off due to the mystery of hardening of unbelief so that salvation would go to the gentile nations, and after their full number has been saved, (all those God foreknew in love as His holy people, then salvation will turn back to Israel at the end and God would save them, again only the ones He foreknew as His people.

God has foreordained, predetermined their situation as it is written.
They could not believe because God has blinded their eyes and God has hardened their hearts.
Lest they repent and believe and God has to heal them.
A serious judgement against them, before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, God spoke forth their fate. God fulfills His words that He speaks.

John 12
37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”

41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

You are leaving out some things in Romans 11:25-42
Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. 30 Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

claninja · Jun 15, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Back in the day, and today, many Israelites were not the children of God. Yes the root is holy, the stump, the branches. But only the ones God foreknew He does never cast away, and they are the holy children of God, not those others, the outsiders, destiny in the outer darkness of hell, they who opposed God and rejected Christ, were resistant to the Holy Spirit, they were not of the root, lump or branches, they were cut off from the true vine, are branches that will never bear fruit unto holiness because Satan is their father and they desire to do his will, not Christ's or God's will, they certainly are not the 'holy people'.

At best you can call them 'cultivated branches that bear no good fruit for God',
And as such they are fit only to be burned in the fire. Really holy means to be a saint, sanctified by God.

And Romans 11, the later part is written about national groups, the jews versus the gentiles generally, not members individual salvation. The gist is Paul is teaching that Israel was cut off due to the mystery of hardening of unbelief so that salvation would go to the gentile nations, and after their full number has been saved, (all those God foreknew in love as His holy people, then salvation will turn back to Israel at the end and God would save them, again only the ones He foreknew as His people.

God has foreordained, predetermined their situation as it is written.
They could not believe because God has blinded their eyes and God has hardened their hearts.
Lest they repent and believe and God has to heal them.
A serious judgement against them, before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, God spoke forth their fate. God fulfills His words that He speaks.

John 12
37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”

41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

I'm also not completely understanding your argument here. Please correct me if I am wrong. You are saying the "holy people" referred to in Daniel 12 are the saints/believers and yet their power is scattered at the time of the end? But when I make the argument that the "holy People" is Israel, you said "so holy people go to hell"?

claninja · Jun 15, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Back in the day, and today, many Israelites were not the children of God

Right, it is not the children of Ishmael who the promises were made to, but of Isaac. It is not the children of Esau who the promises were made to, but of Jacob.

sdowney717 · Jun 15, 2017

claninja said:
I'm also not completely understanding your argument here. Please correct me if I am wrong. You are saying the "holy people" referred to in Daniel 12 are the saints/believers and yet their power is scattered at the time of the end? But when I make the argument that the "holy People" is Israel, you said "so holy people go to hell"?

No you suggested 'holy people' go to hell by inference.
You were saying all of Israel are the holy people.
Yet scripture tells us they are not the children of God but only a few were.
And back then Paul tells us only a remnant were believers in Christ.
If all of Israel were the holy people, then all of them would go to heaven.
Unbelievers in Christ can not be considered holy people.

claninja · Jun 15, 2017

sdowney717 said:
No you suggested 'holy people' go to hell by inference.
You were saying all of Israel are the holy people.
Yet scripture tells us they are not the children of God but only a few were.
And back then Paul tells us only a remnant were believers in Christ.
If all of Israel were the holy people, then all of them would go to heaven.
Unbelievers in Christ can not be considered holy people.

No, never suggested the "holy people" go to hell. They were cut off, which does not mean hell.

So, according to you, it's not the power of Israel that is scattered/shattered by God, it is the power of Christians that is scattered/shattered?

sdowney717 · Jun 16, 2017

claninja said:
No, never suggested the "holy people" go to hell. They were cut off, which does not mean hell.

So, according to you, it's not the power of Israel that is scattered/shattered by God, it is the power of Christians that is scattered/shattered?

Yes, the power is the influence of Christians in the world being shattered, not the power of God in their life.
Daniel 7
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

claninja · Jun 16, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Yes, the power is the influence of Christians in the world being shattered, not the power of God in their life.
Daniel 7
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

Thank you, that clears it up a little bit better for me. Even I'll admit, these are hard verses to understand. If they weren't, everyone might agree on the meanings

. And even looking up the commentaries on Daniel 12:7 it seems that it is also split, while some say the "holy People" is Israel, others say it is the Church.
But when Jesus explains in Luke 21:20-24 that the desolation of Jerusalem will occur shortly after it is surrounded by armies (which happened in the Jewish roman war), he also explains in Luke 21:24 that the Jews will fall by the sword and be led captive among all nations (this scattering happened in 70AD), until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.

The Jews could only adhere to the law (at least attempt to) if the temple was there. No temple=unable to fully adhere to the old testament laws. By the temple destruction and scattering of the Jews among the nations, their age officially ended, along with the old covenant with God (their power).

I agree with you that in Daniel 7 it is the saints being persecuted, but I see it as those who lived during the generation of Christ. I see it that way because in Daniel 7:11-14, the son of man was presented before the ancient of days and given glory and kingdom, and this kingdom shall not pass away. This took place after the judgment of the beast. Jesus tells his disciples that they would not taste death before seeing the son of man come in his kingdom Matthew 16:28. And Christ is also currently ruling at the right hand of God: Acts 7:56, Hebrews 8:1.

sdowney717 · Jun 16, 2017

claninja said:
Thank you, that clears it up a little bit better for me. Even I'll admit, these are hard verses to understand. If they weren't, everyone might agree on the meanings . And even looking up the commentaries on Daniel 12:7 it seems that it is also split, while some say the "holy People" is Israel, others say it is the Church.
But when Jesus explains in Luke 21:20-24 that the desolation of Jerusalem will occur shortly after it is surrounded by armies (which happened in the Jewish roman war), he also explains in Luke 21:24 that the Jews will fall by the sword and be led captive among all nations (this scattering happened in 70AD), until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.

The Jews could only adhere to the law (at least attempt to) if the temple was there. No temple=unable to fully adhere to the old testament laws. By the temple destruction and scattering of the Jews among the nations, their age officially ended, along with the old covenant with God (their power).

I agree with you that in Daniel 7 it is the saints being persecuted, but I see it as those who lived during the generation of Christ. I see it that way because in Daniel 7:11-14, the son of man was presented before the ancient of days and given glory and kingdom, and this kingdom shall not pass away. This took place after the judgment of the beast. Jesus tells his disciples that they would not taste death before seeing the son of man come in his kingdom Matthew 16:28. And Christ is also currently ruling at the right hand of God: Acts 7:56, Hebrews 8:1.

Even if the jewish temple existed, the presence of God is no longer in a building, the Spirit inhabits His people. Those who believe in Christ are one spirit with Him.
The Old covenant is abolished, passed away.
Even if the Ark of the covenant was here, there would no longer be any of God's power present inside.
The 'holy people' are all the people God foreknows as His own people from OT times into the NT times, those whom He calls, which includes some jews and some gentiles. there was salvation by faith in the OT times, God said the righteous shall live by his faith, Habakkuk 2:4 , and Abraham was justified by his faith, Genesis 15:6, before the giving of the Law by Moses, only afterwards doing good works.

Romans 9
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

sdowney717 · Jun 16, 2017

28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Jesus said after His resurrection that He would ascend back to the Father and be glorified. That is what He meant by coming into His kingdom.

John 17
4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

John 20:17
Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

When He ascended he led captivity captive and gave spiritual gifts to men.
People were alive who were witnesses of His glory and grace which they beheld in Him, and witnessed his bodily assumption into heaven to be glorified with God, Stephen saw Him standing at the right hand of God. No doubt many others witnessed such things that were not written down, as John said all the books in the world could not contain all the things they witnessed of Him. But the things that are written down are so that you may know and believe that you have life in Christ.

Ephesians 4:7-9New King James Version (NKJV)
Spiritual Gifts
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also firstdescended into the lower parts of the earth?

John would have written this after he witnessed Chris'ts ascension to the right hand of the Father.

John 1:14
[ The Word Becomes Flesh ] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

claninja · Jun 16, 2017

sdowney717 said:
28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Jesus said after His resurrection that He would ascend back to the Father and be glorified. That is what He meant by coming into His kingdom.

Yes, I completely agree with you, as this is the point I am making. In Daniel 7:11-14, the son of man is given glory and a kingdom. This occurs after the beast and horns are destroyed. The coming of Jesus is not his return, but his inheritance of the glory and everlasting kingdom. I'm not saying that he won't return, just that the phrase coming of the son of man has to with his kingdom. We know then, that the son of Man came into his kingdom during the disciple's generation.

sdowney717 said:
The 'holy people' are all the people God foreknows as His own people from OT times into the NT times, those whom He calls, which includes some jews and some gentiles. there was salvation by faith in the OT times, God said the righteous shall live by his faith, Habakkuk 2:4 , and Abraham was justified by his faith, Genesis 15:6, before the giving of the Law by Moses, only afterwards doing good works.

I'm not saying other people can't be holy, but specifically in the context of the old testament and up until Christ's death and the destruction of the temple, Israel was God's holy people.
In Daniel 12, the subjects of the prophecy are "your" people, which would indicate the Jews, as they are Daniel's people.

sdowney717 said:
Even if the Jewish temple existed, the presence of God is no longer in a building, the Spirit inhabits His people. Those who believe in Christ are one spirit with Him.
The Old covenant is abolished, passed away.

Yes, I completely agree with you, as this is the point I am making. The temple destruction is a symbol that the old covenant Jewish age passed away. Israel can't possibly adhere the old testament law, as sacrifices had to be done in the temple. If a new temple was built and sacrifices resumed, do you think that would be an abomination to God, as Christ was the ultimate sacrifice?

sdowney717 said:
Romans 9
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

We know this is about Israel. Israel is the vessel of destruction, while the gentiles and remnant elect Jews are the vessels are mercy. According to Paul, If it wasn't for the remnant elect Jews, Israel would have become like Sodom and Gomorrah

Romans 9:27-29
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute his sentence upon the earth with rigor and dispatch.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us children,
we would have fared like Sodom and been made like Gomor′rah.”

The Coming of the Son of Man

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