Seventy Weeks Are Determined Upon Thy People!

Quasar92 said:

The present day Church was founded by Jesus and activated with the arrival of the Holy Spirit, at Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3. It is an Ekklesia of one group of people who belong to the one body of Christ. At the time Christ returns for everyone who belongs to Him, left on earth, alive at the time of His return, He will bring all those who previously died in Him, when He comes, in 1 Thess.4:14-16. They will all meet Jesus in the sky, from where He will take them all to heaven with Him, according to John 14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. The Church age ends at this point.

Those who become the tribulation saints, are all non-believers at the beginning of the seven year tribulation, left behind when the Church is CAUGHT UP to the Lord. Who will be brought to the Lord by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, seen as the Great Multitude in Rev.7:1-17. The Great Multitude are also the tribulation martyrs/saints recorded at the first resurrection in Rev.20:4 and 6. They do not belong to the raptured Church group, but rather a group of the ELECT/brethren, who belong to Christ.

At the time of Jesus reign on earth for 1,000 years, the raptured Church and the tribulation saints, plus all those who will be saved during the Millennium will be the brethren/elect of Jesus Christ. All members of the one body of Christ.


Quasar92

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Not certain which of these duplicate posts I should respond to, so I will try my luck with this one .


Can you simplify your answers some? If John's brethren are those that have the testimony of Jesus, wouldn't that mean these brethren that have the testimony of Jesus, they are of the church because John is of the church? Should it be more complicated than that, or should it instead be that simple?

Ron Gurley said:

So when does Israel's clock START again?! Read Jesus' Prophecy of the End of the Age...Matthew 24.
...Jesus' prophecy and SIGNS of the "end of the (CHURCH) age" of Grace

QUESTIONS:
3 As He (Jesus) was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the DISCIPLES came to Him privately, saying,
"Tell us, (prophesy!)
1. WHEN will these THINGS happen, and
2. what will be the SIGN(s) of "Your (Second) COMING", and
3. (what will be the SIGN(s)) of "the end of the (Church) age"?"

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Wait, what?

Your position is that The Disciples were asking Jesus about the end of an age that:
1) Had not yet even begun at the time they asked about it's end?
2) They had no idea was even coming?

How did they know to ask when it would end, if they had no idea it was even coming?

Biblewriter said:

Actually, the censorship was real, and extensive. We know, for instance, that "many" of the early writers followed the lead of Papias and Irenaeus, from a statement by Eusebius complaining about how many of them had done so. Yet we only have a few such documents.

Likewise, not even one copy of the very oldest known Christian commentary on end time prophecy has survived. The only reason we even know about it is because ten other writers included very short quotations from this very extensive (five volume) work.

Elgin S. Moyer, on page 319 of his “Who Was Who in Church History,” (Chicago, Moody, 1962) indicated that this work, which as called “Exposition of the Lord’s Oracles,” was lost sometime around the year 1218. This was also suggested by Cf. Schaff, in his “History,” 2:695n.


In 1559, The Roman Inquisition published its first version of its famous "Index Librorum Prohibitorum," which is regarded as the earliest systematically kept record of prohibited literature.


And finally, in later antiquity Oxyrhynchus was famous for its many churches and monasteries.
POxy - Oxyrhynchus Online!

The Oxyrhynchus Papyri, which are thought to date from the 1st to the 6th century, prove that many ancient volumes were simply sent to a dump and buried. In the dump for the ancient Egyptian city of Oxyrhynchus, archeologists have found around 500,000 pieces of papyri, of which about 10% were literary. 75 volumes of research on the manuscripts have been published, and at least 40 more are planned. There are still many documents that have not been identified.
Ancient Inscriptions, Epigraphy, and Papyrology

POxy - Oxyrhynchus Online!

Among the Christian texts found at Oxyrhynchus, were fragments of early non-canonical Gospels, Oxyrhynchus 840 (3rd century AD) and Oxyrhynchus 1224 (4th century AD). Other Oxyrhynchus texts preserve parts of Matthew 1 (3rd century: P2 and P401), 11–12 and 19 (3rd to 4th century: P2384, 2385); Mark 10–11 (5th to 6th century: P3); John 1, and 20 (3rd century: P208); Romans 1 (4th century: P209); the First Epistle of John (4th-5th century: P402); the Apocalypse of Baruch (chapters 12–14; 4th or 5th century: P403); the Gospel according to the Hebrews (3rd century AD: P655); The Shepherd of Hermas (3rd or 4th century: P404), and a work of Irenaeus, (3rd century: P405). There are many parts of other canonical books as well as many early Christian hymns, prayers, and letters also found among them.

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Duly noted.

But the most significant (regarding the papacy) documents escaped - those identifying the papacy as antichrist, the man of sin.

parousia70 said:

Wait, what?

Your position is that The Disciples were asking Jesus about the end of an age that:
1) Had not yet even begun at the time they asked about it's end?
2) They had no idea was even coming?

How did they know to ask when it would end, if they had no idea it was even coming?

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Good questions. I don't think they should be all that difficult to answer though. Take the following for instance.

Matthew 21:23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?


Apparently this is when He initially entered the temple before the Discourse with His disciples privately.


Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.


This apparently is when He departs the temple, thus leads to the Discourse. Now just read eveything said between Matthew 21:23 and Matthew 24:1, and there should be plenty of reasons why the disciples would have been asking Him about His coming and the end of the world. But if you can't find anything between Matthew 21:23 and Matthew 24:1, you are not looking very hard IMO.

Ron Gurley said:

Here's my best guess at a "time line"...Based primary on Jesus' Prophecy of the "end of the ages" ....Matthew 24

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Instead of us guessing, why don't you compare Luke's clear timeline to the less clear timeline of Matthew.

Subtitles and text from the NKJV


Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple

Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　
Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　
Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　
Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　
Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."　
(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.　)

Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution

Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　
Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　
(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)

Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　
(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)
(Mark 13:9, Acts 22:19-20)

Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　
Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　
Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　
Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　
Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　
(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.)　

Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　
Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　
(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　

Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
　(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),) (Read John 10:22 to understand the feast of Hanukkah and its connection to the "abomination of desolation" during 167 BC.)

Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　
(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　

Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　
Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　
(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　)

Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　
(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　

Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　

Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

.

DavidPT said:

Good questions.

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Yes they are.

Now just read eveything said between Matthew 21:23 and Matthew 24:1, and there should be plenty of reasons why the disciples would have been asking Him about His coming and the end of the world. But if you can't find anything between Matthew 21:23 and Matthew 24:1, you are not looking very hard IMO.

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But, again, you claimed they were asking about the end of the "Church age", which again, they had no idea was even coming..
How could they have asked about the end of the "Church age" as you claimed, when they had no idea it was coming and it had no yet started when they asked about it's end?

Perhaps you misspoke?

parousia70 said:

Yes they are.



But, again, you claimed they were asking about the end of the "Church age", which again, they had no idea was even coming..
How could they have asked about the end of the "Church age" as you claimed, when they had no idea it was coming and it had no yet started when they asked about it's end?

Perhaps you misspoke?

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Even though they at the time may not have understood it to mean the church age, why does that even matter? They clearly asked about the end of the world. Would there have been some reason for them to think the world never ends at some point?

DavidPT said:

Even though they at the time may not have understood it to mean the church age, why does that even matter? They clearly asked about the end of the world.

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But they patently did NOT ask about the "end of the world".. they asked about the "end of the age".(Grk= Aion)

They asked about the end of the age that was present at the time they asked, so they clearly could not have been asking about the end of the "Church age" as you claimed.

Would there have been some reason for them to think the world never ends at some point?

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Absolutely! For Scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)

Of course, the notion that the age of the "everlasting" Gospel has an end, is polar opposite to the scriptural mandate of its everlasting nature.

parousia70 said:

But they patently did NOT ask about the "end of the world".. they asked about the "end of the age".(Grk= Aion)

They asked about the end of the age that was present at the time they asked, so they clearly could not have been asking about the end of the "Church age" as you claimed.

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Can you remind me where I ever even mentioned the church age in one of these posts since you claim I claimed this. I need to see the post you are basing this on in order to see if I indeed said that or that you only assumed I was claiming that when I may not have been.

Quasar92 said:

The Church age will end at the rapture recorded in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8, and will exist no longer.

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The New Covenant is "everlasting" in the verse below.
Therefore the "Church Age" cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.

Heb 13:20　 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,　


This is confirmed by those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11.
The term "tribulation saints" is an invention of modern Dispensational Theology, which was brought to America by John Darby about the time of the Civil War.

The New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13. It is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

The Greek word "diatheke" (G1242) is translated in some versions as "testament" and in other versions as "covenant". Both words are used in the KJV for "diatheke".
Therefore, the New Testament is a series of books about the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.


Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　 ( G1242)

Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　


The 70 weeks prophecy is a timeline about the fulfillment of the New Covenant.
The last week was a time when the Gospel was taken first to Daniel's people, the Israelites. It ended when Stephen reviewed the history of Israel and was then stoned. After that the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles. Nobody can deny that Christ commanded the Gospel be taken first to His people.

There will be no future period of time when modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the New Covenant Church.
The Olive Tree of Romans 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree.
Paul provides no path to salvation outside of being grafted into the Olive Tree, through faith in Christ.

We find in Hebrews 8:13 that the Old Covenant has been made "obsolete" by the New Covenant.
How will people be saved outside of the New Covenant, if the Old Covenant is now obsolete?

If God ripped the temple veil in half on the day of Calvary, who is going to repair it?

There is no Plan B of salvation, during a future time.


..........................................................

From the 1599 Geneva Bible
Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.............................................
Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023
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Quasar92 said:

The Church age will end at the rapture recorded in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8, and will exist no longer. You are reading prophecy in Rev., and all believers, when those of the previous Church together with the tribulation saints, all become the elect/brethren of Jesus during His Millennial kingdom and forever after. That will include all of believing Israel as well, who wiil also be a part of the elect/brethren group of the others.


Quasar92

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Here's another question or two then. When one has the testimony of Jesus, how do they initially acquire this? If the church is raptured, thus leaving unbelievers behind, who some allegedly become tribulation saints, and that Revelation 12:17 tells us---- And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ----how did these alleged left behind unbelievers end up having the testimony of Jesus Christ at some point?

Quasar92 said:

3. The New Covenant is everlasting. Reference, however, is NOT to the New Covenant, but rather to the present day Church age, which IS NOT everlasting!

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And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, (Revelation 14:6)

Since the Gospel, which SOLE PURPOSE for existence is to be "preached to sinners on earth and call them to salvation" is "everlasting", then it can have no terminus to it's purpose.

You in contrast, are claiming there will be a terminus to the purpose of the age of the "everlasting Gospel"

Scripture however, clearly teaches The earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)

That God wishes to spend eternity calling sinners to salvation should bring you great Joy.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:7)

DavidPT said:

Can you remind me where I ever even mentioned the church age in one of these posts since you claim I claimed this. I need to see the post you are basing this on in order to see if I indeed said that or that you only assumed I was claiming that when I may not have been.

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My Bad... it was Ron Gurley who said that... But you happened to quote my reply to Him so I picked up with you where I left off with Him...

But no matter, your positions appear to be the same.

My position is that the Apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age they were born into and living in, namely the Mosaic Covenant age, which came to a fiery end in that generation, on time, as promised by their master, with not one stone left upon another.

They could not have been asking about the end of a different, future age they had no idea was even going to exist. Jesus, of course, never corrects them.

parousia70 said:

My Bad... it was Ron Gurley who said that... But you happened to quote my reply to Him so I picked up with you where I left off with Him...

But no matter, your positions appear to be the same.

My position is that the Apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age they were born into and living in, namely the Mosaic Covenant age, which came to a fiery end in that generation, on time, as promised by their master, with not one stone left upon another.

They could not have been asking about the end of a different, future age they had no idea was even going to exist. Jesus, of course, never corrects them.

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How do we know if a person has gone a bit far in the preterist direction?

Let us look at the clear timeline in Luke's Gospel found below.

Subtitles are from the NKJV

Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem


Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　


The coming of Christ is not found at the destruction and captivity of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
It comes after, based on Luke 21:24.

A time known as "the times of the Gentiles" is to be fulfilled after 70 AD.
Therefore, Christ remained seated at the Father's right hand during 70 AD, while God allowed the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and take those remaining alive captive.

Christ will return after "the times of the Gentiles" is concluded.

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　
Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　
Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　


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BABerean2 said:

Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　

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Of course, the parallel verse in Revelation shows us EXACTLY how long that "Times of gentile trampling" was to last:

But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. (Revelation 11:2)

The coming of Christ is not found at the destruction and captivity of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

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Jesus, Lord of the Vineyard & Chief cornerstone, did indeed come and Crush those wicked men to powder in those days of vengeance. (Matthew 21:33-45)

parousia70 said:

Of course, the parallel verse in Revelation shows us EXACTLY how long that "Times of gentile trampling" was to last:

But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. (Revelation 11:2)




Jesus, Lord of the Vineyard & Chief cornerstone, did indeed come and Crush those wicked men to powder in those days of vengeance. (Matthew 21:33-45)

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Which was the complete fulfillment of the time of Jacob's Troubles for the Jews.

Jesus foretold the time of Jacob’s Trouble in His Olivet Discourse and told His disciples what sign to look for and how to escape the coming judgment.

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ ; Daniel 12:11 spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” Matthew 24:15

Luke 21:20-21 clarifies what the abomination of desolation was. “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.”

The abomination was the detestable enemies of the Jews, the Romans; who would surround Jerusalem, and stand in the holy land to make the place a ‘desolation‘.

Most of the warnings in Jesus Olivet Discourse were fulfilled in 70 A.D., not in the end times.

The context of “those who are in Judea” confirms that prophecy applied to the time of Jerusalem’s destruction in 70 A.D., not the end times. He was warning His disciples who were in Judea.

The context of “pray that your flight is not on the Sabbath” does not apply to the end times, as there are no prohibitions regarding the Sabbath.

But the Jewish rulers would have impeded the Christians from escaping on the Sabbath, because they had so many rules.

Luke 21:24 confirms the context of Jesus Olivet Discourse.

“And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

This matches Daniel 9:26-27,

“The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

It’s telling us that there is a determined period of time that the Roman army (gentiles) will desolate the Jews.

Daniel 12 gives us more details about the “time of the Gentiles.” It says that it will be for a total of 1,335 days, which was fulfilled as the Roman army surrounded the city in 66 A.D. and then completed their siege in 70 A.D.

You can read more about the 1,335 day timeline by reading
Daniel 12 Is Not About The Antichrist Or The End Times

The ‘people of the prince‘ in Daniel 9:26 was the Roman army, who poured into the city as a flood in 70 A.D.

“..the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”

So the ‘prince‘ in the 70th week of Daniel is NOT an end-times Antichrist.

And since it does not apply to an end-time Antichrist, the foundation for the 7-year tribulation is invalid. You can read more about this by clicking on 70 Weeks Of Daniel study.

Because of the Jews abominations against God, He made them desolate.

Because of all of the Jews abominations, including delivering Jesus up to be killed, and then killing His disciples, Jesus poured out His wrath on the Jews, through the Roman army.

When Matthew recorded the words “And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” in Matthew 24:3, he no doubt understood “Jesus coming” as meaning His coming in vengeance against the Jews, through the Romans, to end the “latter days” age of the Jewish kingdom.

The “latter days” refers to the time period that occurred when the Jews were released from Babylon in 457 B.C. to 70 A.D when the city, temple and people were desolated.

The Roman army desolated the people and the city.

Matthew 24:21 warned them “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

This the time of Jacob’s Trouble.

Historians record that none of the wicked Jews (who rejected Jesus and who slew the messengers He sent to them) understood what was coming.

Up to the very day of the capture of the temple by the Romans in 70 A.D., they were deceived by false prophets, and were fatuously looking for a miraculous intervention on their behalf.

But abundant documentation reveals that before the destruction of Jerusalem, all the Christians inside the city were able to flee to the mountains and found refuge. Not one Christian perished in the siege, because they saw the sign that Jesus revealed to them.

The Roman army surrounded the city causing death by famine and disease.

The Jews granaries and storehouses of food were destroyed, and supply lines into the city were cut off.

Under pressure of the famine many Jews went out at night into the valleys in search of food. Hundred of Jews were caught every day, tortured and crucified in sight of those on the walls of the city.

The number became so great that there was not enough crosses for the victims, so several were often nailed to one cross.

Jewish infighting led to 100’s of thousands of deaths.

Murders by the Zealots and Idumeans led to 100’s of thousands of deaths, and all of that occurred before the Roman army entered the city.

Josephus relates the case of one prominent man who, because of the ‘great tribulation‘ happening all around, and in order to save his family from a worse fate, killed first his father and mother with the sword–they willingly submitting–and afterwards his wife and children, finally taking his own life.

The Roman army killed 100′s of thousands of Jews by the sword.

Before the Roman army invaded Jerusalem, Titus sent Josephus to speak to the Jews, offering them clemency, and exhorting them to yield.

Josephus made a most earnest plea to them not to resist the might of Rome, pointing out that God was no longer with them.

But it was to no purpose. The Jews detested the Romans. And they believed that they would be saved.

Titus sought to preserve the beautiful temple, but the Romans soldiers were so enraged at the Jews, that they pushed all of the stones of the temple down, fulfilling Jesus words.

According to Josephus the city was so upheaved and dug up that it was difficult to believe it had ever been inhabited.

A total of 1.1 million Jews died, and 97,000 Jews were taken captive and sold as slaves, fulfilling Luke 21:24.

Some were put into bonds and sold to slavery in the Egyptian mines, thus fulfilling several prophecies that they should be sold into Egypt again, from which God had delivered them.

The destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans is a complete fulfillment of the prophecy.

These passages clearly reveal that “the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,” refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, by the armies of Titus.

Why then should we ignore an obvious historical fulfillment and expect a fulfillment in the future, for which there is no proof?

People argue that since the Romans didn’t desolate the temple in the 70th week, then it wasn’t fulfilled.

But the prophecy does not say that the desolation would happen during the 70th week.

Daniel 9:24 gives the list of things that would be fulfilled during the 70 weeks:

“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.“

Jesus sacrificial death as the Lamb of God and His resurrection, paid the price for their transgressions and sins; it reconciled believers to God; it gave believers everlasting righteousness in Jesus; it ended the Mosaic law and fulfilled all of the prophecies; and it anointed Jesus as their High Priest, who is the corner stone of the spiritual temple of God.
70th week of Daniel Prince deception summary

As you can see, the people of the prince to come that is prophesied in Daniel 9:26 was fulfilled when Jesus sent the Roman army to desolate the Jews who had rejected Him.

This completely invalidates the framework for an end-times Antichrist desolating a rebuilt Jewish temple.

And along with it, it invalidates the concepts of the 7-year tribulation period, the need for a rebuilt Jewish temple, the antichrist desecrating the temple

The 70th Week Of Daniel Prince Deception

BABerean2 said:

How do we know if a person has gone a bit far in the preterist direction?

Let us look at the clear timeline in Luke's Gospel found below.

Subtitles are from the NKJV

Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem


Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　


The coming of Christ is not found at the destruction and captivity of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
It comes after, based on Luke 21:24.

A time known as "the times of the Gentiles" is to be fulfilled after 70 AD.
Therefore, Christ remained seated at the Father's right hand during 70 AD, while God allowed the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and take those remaining alive captive.

Christ will return after "the times of the Gentiles" is concluded.

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　
Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　
Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　


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And still, there's other ways to look at this as well. Such as my thoughts per the following.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


This too shows Jerusalem being surrounded, except this is not meaning in the first century though. This is meaning the great trib that precedes the 2nd coming.

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


This too shows Jerusalem being trodden under foot by the Gentiles, but this has to be meaning at the end of this age since the text indicates this will be the case for 42 months. The 42 months mentioned here are obviously meaning the 42 months the beast reigns per Rev 13.


Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.


Daniel 12 places these events at the end of this age. Here too we see they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days---the same thing Luke 21:24 indicates.

Daniel 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

As to Daniel 11:33, we know the many days are referring to until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Which then according to Revelation 11:2 shall be 42 months, which in return is referring to the 42 months the beast in Rev 13 reigns.

But let's not stop here.

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Let's compare that with the following.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

So now we know from Revelation 13:5 what is meant in Daniel 11:36----and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished---that this is meaning this 42 months that is given unto him to continue.

But when one makes some of these things mainly about 70 AD, what these things are really connecting with, are missed altogether.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

This is referring to the AOD mentioned in Matt 24. Dan 12 places these things at the end of this age.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.


Verse 9 indicates these things are meant to take place at the time of the end. Verse 10 is referring to Daniel 11:35 for one, and that verse 11 in Dan 12, is referring to Daniel 11:31 for another. And like I already pointed out, verse 9 places these things at the time of the end.